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Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong

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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1661 » by Kanyewest » Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:34 pm

montestewart wrote:hands, you keep incorrectly assigning the Wizards getting the #1 pick to some sort of brilliantly executed tank, no matter how many times I and others point out the contrary, complete with links to contemporaneous articles.

Leonsis did not want to pay the Pollin estate's asking price, citing the long term payroll. The estate ordered Grunfeld to make deals to move long term contracts, which he did pretty well, though he got little in return for adding major pieces to contenders.

Every sucky team is not a brilliant tank. The Wizards were a sucky team that luckily got Wall, the consensus #1 pick. As for the last part, just a little Wiz board satire. Don't be so negative.

Go Wiz!


In retrospect, I think the Wizards did fairly well in those trades as they dumped a lot of salary. In Big Z's buyout, the Wizards leveraged a favorable buyout where I believe that they didn't have to pay him anything. The Wizards got a first round pick for Jamison's contract which was pretty much a terrible asset. And while Dallas eventually won the NBA Finals, DeShawn Stevenson was the only guy contributing on that team when the NBA Finals rolled around.

BTW, I'm not sure if the Wizards were that terrible post trade- things did start to fall apart for the Wizards when Josh Howard got injured.

You may be right though that the Wizards accidentally rolled onto that #1 pick. Seems to be usually the case for teams that end up with favorable assets including teams that got the draft rights to Tim Duncan, Kevin Durant, etc.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1662 » by payitforward » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:49 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
TGW wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
Not sure what happenned to Jan Vesely though. According to hands11, it was Jan NOT John Wall that would soon be the heart and soul of the Wizards. I guess we can't always have 20/20 foresight. :wink:


:lol:

If you just keep saying that this is the year and this is the player, eventually you will be right - and you can have your told you so moment :)

Hands remembers times he was right more easily than times he was wrong. That doesn't make him any different from anyone else.

What does seem to make him different is his refusal to accept that fact! He is convinced that those mistakes weren't real.

Finally, when he's pushed to remember mistakes, he almost always replies that, really, it's just that he's a Wizards fan, so he sticks with our guys -- in other words, he wants you to take that for a virtue on his part!
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1663 » by Nivek » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:08 pm

That season Grunfeld so skillfully executed the strategic tank to get Wall was the one that began with him trading the team's first round pick for Foye and Miller, and signing Oberto. Those were moves that Grunfeld thought would get the team back in the playoffs.

That team was awful from the start. So bad that eventually dumping contracts was the only option.

And, of course, the organization tanked so skillfully that it won 5 of its final 8 games to finish with the fourth worst record.

The Wizards got lucky and drew the top pick, which they used to select Wall. I'm not knocking luck -- it was about damn time this franchise got some good luck for a change.

But, to suggest that obtaining Wall involved some kind of strategic thought by Grunfeld (or anyone else in the organization) is either delusional or dishonest.

All that said, Grunfeld and the organization did a nice job this offseason re-signing Gortat at a fair price, acquiring Humprhies on the cheap, and replacing Ariza with Pierce (who has thus far had more life in his body than I anticipated).

The concern going forward is that moving this team from "pretty good" to "contender" will take additional good moves by Grunfeld. His record doesn't give me a lot of confidence in him making those decisions. But we'll see. He did well this offseason. Maybe he can do it again.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1664 » by Brenice » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:48 am

Nivek wrote:That season Grunfeld so skillfully executed the strategic tank to get Wall was the one that began with him trading the team's first round pick for Foye and Miller, and signing Oberto. Those were moves that Grunfeld thought would get the team back in the playoffs.

That team was awful from the start. So bad that eventually dumping contracts was the only option.

And, of course, the organization tanked so skillfully that it won 5 of its final 8 games to finish with the fourth worst record.

The Wizards got lucky and drew the top pick, which they used to select Wall. I'm not knocking luck -- it was about damn time this franchise got some good luck for a change.

But, to suggest that obtaining Wall involved some kind of strategic thought by Grunfeld (or anyone else in the organization) is either delusional or dishonest.

All that said, Grunfeld and the organization did a nice job this offseason re-signing Gortat at a fair price, acquiring Humprhies on the cheap, and replacing Ariza with Pierce (who has thus far had more life in his body than I anticipated).

The concern going forward is that moving this team from "pretty good" to "contender" will take additional good moves by Grunfeld. His record doesn't give me a lot of confidence in him making those decisions. But we'll see. He did well this offseason. Maybe he can do it again.


Cleveland was so stategic that they exiled LeBron to South Beach because they did not have any talent to surround him as they knew they would win the lottery 3 times, acquiring enough talent to bring him back. San Antonio was strategic enough to injure Robinson so they could win the lottery and draft Duncan. OKC deserves credit for drafting Durant.

The only team that is lucky is Washington in drafting Wall. In fact, historically Washington has been the luckiest team in the NBA when in the lottery. Ernie just messed up and didn't draft Anthony Davis.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1665 » by montestewart » Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:59 am

Brenice wrote:
Nivek wrote:That season Grunfeld so skillfully executed the strategic tank to get Wall was the one that began with him trading the team's first round pick for Foye and Miller, and signing Oberto. Those were moves that Grunfeld thought would get the team back in the playoffs.

That team was awful from the start. So bad that eventually dumping contracts was the only option.

And, of course, the organization tanked so skillfully that it won 5 of its final 8 games to finish with the fourth worst record.

The Wizards got lucky and drew the top pick, which they used to select Wall. I'm not knocking luck -- it was about damn time this franchise got some good luck for a change.

But, to suggest that obtaining Wall involved some kind of strategic thought by Grunfeld (or anyone else in the organization) is either delusional or dishonest.

All that said, Grunfeld and the organization did a nice job this offseason re-signing Gortat at a fair price, acquiring Humprhies on the cheap, and replacing Ariza with Pierce (who has thus far had more life in his body than I anticipated).

The concern going forward is that moving this team from "pretty good" to "contender" will take additional good moves by Grunfeld. His record doesn't give me a lot of confidence in him making those decisions. But we'll see. He did well this offseason. Maybe he can do it again.


Cleveland was so stategic that they exiled LeBron to South Beach because they did not have any talent to surrounding him as they knew they would win the lottery 3 times, acquiring enough talent to bring him back. San Antonio was strategic enough to injure Robinson so they could win the lottery and draft Duncan. OKC deserves credit for drafting Duran5.

The only team that is lucky is Washington in drafting Wall. In fact, historically Washington has been the luckiest team in the NBA win in the lottery. Ernie just messed up and didn't draft Anthony Davis.

EG is truly a moron for not drafting Anthony Davis.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1666 » by milellie111 » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:34 pm

montestewart wrote:
milellie111 wrote:Wall was not an obvious pick but a smart pick. I could see if he was the only skilled player in the draft. Look at the other guys in the 2010 draft that are also having huge impact on their teams such as Paul George and Demarcus Cousins.

Not sure what "obvious" and "smart" mean here. Wall was the near consensus #1 pick for virtually his entire college career. By the time of the draft, I can't think of any major mock draft that had him as anything other than #1. WoW said Demarcus Cousins was better, and I wouldn't have faulted them for rolling with that, though it could easily have backfired so it made sense to pass on him hoping for a more mature roster. Don't recall anyone else in the national media pushing hard for anyone other than Wall at #1, and on this board, CCJ was the only one I recall strongly suggesting alternatives (drafting Cousins or trading for Evans, Iguodala, and a future 1st).

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/05/18/consensus.mock/

Maybe Wall wasn't an obvious pick, but he was the one most people predicted, he was the one most people thought was the best pick, and he was the one most people would have chosen were it their pick to make. I'm generally not too concerned about how Grunfeld uses top picks. It's when he's picking outside the top three that worries me. The Wizards apparently have a great (or near-great) player in Wall, and in Beal and Porter they have players that can partner with him for years to come. When they are all (with Gortat) at their veteran salaries, how will EG use late 1st and 2nd round picks? That's where he's been at his worst, and it will be pretty important as Wall/Beal/Porter mature, Nene and Miller depart, and the team needs low cost bigs, backup PGs and shooters to sustain or even get to the next level.

By adding Humphries, Pierce, and Butler, Grunfeld has his best FA signing season ever (that I can recall). Maybe that's the new norm for him, but I'm not counting on it, so the drafting issue will continue to be a concern for me. I'll be happily surprised if it turns out not to be an issue. Maybe he'll just trade all the picks away: problem solved!

Go Wiz!

PS: The Wizards are on pace for more than 60 wins. Based on the preseason predictions, everyone was a doubter. Negative naysayers such as hands11 and DCZards predicted a paltry 50 wins, and Dr. Depresso himself, LyricalRico, only offered a measly 46 win prediction. (Come on LR, what kind of lame fan would predict 46 wins!) I would say that perhaps the Wizards can't sustain that pace, and maybe Zards was right, but that might come off sounding like doubt, so I'll hope they can sustain that pace and congratulate the only true fan with the optimism, courage, and vision to predict a win total in the neighborhood of the Wizards' actual win pace. Let's hear it for the fan of the year: payitforward!

By the way, what did you predict? I can't seem to find your name (or Brenice's name) on the preseason prediction list. Last minute doubts?


I didn't predict anything in season Wins/Losses. I knew this team could be just as good if not better than last year. I figured Wall and Beal would take another leap forward. Things are unpredictable because injuries can happen at anytime to star players (OKC, CHI).

However, Grunfeld has done a great job of providing depth at key positions (Center/PF/SF) in the event that Nene/Gortat/Pierce goes down, guys like Humphries, Gooden, and Rasual Butler can come in and this team will still make the playoffs. All acquired on the cheap.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1667 » by Dat2U » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:46 pm

Brenice wrote:
Nivek wrote:That season Grunfeld so skillfully executed the strategic tank to get Wall was the one that began with him trading the team's first round pick for Foye and Miller, and signing Oberto. Those were moves that Grunfeld thought would get the team back in the playoffs.

That team was awful from the start. So bad that eventually dumping contracts was the only option.

And, of course, the organization tanked so skillfully that it won 5 of its final 8 games to finish with the fourth worst record.

The Wizards got lucky and drew the top pick, which they used to select Wall. I'm not knocking luck -- it was about damn time this franchise got some good luck for a change.

But, to suggest that obtaining Wall involved some kind of strategic thought by Grunfeld (or anyone else in the organization) is either delusional or dishonest.

All that said, Grunfeld and the organization did a nice job this offseason re-signing Gortat at a fair price, acquiring Humprhies on the cheap, and replacing Ariza with Pierce (who has thus far had more life in his body than I anticipated).

The concern going forward is that moving this team from "pretty good" to "contender" will take additional good moves by Grunfeld. His record doesn't give me a lot of confidence in him making those decisions. But we'll see. He did well this offseason. Maybe he can do it again.


Cleveland was so stategic that they exiled LeBron to South Beach because they did not have any talent to surrounding him as they knew they would win the lottery 3 times, acquiring enough talent to bring him back. San Antonio was strategic enough to injure Robinson so they could win the lottery and draft Duncan. OKC deserves credit for drafting Duran5.

The only team that is lucky is Washington in drafting Wall. In fact, historically Washington has been the luckiest team in the NBA win in the lottery. Ernie just messed up and didn't draft Anthony Davis.


Did you know Cleveland fired their GM that guided them to 3 lottery wins before they got LeBron back? They recognized luck from skill and have a new GM in charge now.

San Antonio's tank was actually strategic. They were expected to be a rock solid playoff team before losing Duncan for the year. They won 59 games the year before and dropped to 20 wins. That's the year they fired Bob Hill and Pop went from GM to coach.

Nice try on the rebuttal tho...
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1668 » by Brenice » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:34 pm

Dat2U wrote: Did you know Cleveland fired their GM that guided them to 3 lottery wins before they got LeBron back? They recognized luck from skill and have a new GM in charge now.

San Antonio's tank was actually strategic. They were expected to be a rock solid playoff team before losing Duncan for the year. They won 59 games the year before and dropped to 20 wins. That's the year they fired Bob Hill and Pop went from GM to coach.

Nice try on the rebuttal tho...


Did you know that no matter what San Antonio or Cleveland did in those situations, they did not know they would get the first pick for Duncan(Spurs) or win the lottery 3 times in what, 4 years(Cavs). Was it strategy or luck? It is not as though they were the odds on favorites during the lottery. I don't care what the Spurs front office looked like, without Duncan they would not be the Spurs as we now know them. Same for Popovich. Ginobli, Parker, and Pop and winning ANYTHING without Duncan. LUCK. Duncan had to be available to. Sure the Wizards got lucky with Wall. But over the course of 2 decades worth of bad luck. How many times did the wizards DROP from where they should have drafted because of the lottery. BAD LUCK. The fact of the matter is you have to be lucky and you need players available. One of these Cav #1#1's was a mediocre player in a mediocre draft. So to hold Ernie to a different standard than everyone else is agenda-driven. YOU NEED LUCK. More luck, Durant for OKC after Portland selected Oden.

How many teams won a championship without a first team all NBA player/first ballot hall-of-famer, in the history of the NBA? Detroit in 2 different decades is about it.

LeBron - Miami
Duncan - Spurs
Kobe - Lakers
Garnett - Celtics
Wade - Miami
Lakers - Shaq
Olajuwon - Houston
Jordan - Bulls
Magic - Lakers
Bird - Boston

It is Ernie's fault he passed on players like that.

Nice try on the rebuttal...tho
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1669 » by hands11 » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:35 pm

Dat2U wrote:
payitforward wrote:
hands11 wrote:...Reality is, they tanked to get that #1 (i.e. Wall) which was smart.
Every GM in a rebuild wants the #1 in a draft so they can get that franchise player.
Then they drafted every draft with the idea of building around him and developing his game.

As for my prediction. I explained my logic in the predictions thread. Ended up at 52 and rounded down to 50 because of Beal being out and figuring they would need some time to gel. Plus a stronger East. Time will tell if that is accurate. And its not just what you predicted, its when you did it.

Hands, were you alive way back in 2010? :)

How can you say "they tanked to get that #1"??? Far from it. They made a bunch of moves one year earlier w/ the goal of going deep in the playoffs based on veterans -- presumably because their departing owner wanted a last hurrah in his dotage. Bad moves, and I think we probably all hated them -- after all, we're NOT in our dotage!

That didn't work out at all -- and then we held a fire sale towards the end of a lost season -- w/ a no-future roster and a new owner coming on board. There was no planned "tank" -- the opposite.

Moreover, "Reality is..." (to use your words) that we didn't "get" that pick. We got a high pick, yes, we were an awful team. But the ping pong balls gave us #1. You can't "plan" to have the ping pong balls catapult you.

In other words, "Reality is" that we made awful moves for awful reasons, failed, then had the dice roll in our direction. Chance favored us. And, what if we'd gotten #2 instead of #1. Likely we'd have picked Turner. Then the following year, we could have followed your idea and added Marcus Morris.

Put your pick of Alex Len in the mix, and maybe we'd have had the #1 in 2014? :) It's all part of the plan.


Thanks for setting the record straight. Someone else trying to rewrite history in their own narrative. But that's hands11 MO. He's always ahead of the curve, guiding us lowly idiots towards perfect fandom. :lol:

Not sure what happened to Jan Vesely though. According to hands11, it was Jan NOT John Wall that would soon be the heart and soul of the Wizards. I guess we can't always have 20/20 foresight. :wink:


Spin Spin Spin. Setting the record straight :nonono:

I know its tough for you guys to swallow all the wrong that you have spewed since in fact, the team has turned it around since Ted took over and I was pointing that out all along the way.

And just because dumping expensive players worked well for a transfer of the team doesn't mean along with that they weren't also calculating they would get a high pick and rebuild through the draft. The two are not mutually exclusive. Actually, it common sense they work well together. Of course getting a high pick was part of that calculation and of course they would want to clean up their cap as well. The owner laid it out in his detail plan that he not only put in writing but spoke about many times. The same plan many of you attacked as BS.

Hell, I was talking about waiting for the day this would happens even before Abe passed. I was hoping Ted would rebuild properly. And I was hoping EG would prove to be a better GM under Ted then he was under Abe. Its a front office. Not just a GM. GMs mostly execute the plan inked by the owner. Time frame. Max salaries. You know I detailed all of this lots of times and you disagreed all along the way. This is not rewriting anything. You have been wrong. I have been right. Be a man and own up.

Nice try. Actually, no.. your spin here and attempt to character assassinate me to cover up for how wrong you have been is weak.

Actually, I fully expected this would happen and have talked with other board members about expecting it so post like this only reenforce my ability to predict what will happen next.

The always wrong side have been run into a corner. They aren't going to just turn around and give props to the people that were getting it right and going against the flow. Specially people like me who were so vocal about it. No, they will try to deflect and spin things and clown the board with disinformation.

You guys should go into politics or go to work for Fox Noise.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1670 » by Dat2U » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:54 pm

hands11 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
payitforward wrote:Hands, were you alive way back in 2010? :)

How can you say "they tanked to get that #1"??? Far from it. They made a bunch of moves one year earlier w/ the goal of going deep in the playoffs based on veterans -- presumably because their departing owner wanted a last hurrah in his dotage. Bad moves, and I think we probably all hated them -- after all, we're NOT in our dotage!

That didn't work out at all -- and then we held a fire sale towards the end of a lost season -- w/ a no-future roster and a new owner coming on board. There was no planned "tank" -- the opposite.

Moreover, "Reality is..." (to use your words) that we didn't "get" that pick. We got a high pick, yes, we were an awful team. But the ping pong balls gave us #1. You can't "plan" to have the ping pong balls catapult you.

In other words, "Reality is" that we made awful moves for awful reasons, failed, then had the dice roll in our direction. Chance favored us. And, what if we'd gotten #2 instead of #1. Likely we'd have picked Turner. Then the following year, we could have followed your idea and added Marcus Morris.

Put your pick of Alex Len in the mix, and maybe we'd have had the #1 in 2014? :) It's all part of the plan.


Thanks for setting the record straight. Someone else trying to rewrite history in their own narrative. But that's hands11 MO. He's always ahead of the curve, guiding us lowly idiots towards perfect fandom. :lol:

Not sure what happened to Jan Vesely though. According to hands11, it was Jan NOT John Wall that would soon be the heart and soul of the Wizards. I guess we can't always have 20/20 foresight. :wink:


Spin Spin Spin. Setting the record straight :nonono:

I know its tough for you guys to swallow all the wrong that you have spewed since in fact, the team has turned it around since Ted took over and I was pointing that out all along the way.

Nice try. Actually, no.. your spin here and attempt to character assassinate me to cover up for how wrong you have been is weak.

You guys should go into politics or go to work for Fox Noise.


Spin what? Are you saying you did not say what I said you said?

I'm sure people would have no problem giving you credit for getting some things right if you weren't such a pompous windbag who's apparently never wrong about anything.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1671 » by montestewart » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:02 pm

Relax hands. The failure to publicly give credit where credit is due, that's just board politics as usual. In private conversations, you can rest assured you've been getting your poops.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1672 » by hands11 » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:26 pm

Dat2U wrote:
hands11 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
Thanks for setting the record straight. Someone else trying to rewrite history in their own narrative. But that's hands11 MO. He's always ahead of the curve, guiding us lowly idiots towards perfect fandom. :lol:

Not sure what happened to Jan Vesely though. According to hands11, it was Jan NOT John Wall that would soon be the heart and soul of the Wizards. I guess we can't always have 20/20 foresight. :wink:


Spin Spin Spin. Setting the record straight :nonono:

I know its tough for you guys to swallow all the wrong that you have spewed since in fact, the team has turned it around since Ted took over and I was pointing that out all along the way.

Nice try. Actually, no.. your spin here and attempt to character assassinate me to cover up for how wrong you have been is weak.

You guys should go into politics or go to work for Fox Noise.


Spin what? Are you saying you did not say what I said you said?

I'm sure people would have no problem giving you credit for getting some things right if you weren't such a pompous windbag who's apparently never wrong about anything.


More spin. I admit when I am wrong about things. I even go out of my way to highlight it. Attempting to make that an issue is more deflecting spin.

As for pompous.. come on DAT. You think you aren't pompous as well as several others here I won't drag their names into ?

pompous isn't the issue. What's at issue is that people posted their positions as active members of the board and as active members posting views, posters gain a rep for being right or wrong and well as other things they contribute like the weather or a jinx or Nivs numbers.

But in the end, we all chimed in with predictions and took sides on how this rebuild would go and where the team was headed. No one got every detail right but I happen to take the right side and promoted that view. Others took the wrong side and busted on the team for every little move they made. They also continually look at the wrong set of data to project where they would be next at almost every turn. At the player level and the team level.

Well here we are. Stage 4. Best start in 40 years. A pretty solid foundation. Several options for continuing to build. And 3/4 of a season to play to see what they really have.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1673 » by Nivek » Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:04 pm

Brenice wrote:
Nivek wrote:That season Grunfeld so skillfully executed the strategic tank to get Wall was the one that began with him trading the team's first round pick for Foye and Miller, and signing Oberto. Those were moves that Grunfeld thought would get the team back in the playoffs.

That team was awful from the start. So bad that eventually dumping contracts was the only option.

And, of course, the organization tanked so skillfully that it won 5 of its final 8 games to finish with the fourth worst record.

The Wizards got lucky and drew the top pick, which they used to select Wall. I'm not knocking luck -- it was about damn time this franchise got some good luck for a change.

But, to suggest that obtaining Wall involved some kind of strategic thought by Grunfeld (or anyone else in the organization) is either delusional or dishonest.

All that said, Grunfeld and the organization did a nice job this offseason re-signing Gortat at a fair price, acquiring Humprhies on the cheap, and replacing Ariza with Pierce (who has thus far had more life in his body than I anticipated).

The concern going forward is that moving this team from "pretty good" to "contender" will take additional good moves by Grunfeld. His record doesn't give me a lot of confidence in him making those decisions. But we'll see. He did well this offseason. Maybe he can do it again.


Cleveland was so stategic that they exiled LeBron to South Beach because they did not have any talent to surrounding him as they knew they would win the lottery 3 times, acquiring enough talent to bring him back. San Antonio was strategic enough to injure Robinson so they could win the lottery and draft Duncan. OKC deserves credit for drafting Duran5.

The only team that is lucky is Washington in drafting Wall. In fact, historically Washington has been the luckiest team in the NBA win in the lottery. Ernie just messed up and didn't draft Anthony Davis.


Cleveland bumbled their way into Lebron, bumbled their way out of Lebron, and bumbled their way back into him. If they hadn't bumbled their way back into him, they'd likely suck because Anthony Bennett was a bad pick (though he could still work his way into being a good player if he wants it bad enough), and Andrew Wiggins is a work in progress. Their biggest "strategic" advantage was to be in a place where Lebron was from and where he wanted to return. Oh wait, that's luck. :) They've been exceedingly lucky, and would be further along if they'd made better use of their draft picks. I mean, they STILL seem to think Dion Waiters is pretty good. :noway:

The Spurs get no credit from me for lucking into Duncan, even with their semi-strategic tank. Since then, however, I think it would be reasonable to conclude they've done a first-rate job putting talent around Duncan, which has enabled them to have a sustained run of excellence. A lot of teams passed on Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Kawhi Leonard, Tiago Splitter, Danny Green, Matt Bonner, Cory Joseph, and Boris Diaw (and others). Any schmuck could've picked Duncan. Not just anyone could have repeatedly assembled rosters to keep a Duncan-led team in perennial title contention. There have been other players with similar attributes and production whose teams didn't do as well. I'm sure you could make a list just as easily as I could.

The Wizards did get lucky to get Wall. And Beal. And Porter. Getting Gortat was fortunate too, and resulted from bad decision-making from the GM, who failed to add frontcourt depth that offseason despite relying on two 30+ year old big men. No complaints from me about Gortat. Like PIF, and some others here, I've long thought Gortat was a good player, and I'd have been happy to have him on the Wizards. But, I recognize that his acquisition was a panic move from a team that had a poor offseason and had to scramble for a plan B when Okafor got hurt.

The move for Nenê has worked about the way I thought it would -- the expensive decline portion of his career. Still a useful player when he's healthy, especially on defense, but his production is obviously down and his health is iffy. I hope they continue using him off the bench. I wasn't exactly heart-broken to see McGee depart in that deal. Since the trade, he appears to be in the expensive decline portion of his career as well.

Again, Grunfeld deserves full credit for the excellent work he did this offseason to get Humprhies on the cheap and to get Pierce at the MLE. Humphries has played well and should remain in the starting lineup. Pierce has been everything the Wizards could have hoped he'd be at this point.

However, Grunfeld didn't become the GM this summer. He has a sizable record to evaluate, and when I look at that record, it doesn't inspire confidence that he'll continue to make good decisions in the future. At least not to me. Folks can slice and dice Grunfeld's record however they want. I hope it makes you happy, and I hope you're right. I want the Wizards to win, and if they win a title, I'll be just as pleased if it's Grunfeld at the helm or if it's Someone Else. I'm just saying that based on his record, I'm not confident in him.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1674 » by Brenice » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:36 pm

Nivek wrote:
However, Grunfeld didn't become the GM this summer. He has a sizable record to evaluate, and when I look at that record, it doesn't inspire confidence that he'll continue to make good decisions in the future. At least not to me. Folks can slice and dice Grunfeld's record however they want. I hope it makes you happy, and I hope you're right. I want the Wizards to win, and if they win a title, I'll be just as pleased if it's Grunfeld at the helm or if it's Someone Else. I'm just saying that based on his record, I'm not confident in him.


I have no problem with this stance. I just give Ernie a clean slate under Ted.

I remember the hopelessness dating back since the 70's. I remember trying to flagrant foul Rick Barry trying to bait him into a fight so he would get kicked out of game 4 of the Finals as we were being swept because he was killing the Bullets. I remember Bullets Fever and The Opera Isn't Over Til the Fat Lady Sings. I remember the 80's. I remember Bob Ferry. The Beef Brothers, Jeff Malone, Charles Jones at center. I remember not drafting the Mailman. I remember John Williams tearing his knee up and promptly eating his way out of the league after turning into John "Hot Plate" Williams. I remember the 90's. I remember being leapfrogged year after year in draft lotteries, always laying 1 draft slot below the star players available. I remember a 4 star player draft where the Wizards were one of the 4 worst teams, only to be leapfrogged by 3 teams landing them at the 5th position. I remember John Nash. I remember promoting other teams stars. I remember Manute and Muggsy. I remember Wes as GM being told by Abe to trade Webber and the no value return on that asset, breaking up a potential dynasty in the making according to Jordan. I remember Ernie under Abe. Ernie under Abe brought the Wizards the most franchise success since the 70's with Agent 0 and the Big 3. Which brings me to...

Ernie under Ted. Ernie under Ted is ALREADY looking better than the 30 year peak since the 70's, Ernie under Abe Gilbert, Hughes, Caron, Antawn years. Ernie under Ted is outproducing close to 40 years of Bullet/Wizard misery. The best young backcourt in NBA in the House of Guards. I'm seeing Ted and his GM Ernie in the future. I remember the past too. I'm looking forward. I'm looking forward to competing in the conference finals for the NBA Finals.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1675 » by Nivek » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:53 pm

Thanks for calling up all those lousy memories, Brenice.

:D
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1676 » by milellie111 » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:08 pm

Abe Pollin had a direct bearing on the moves Grunfeld made. We saw a distinct change in vision when Ted took over the helm. The production on the court now has come to fruition. That alone is evidence that Ernie was not to blame.

Ernie is being wrongly blamed for the mess that festered on for years but you have to go higher and take a look at ownership. A GM can't manage if he isn't properly allowed to. Same issue with the Redskins. It is unfair to judge Grunfeld from the past. An accurate assessment of his work is the present.

Ernie made it clear who he reported to which in turn influenced many moves that didn't pan out. Skip to 2:05:


[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnk_gB-yrOE[/youtube]
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1677 » by hands11 » Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:26 pm

Brenice wrote:
Nivek wrote:
However, Grunfeld didn't become the GM this summer. He has a sizable record to evaluate, and when I look at that record, it doesn't inspire confidence that he'll continue to make good decisions in the future. At least not to me. Folks can slice and dice Grunfeld's record however they want. I hope it makes you happy, and I hope you're right. I want the Wizards to win, and if they win a title, I'll be just as pleased if it's Grunfeld at the helm or if it's Someone Else. I'm just saying that based on his record, I'm not confident in him.


I have no problem with this stance. I just give Ernie a clean slate under Ted.

I remember the hopelessness dating back since the 70's. I remember trying to flagrant foul Rick Barry trying to bait him into a fight so he would get kicked out of game 4 of the Finals as we were being swept because he was killing the Bullets. I remember Bullets Fever and The Opera Isn't Over Til the Fat Lady Sings. I remember the 80's. I remember Bob Ferry. The Beef Brothers, Jeff Malone, Charles Jones at center. I remember not drafting the Mailman. I remember John Williams tearing his knee up and promptly eating his way out of the league after turning into John "Hot Plate" Williams. I remember the 90's. I remember being leapfrogged year after year in draft lotteries, always laying 1 draft slot below the star players available. I remember a 4 star player draft where the Wizards were one of the 4 worst teams, only to be leapfrogged by 3 teams landing them at the 5th position. I remember John Nash. I remember promoting other teams stars. I remember Manute and Muggsy. I remember Wes as GM being told by Abe to trade Webber and the no value return on that asset, breaking up a potential dynasty in the making according to Jordan. I remember Ernie under Abe. Ernie under Abe brought the Wizards the most franchise success since the 70's with Agent 0 and the Big 3. Which brings me to...

Ernie under Ted. Ernie under Ted is ALREADY looking better than the 30 year peak since the 70's, Ernie under Abe Gilbert, Hughes, Caron, Antawn years. Ernie under Ted is outproducing close to 40 years of Bullet/Wizard misery. The best young backcourt in NBA in the House of Guards. I'm seeing Ted and his GM Ernie in the future. I remember the past too. I'm looking forward. I'm looking forward to competing in the conference finals for the NBA Finals.


And I remember all that as well. Nice summary Brenice. I honestly think some are so traumatized from 40 years of Abe that they couldn't get on the bus. They even fell victim to an idea the franchise was jinxed. When in fact, it was only a crappy owner. Just like the Redskins are now under the influence of. Its not bad luck only, its bad ownership/management.

And yes, the fact Ted and EG have performed much better then Abe/EFJ/EG or Abe/MJ or Abe/Wes isnt big a surprise. Why ? Because a franchise start from the owner and how they set the tone, structure, time line and who they commit max dollars to, etc. The big thing that is different between all those other front offices and this new one is Abe vs Ted which I have pointed out at least 100 times and have commented on over a 4 year period while some here objected to this framing of the dynamics.

In my view, giving all the credit to EG is as big a mistake as blaming him for all the mistakes before. Front offices are a team and the team start with the owner. Something that shouldn't be new to read from me. I didn't doubt EG would look better as a GM with a better owner. My big questions were: would Ted just not suck or would be actually be good and would EG be able to mix the right skills and personalities in the latter stages of the rebuild...i.e. once they got to stage 3 and stage 4. Well, to date, he seems to be doing a good job with the later stage moves. The last additions of Otto, Gortat, A Miller, Paul Peirce, Gooden, Hump, Rasaul, and Blair are all quality acquisitions. The only one I really questions is Rice. That one doesn't fit like the others.

Ted and EG are going to start getting some positive pixels and press for what they have done. The press will eat their crow and get on the bandwagon. Both will start getting moved up those front office rankings. And at the end of it, its Ted that should get a tone of credit. He stuck his neck out and cut against the grain. He kept EG when everyone was calling for his neck. And EG kept Randy when that was popular either. But that even comes back to Ted.

Us having a team we enjoy all starts with Ted.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1678 » by hands11 » Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:49 pm

milellie111 wrote:Abe Pollin had a direct bearing on the moves Grunfeld made. We saw a distinct change in vision when Ted took over the helm. The production on the court now has come to fruition. That alone is evidence that Ernie was not to blame.

Ernie is being wrongly blamed for the mess that festered on for years but you have to go higher and take a look at ownership. A GM can't manage if he isn't properly allowed to. Same issue with the Redskins. It is unfair to judge Grunfeld from the past. An accurate assessment of his work is the present.

Ernie made it clear who he reported to which in turn influenced many moves that didn't pan out. Skip to 2:05:


[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnk_gB-yrOE[/youtube]


Thats the framing of things I have laid out repeatedly so yes, I agree Milli.

What is rare in this scenario that we actually had an opportunity to see a GM under one owner be allowed to stay around longer enough to be judge under a different owner. From tank, two years wouldn't be enough and with EGs contract coming up, we might not be giving a chance to see this play out.

Abe plus EG - Ted plus EG.... solve for EG...solve for Owner

This is what made my position in the debate so hard and so risky. The hater had all the poor data to point to and all I had was speculation that required EG being allow to stick around long enough to get past the bad record and produce a good record. Two years wasn't going to be enough. That was all part of the tear down where you would expect a bad record. Then there was year three where the data should have turned north but was derailed by Wall being injured. And the haters road this like a new ride at 6 flags. PIFF taking the lead and others like DAT and Niv along for the ride on his coat tails. It was all about the data and the data wasn't good but I argued my view regardless. I would make a positive projection and it would get slammed by backward looking data and the hoard of doom and gloomers.

My position was, but the team is making a lot of progress. The record will be the last thing to improve. They are better then their record.

Then the data started to turn. We get fans like Milli projecting positive things. EG for GM of the year. And what do the doom and gloomers do.... attack him and call him a troll over and over and over. :nonono:

Hell, I wasn't even willing to go with GM of the year but Milli stuck his neck out and took the heat head on.

But you know what. In the end, the people that lost are the ones that haven't fully enjoyed the last 4 years. They missed the entire process hating and looking to trade players like Nene at every turn. Getting caught up in Fart. Hating the Nene trade. Hating the Lewis for TA and Okafor trade. Seeing everything as negative all the time. And now some clown is posting .. well if they dont win a title its a failure... :nonono:

I love basketball, and what I love more is the team that is my home team building a respectable roster that wins that I enjoy rooting for. I have that, and the 4 four years have been some of the best years for me as a fan of this franchise.

Four years. Not 24 games.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1679 » by hands11 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:01 am

Brenice wrote:
Dat2U wrote: Did you know Cleveland fired their GM that guided them to 3 lottery wins before they got LeBron back? They recognized luck from skill and have a new GM in charge now.

San Antonio's tank was actually strategic. They were expected to be a rock solid playoff team before losing Duncan for the year. They won 59 games the year before and dropped to 20 wins. That's the year they fired Bob Hill and Pop went from GM to coach.

Nice try on the rebuttal tho...


Did you know that no matter what San Antonio or Cleveland did in those situations, they did not know they would get the first pick for Duncan(Spurs) or win the lottery 3 times in what, 4 years(Cavs). Was it strategy or luck? It is not as though they were the odds on favorites during the lottery. I don't care what the Spurs front office looked like, without Duncan they would not be the Spurs as we now know them. Same for Popovich. Ginobli, Parker, and Pop and winning ANYTHING without Duncan. LUCK. Duncan had to be available to. Sure the Wizards got lucky with Wall. But over the course of 2 decades worth of bad luck. How many times did the wizards DROP from where they should have drafted because of the lottery. BAD LUCK. The fact of the matter is you have to be lucky and you need players available. One of these Cav #1#1's was a mediocre player in a mediocre draft. So to hold Ernie to a different standard than everyone else is agenda-driven. YOU NEED LUCK. More luck, Durant for OKC after Portland selected Oden.

How many teams won a championship without a first team all NBA player/first ballot hall-of-famer, in the history of the NBA? Detroit in 2 different decades is about it.

LeBron - Miami
Duncan - Spurs
Kobe - Lakers
Garnett - Celtics
Wade - Miami
Lakers - Shaq
Olajuwon - Houston
Jordan - Bulls
Magic - Lakers
Bird - Boston

It is Ernie's fault he passed on players like that.

Nice try on the rebuttal...tho


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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1680 » by hands11 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:08 am

Dat2U wrote:
hands11 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
Thanks for setting the record straight. Someone else trying to rewrite history in their own narrative. But that's hands11 MO. He's always ahead of the curve, guiding us lowly idiots towards perfect fandom. :lol:

Not sure what happened to Jan Vesely though. According to hands11, it was Jan NOT John Wall that would soon be the heart and soul of the Wizards. I guess we can't always have 20/20 foresight. :wink:


Spin Spin Spin. Setting the record straight :nonono:

I know its tough for you guys to swallow all the wrong that you have spewed since in fact, the team has turned it around since Ted took over and I was pointing that out all along the way.

Nice try. Actually, no.. your spin here and attempt to character assassinate me to cover up for how wrong you have been is weak.

You guys should go into politics or go to work for Fox Noise.


Spin what? Are you saying you did not say what I said you said?



Regarding Ves ?... Please... you have to know better then that. I debunked that at least 20 times and not bothering to do it again. You bringing that up proves only on things. Your weak agenda and lack of debating skills. Stop the spin. Enter into an honest debate or don't even bother.

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