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Chuk...he's jumped the shark with the hardcore fanbase. All the guys sitting around me were yelling "Pass it, Pass it" whenever Gooden got the ball in the second half of the scrimmage last night. We were entering territory reserved for Michael Redd.

He might have heard you. I noticed during the game that A) he didn't pass often, B) when he did pass some of them were Passive Aggressive Passes or Hubris Passes or some such. By that I mean he would receive the ball, fake an outside shot, and then whip it to a guard.

The pass seemed anti-climatic because it just reset the offense, not advance it, and it felt like his focus was on showing the world that he COULD have shot the ball right there, and was passing it out of kingly magnanimity.

So... combined with knocking teammates around, I don't know what's up with him. Should stop guessing. It will show itself soon enough.

(I won't be calling him Triple Double Drew unless there are further developments. On the other hand, I won't be capitulating to his being total trash until I see more.)

One thing to remember about the Redd/Mo back court. They would routinely get shut down by good defenses.

I can recall at the end of the 2006-07 season when we went on that huge run in December and won all those games to get our record back up to .500. Then we opened January against the Skiles defensive dominated Bulls and the defensive focused Mike Brown Cavs. And they would shut down our guys, we'd lose and have nothing to fall back on (i.e. defense).

The only games we'd win would be those where we could get hot and massively outscore the other teams. But remember when we'd go on those west coast trips and the supposedly far inferior backcourts like in Seattle, GS and Sacramento would all go off for career highs?

We just need a multi talented shooting guard that can also D up. Ala Brandon Roy in his prime. That type of player completes us.

[I'd speak up about how I really appreciate luke23's posts over the past few weeks, even though half of them differ from my views. But I worry that my praise would be devastating to his credibility here.]


[He seems to be soaring like an eagle; getting high enough to see things in a good context, with sharp vision to pull out significant details.]

[Anyone is welcome to the straight line, although it's a bit obvious.]

paulpressey25 wrote:One thing to remember about the Redd/Mo back court. They would routinely get shut down by good defenses.

I can recall at the end of the 2006-07 season when we went on that huge run in December and won all those games to get our record back up to .500. Then we opened January against the Skiles defensive dominated Bulls and the defensive focused Mike Brown Cavs. And they would shut down our guys, we'd lose and have nothing to fall back on (i.e. defense).

The only games we'd win would be those where we could get hot and massively outscore the other teams. But remember when we'd go on those west coast trips and the supposedly far inferior backcourts like in Seattle, GS and Sacramento would all go off for career highs?

We just need a multi talented shooting guard that can also D up. Ala Brandon Roy in his prime. That type of player completes us.

Is this based on opinion, personal observation, or stats? Mo and Redd were a bunch of chuckers, but in their prime, they were efficient chuckers. "good" defenses did NOT shut them down any more than other defenses. They got "shut down" when they shot poorly, which happens occasionally to jump shooters that take shots in volume. Look at Redd's playoff numbers against the Detroit Pistons. The same Pistons defense that won an NBA Championship...the same Pistons defense that is one of the best of the last decade.

Point is, I agree with whoever that said the best offensive players can expose the best defenses. That's the way the NBA is built...it favors the offensive player. The best offensive players, even on poor shooting nights against great defenses, can still get to the line and put up high FT numbers. It's the way the league is built.

Edit: And correct me if I'm wrong...but Redd dropped 52 points against that Scott Skiles defense you talked about. I'm not seeing any merit in your argument right now.

no matter who skiles coaches, they improve defensively. we've seen that over and over again.

it was a big part of the reason i was so annoyed that we traded mo before the season started, i wanted to see what would happen

jeremyd236 wrote:Edit: And correct me if I'm wrong...but Redd dropped 52 points against that Scott Skiles defense you talked about. I'm not seeing any merit in your argument right now.

Uhh, did we win that game? I don't know which one you are referring to. I do remember the 57 point, zero assist game we lost to Utah.

Here is one box from that stretch I'm referring to.

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=261229005

This was the stretch that ended with the first ACL tear when he tried to dunk.

I remember the Bulls game. How much did Gordon have again?

It's funny to use the Redd 52 point game as an example, when Gordon scored 48 on him and the team lost.

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap/_/id/27030 ... =270304015

What year is it?

Why the hell is anyone talking about Mo/Redd leading our current team?

6th ranked defense

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 10MIL.html

9th ranked defense

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 40MIL.html

Plenty of examples going both ways guys.

emunney wrote:Woj's latest column is baselessly accusing Stern of tipping the Clippers so that they'd have the highest bid for Billups. All this bitching about the league's reneg on the Laker deal is so funny to me. It's like, welcome to the world of the Milwaukee Bucks -- where owners nixing trades happens.

It's so foreign to everyone else, but everyone on this board is fluent in the language. Meddling owners nix deals. The Hornets have ALL OF THEM. How is this so shocking.

Great post.

These Redd/Mo offensive statements sound a bit like Chuck Norris jokes to me. I'll go with the better defender most everytime. It's a net game. It doesn't matter if you score 30 if you give up 32.

smauss wrote:These Redd/Mo offensive statements sound a bit like Chuck Norris jokes to me. I'll go with the better defender most everytime. It's a net game. It doesn't matter if you score 30 and give up 32.

It also doesn't matter if you give up 10 and score 8.

LUKE23 wrote:It's funny to use the Redd 52 point game as an example, when Gordon scored 48 on him and the team lost.

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap/_/id/27030 ... =270304015

That isn't the point, it's just to refute the idea that Redd and/or Mo couldn't score against good defenses. Yes, that WAS a Scott Skiles team.

And yeah, I remember that game vividly. Redd had a ton in the first half, then gave up a ton in the 2nd half. And of course we lost.

drew881 wrote:Blake Griffin's and Jordan's reaction to Paul trade:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqgzpdFiLNI[/youtube]

Jordan: Who'd we give up
Griffin: We don't care!

EG is putting 65 on the Clippers this season. Book it.

jeremyd236 wrote:
Is this based on opinion, personal observation, or stats? Mo and Redd were a bunch of chuckers, but in their prime, they were efficient chuckers. "good" defenses did NOT shut them down any more than other defenses. They got "shut down" when they shot poorly, which happens occasionally to jump shooters that take shots in volume. Look at Redd's playoff numbers against the Detroit Pistons. The same Pistons defense that won an NBA Championship...the same Pistons defense that is one of the best of the last decade.

Point is, I agree with whoever that said the best offensive players can expose the best defenses. That's the way the NBA is built...it favors the offensive player. The best offensive players, even on poor shooting nights against great defenses, can still get to the line and put up high FT numbers. It's the way the league is built.

Edit: And correct me if I'm wrong...but Redd dropped 52 points against that Scott Skiles defense you talked about. I'm not seeing any merit in your argument right now.

I am with PP here. It wasn't about team defense really. Detroit played good team defense but didn't have type of guards who could stop Redd. Same with Chicago if Hinrich defended Redd. Redd had trouble against strong/big guards who played good defense. Guys like Larry Hughes and Eric Snow for example.

Smurf wrote:

jeremyd236 wrote:
Is this based on opinion, personal observation, or stats? Mo and Redd were a bunch of chuckers, but in their prime, they were efficient chuckers. "good" defenses did NOT shut them down any more than other defenses. They got "shut down" when they shot poorly, which happens occasionally to jump shooters that take shots in volume. Look at Redd's playoff numbers against the Detroit Pistons. The same Pistons defense that won an NBA Championship...the same Pistons defense that is one of the best of the last decade.

Point is, I agree with whoever that said the best offensive players can expose the best defenses. That's the way the NBA is built...it favors the offensive player. The best offensive players, even on poor shooting nights against great defenses, can still get to the line and put up high FT numbers. It's the way the league is built.

Edit: And correct me if I'm wrong...but Redd dropped 52 points against that Scott Skiles defense you talked about. I'm not seeing any merit in your argument right now.

I am with PP here. It wasn't about team defense really. Detroit played good team defense but didn't have type of guards who could stop Redd. Same with Chicago if Hinrich defended Redd. Redd had trouble against strong/big guards who played good defense. Guys like Larry Hughes and Eric Snow for example.

Well then you're not really agreeing because he said "good defenses" and used the Skiles-led Bulls as an example, and Redd dropped 52 points on them.

I don't necessarily agree with the individual thing either, although it's more feasible. The best defenders in the NBA can generally shut down or slow down non-superstars. But I'll still remember like 5 years ago on Jim Rome, Kobe said Redd was the toughest player to guard in the NBA. So it's not like the elite defenders could still shut him down with ease or anything.

I personally think Redd, like most scorers, struggled against length. A guy like LRMAM could probably shut him down in his prime.

On a side (unrelated) note, does anyone know where I could get the video of the Bucks with TJ Ford, Gadzuric, and Mason going off at the end of the first half? The one with the bounce alley oop.

I've been looking on youtube but can't find it.

SupremeHustle wrote:

drew881 wrote:Blake Griffin's and Jordan's reaction to Paul trade:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqgzpdFiLNI[/youtube]

Jordan: Who'd we give up
Griffin: We don't care!

EG is putting 65 on the Clippers this season. Book it.

Actually, I think he is talking to the lady who says they are blocking traffic.

SupremeHustle wrote:

drew881 wrote:Blake Griffin's and Jordan's reaction to Paul trade:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqgzpdFiLNI[/youtube]

Jordan: Who'd we give up
Griffin: We don't care!

EG is putting 65 on the Clippers this season. Book it.

LOL agreed, though Jordan handled it pretty well but Griffin not so much, Gordon won't be enjoying watching that.