1/12/2009 Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added)

[Nebula1]

Trading Ramon is a bad idea.

Not for Conley it's not. No chance. But you said we would be "selling the farm" if we traded him in a deal for Amare, so that is all I need to know about your opinion of Sessions.

Someone has to stick up for this kid.

And yes, it's a bad idea. I wouldn't include him in the deal for Amare. It could be done other ways. He's the right PG for that team.

Conley may turn out to be a nice player, but it's a lateral move at best right now.

[Nebula1]

Trading Ramon is a bad idea. If Kohl nixed it, then it's likely he'll be resigned. I'm not sure why there is a fear he's going to walk. Moves will be made to clear some space. I'd rather trade Ridnour anyway.

I'm not fearful that Ramon will walk, I just would like to acquire the player that I believe has the higher ceiling.

Conley has done little to show he has a higher ceiling. Fine that it's your belief, but it's not there. I'm backing our guy to the end. That's all there is to it. I find value in loyalty.

[emunney]

I've grown indifferent to this move, although I was pretty close to that to begin with. Conley's showing he's as capable as we knew he was all along, and Sessions looks like he'll have a long career as a good third guard at worst. I've voiced my thought on JA a million times -- next season will tell his story.

[AussieBuck]

I don't know why some are hyping up Sessions. To me he turns the ball over too often at crucial times. He had an awful game today and seems more like scoring guard than can dish out some assists.

I don't know if you only watch games very rarely, but he really doesn't turn the ball over that much. He and Ridnour turn it over at the same rate, and they both do a good job of protecting the ball compared to other NBA PGs.

I think icat hates every guard who has ever played for the Bucks. You also have to factor in that Sessions has played a fair bit of SG where his turnover rate is higher. He takes better care of the ball than Ridnour when only playing the 1.

[heynow]

Since Hollins has taken over and allowed Conley to actually play like a point guard.... is averg. 16.5ppg/5.5rpg/7.5apg with 3 turnovers in little over 30 mpg.
Just two games but Hollins has made a difference and reminds me of what happened here with TJ Ford.

Slightly off topic but an example of how bad franchises and people who cannot evaluate talent work.

The TJ Ford story....

THe Milwaukee Bucks burn a high deraft pick to take a high octane 6'0 155 pg out of Texas. Everyone on the planet realizes the only way he can be an effective player is in an up pace offense. THe best way to maximize his ability is to press and run. So the Bucks take him and the owner signs off on the pick.

He has a very good rookie season with a coach who recognize you need to push the ball and press with the young man at the pg position. He gets hurt late in his rookie season and misses all of his second season. THe team tanks in 04-05 after looking promising the previous season.
Get the number #1 pick over all and take a 7 footer with good skills for his size. HOwever just a season earlier we burned a high lottery pick on TJ Ford so we pass on Chris Paul, and we take Bogut. Means the direction we are going is to build around Ford and Bogut. Which means we press and push the ball and when that isn't there we look to feed the post and play off Bogut (whose best skill happened to be his ability to pass).....

So the Senator decides to fire a coach who has shown that he can coach Ford and seems to get that Bogut will need to be fed the ball.
However, Micheal Redd (the teams best scorer) is not happy with Porter. Porter has been tough on Redd demanding he play better defense and look to pass more to open teammates. Redd goes to the Owner and complains.

POrter is canned and replaced with Terry Stotts. A good guy and decent coach but someone who believes in a very structure offense built around motion and having 5 men on the floor who can square up and make a jump shot. Absolutely the worse for Ford, and one that will require Bogut to do things he has never been asked to do, mots notably to play facing the basket a great deal.

Redd puts up huge numbers, and the jump shooters do well in the new system. Ford is frustrated and struggles (not exactly a shock) and Bogut looks lost and confused and losses two years of his development trying to become a more consistent shooter from 15 feet from the basket (whatever the hell it was Stotts was trying to do with him).

Again decisions are made with no eye to the future. In hindsight it would be interesting to see what would have happened if Porter or a coach who believes in pressure basketball had been hired instead of Stotts who was apparently hired because when Karl and other members of his staff ignored the Owners questions about basketball, Stotts was the one guy nice enough to sit down with him and explain why Karl did certain things.

THat is my main problem that this trade didn't get made.
Hammonds and Skiles are suppose to be the basketball people.
Senator Kohl is the owner and he should do what owners do.
You are a fan and like me you have no idea what they are seeing that are missing.
Session is about as good as he is ever going to get. THat is likely the calculation they have made. I doubt very much they are making too many decisions with an eye to FAs in 2010 because the owner of this team will fire them both if this team doesn't make the playoffs.

THey probably wanted Conley because they knew the restrictions he was operating under in Memphis and believed that if they allowed him to play in Skiles system he would flourish.
The two guys who have played basketball, coached basketball and been front office guys for years. One of them has actually been involved in building a Championship team. Who around here has that on their resume?

The trade should have been made.
I f Hammonds isn't allowed to make decisions like this one, what the heck is his job? I will be shocked if Skiles makes it through this season before he says something that gets him fired.

[paul]

I enjoyed reading what you wrote but just a couple of things -Bogut was taken because he was the hands down without question number 1 pick. So much rewriting of the history books has been done here but virtually NO ONE was taking CP, some guys on here can name one or two analysts who suggested we should take Paul, you know why they can do that? Because there were literally only one or two analysts out of the hundreds who thought he should be number 1. Bogut was a virtual lock at 1 and the only other remotely popular choice at the time was Marvin WIlliams, not Paul. It's fun to live in hindsight but the reality was very different. I'd love to see CP in a Bucks uni, but it was a long way off happening, it certainly wasn't because a couple of seasons earlier we'd burned a lotto pick on TJ to the best of my knowledge.

Secondly and I don't mean to sound like a smartass here, but the guys name is John Hammond. So many people still type Hammonds after he's been discussed ad nauseum around here and has been in the job 6 months, I'm not picking on you it just annoys me.

[trwi7]

Secondly and I don't mean to sound like a smartass here, but the guys name is John Hammond. So many people still type Hammonds after he's been discussed ad nauseum around here and has been in the job 6 months, I'm not picking on you it just annoys me.

Quiet pauls.

[paul]

Secondly and I don't mean to sound like a smartass here, but the guys name is John Hammond. So many people still type Hammonds after he's been discussed ad nauseum around here and has been in the job 6 months, I'm not picking on you it just annoys me.

Quiet pauls.

[MikeIsGood]

You mean the old offense wasn't conducive to making Conley stand out?

I'm stun.

I'm still, as I always was, rather indifferent to the trade, but I thought that aspect was pretty obvious after watching a couple Memphis games. I'm not saying that Conley will turn out to be anywhere near as good, but it reminded me of all of the heat the few of us here took for standing up for Devin and doing what was - IMO - pointing out the obvious.

[Nebula1]

Just finished watching the Pacers game and anyone who wants to trade Ramon is crazy. He played 3 solid quarters and was really the heart of the team. He was after steals, made some nice passes and constantly attacked. He's probably our best young asset.

Simply and totally foolish to trade Ramon.

[BDUB_30]

I enjoyed reading what you wrote but just a couple of things -Bogut was taken because he was the hands down without question number 1 pick. So much rewriting of the history books has been done here but virtually NO ONE was taking CP, some guys on here can name one or two analysts who suggested we should take Paul, you know why they can do that? .

please dont tell the truth paul .. seriously, what the hell are you doing being honest ?


yeah its gets pretty ridiculas .. we rewirite history to bash our own team .. what kind of sense does that make ?


we have written off bogut as a bad pick , because we could of had paul .. Of course , its not mentioned ANYWHERE on this forum that paul was not mentioned ANYWHERE by ANYONE ..and the only debate was marvin vs bogut .. and funny , and fkn ironicaly enough .. .ALOT of people that are saying we should of drafted paul now , were saying we should of drafted williams THEN ! ..


i remember everything i read ...alot of people on here were barking for williams ..saying he is an " impact player " .. haha ...nobody was talking about paul , and the only people that didnt want bogut wanted williams ... ohh but NOW they want paul ...


unreal.

[rilamann]

Haha yea gotta love those ''hindisght'' guys.I honestly dont remember a single person anywhere who said Chris Paul should be the first or for that matter the second pick at the time of the 2005 draft.

Hell before last season everyone was saying the Jazz made the right choice to take Deron Williams over Paul.It wasnt until last season when Paul had an MVP season that these ''experts'' suddenly claimed that they where screaming for the Bucks to trade Ford and take Chris Paul with the #1 pick back in June of 2005.

The same thing happened with Glenn Robinson.Like Bdub just mentioned in another thread at the time of the 1994 NBA draft Glenn Robinson was the consensus #1 pick.I was at the BC for the draft party in '94 and when David Stern announced Glenn Robinson's name the place erupted like we just won game 7 of the NBA Finals.If the Bucks had taken Hill or Kidd I swear they would of had to bring in the riot police.

But of course a couple seasons later when Hill was getting all the hype and the Pistons where in the playoffs all the ''experts'' claimed they wanted Grant Hill at the time of the 1994 draft and the foolish Bucks took Glenn Robinson.


On the topic of the 1994 draft I remember someone on the jsonline board dont remember who it was but they mentioned that on the news the night of the draft a TV reporter was at the BC during the draft party getting Bucks fans opinions of how much money they should pay Big Dogg which was a big topic at the time as im sure most of you guys remember.

Of course Freeway was there and the reporter ran into him and asked Freeway how much he thought Robinson should be payed and Freeway looked right into the camera and said ''1 Million dollars'',it was the way he said it and the rumor was going around that Robinson was gonna ask for 100 million ,it was one of the funniest things I have ever seen.

Any of you guys remember that? The crazy thing is I actually recorded the news that night and had that freeway sound bite on tape....but I taped over it,I wish I still had that it would be pure youtube gold today haha.

[BDUB_30]

i remember the glenn robinson rookie year ..


and the stones were playing the bucks , and the bucks fans just HATED hill .. everytime he touched the ball we bood him , bango was messing with hill ...


man if you were a bucks fan back then you HATED GRANT HILL .. haha , good times ... i remmber going to house partys in racine and if had on one of them red grant hill jerseys you were gonna be in for a tough night ..racine always showed big dog alot of love .


i stuck with the big dog ...i thought he was pretty good , he didnt live up the expectations but man compared to some of our picks .. hes turned out to be one of the better ones ... i like the bogut pick to .. i think hes terrific and will keep getting better ...


the most messed up part is .. hill wouldnt of been the better pick ,. the dude got injured .... i mean how messed up is it if even with " hindsight " ya still cant get it right .. haha ..even kidd was questionable , how many teams now for kidd ? ...i mean none of these 3 guys really paid off for the teams that drafted them .or even their 2nd and 3rd teams they played for ....that draft was a wash and if ya really want to get tecnical ..id take what dog did for the bucks compared to what hill did for the stones or what jkidd did for the mavs .

[rilamann]

i remember the glenn robinson rookie year ..


and the stones were playing the bucks , and the bucks fans just HATED hill .. everytime he touched the ball we bood him , bango was messing with hill ...


man if you were a bucks fan back then you HATED GRANT HILL .. haha , good times ... i remmber going to house partys in racine and if had on one of them red grant hill jerseys you were gonna be in for a tough night ..racine always showed big dog alot of love .


i stuck with the big dog ...i thought he was pretty good , he didnt live up the expectations but man compared to some of our picks .. hes turned out to be one of the better ones ... i like the bogut pick to .. i think hes terrific and will keep getting better ...


the most messed up part is .. hill wouldnt of been the better pick ,. the dude got injured .... i mean how messed up is it if even with " hindsight " ya still cant get it right .. haha ..even kidd was questionable , how many teams now for kidd ? ...i mean none of these 3 guys really paid off for the teams that drafted them .or even their 2nd and 3rd teams they played for ....that draft was a wash and if ya really want to get tecnical ..id take what dog did for the bucks compared to what hill did for the stones or what jkidd did for the mavs .

Haha I remember that Pistons game it was a sell out,January of 1995.If I also remember correct the Bucks where riding like a 5 or 6 game winning streak at the time and there was a bunch of hype,everyone was hyped about the Bucks for the first time in awhile.

I was always a big dog fan one of my fav Bucks ever,I still say he got screwed out of rookie of the year.In March & April of his rookie year Dogg avg'd like 28 pts a game,Remember the Bucks also missed the playoffs by 1 game.

I know you remember that late season game his rookie year when he light up Jordan in #45 for 38pts and the Bucks beat the Bulls,that was a fun season after that 20-62 season in 1994.

[BDUB_30]

yeah i remember all of that stuff ...


i watched his carrer closely ..so many mistakes ..thats the other part of the equation .


even when we draft good , it doesnt just end the process . their is this little thing called developement .. and imo , we dont do good in that department . How many years did we have to watch glenn be a second option ? he was never the #1 option ...people could say he was limited offensivly and he was ..but he was far more versatile / gifted then the vin bakers and ray allens .

if im coaching that bucks team ..im teaching glenn to dribble 16 inches off the ground ( NOT 4 feet ) ..and im feeding the dog in a wide vareiety of ways .. off screans , off low box brush screans , pick and rolls , pick and pops , high post ....always trying to get him in tripple threat positon as close to the basket as possible ..


instead ..we watched vin baker and ray allen for the first 5-6 years of glenns carrer .....if thats not a flaw in talent development i dont know what is .

we have done basicaly the same thing to bogut ...now im not advocating bogut touch everytime down or any thing like that ..but its no secret that bogut in his first few years here has been isolated out of the offense .. and i know hes not aggressive enough down there but their has been times where he really should of goten the ball , and the entry passes arent made .. or he gets the pass , kicks it out , repositions , and the ball doesnt come back ... its situations like that that are killing our " franchise player " development .

[Ayt]

Haha yea gotta love those ''hindisght'' guys.I honestly dont remember a single person anywhere who said Chris Paul should be the first or for that matter the second pick at the time of the 2005 draft.

You don't remember people saying the Hawks were nuts for not taking Paul? How can you not remember that? Vitale flipped out on national TV during the draft after they picked Williams. They were a punching bag on RealGM for taking yet another SF to go along with all the other SFs they had at the time when there were two top notch PG prospects on the board for them to choose from.

Hell before last season everyone was saying the Jazz made the right choice to take Deron Williams over Paul.It wasnt until last season when Paul had an MVP season that these ''experts'' suddenly claimed that they where screaming for the Bucks to trade Ford and take Chris Paul with the #1 pick back in June of 2005.

It became something that was certainly debatable -- their were a lot of Paul vs. Williams threads on the general and player comparison boards -- but It certainly wasn't a consensus. Those threads were massive because people loved arguing about it so much. They still argued about it after Paul's MVP level season.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

Haha yea gotta love those ''hindisght'' guys.I honestly dont remember a single person anywhere who said Chris Paul should be the first or for that matter the second pick at the time of the 2005 draft.

Jay Bilas.

[LUKE23]

Everyone keeps saying they are lukewarm on this deal. Well, let me ask you this, if Hammond keeps RJ past the deadline, our chances of retaining Sessions are slim. Are you still lukewarm on it? Or would you rather have Alexander vs. Conley and the Lakers 2010 first rounder?

And everything at this point is leaning towards keeping RJ, from the sounds of it.

[heynow]

I enjoyed reading what you wrote but just a couple of things -Bogut was taken because he was the hands down without question number 1 pick. So much rewriting of the history books has been done here but virtually NO ONE was taking CP, some guys on here can name one or two analysts who suggested we should take Paul, you know why they can do that? Because there were literally only one or two analysts out of the hundreds who thought he should be number 1. Bogut was a virtual lock at 1 and the only other remotely popular choice at the time was Marvin WIlliams, not Paul. It's fun to live in hindsight but the reality was very different. I'd love to see CP in a Bucks uni, but it was a long way off happening, it certainly wasn't because a couple of seasons earlier we'd burned a lotto pick on TJ to the best of my knowledge.

Secondly and I don't mean to sound like a smartass here, but the guys name is John Hammond. So many people still type Hammonds after he's been discussed ad nauseum around here and has been in the job 6 months, I'm not picking on you it just annoys me.

You are absolutely right and not being a smart ass. His name is Hammond.
On Paul you are right again. NO one argued for him to b e taken with the #1 overall pick.
Yes people believed he made more sense for Atlanta which had no PG and about 7 SFs at the time as I remember.

Bogut was the obvious choice, just like hiring a coach who believed in pressing and running, and when forced to run half court offense you run it through your center.
I just wonder what might have happened if the Bucks had made a rational coaching choice and not allowed Redd to have his way. Maybe Redd, Ford and Bogut with a few smart additions here and there might have worked out and been a good combination. If a basketball decision had been made around Porter's firing and Stotts' hring.

[zmanishere11]

Haha yea gotta love those ''hindisght'' guys.I honestly dont remember a single person anywhere who said Chris Paul should be the first or for that matter the second pick at the time of the 2005 draft.

You don't remember people saying the Hawks were nuts for not taking Paul? How can you not remember that? Vitale flipped out on national TV during the draft after they picked Williams. They were a punching bag on RealGM for taking yet another SF to go along with all the other SFs they had at the time when there were two top notch PG prospects on the board for them to choose from.

Hell before last season everyone was saying the Jazz made the right choice to take Deron Williams over Paul.It wasnt until last season when Paul had an MVP season that these ''experts'' suddenly claimed that they where screaming for the Bucks to trade Ford and take Chris Paul with the #1 pick back in June of 2005.

It became something that was certainly debatable -- their were a lot of Paul vs. Williams threads on the general and player comparison boards -- but It certainly wasn't a consensus. Those threads were massive because people loved arguing about it so much. They still argued about it after Paul's MVP level season.

People gave the Hawks crap because they took another forward when all that team ever needed was a PG to be good. Plus, at the time, Marvin was considered to have the most "potential" in that draft.