Around the NBA #3 - Kevin Twitterfingers' RGM Burner Edition

[3toheadmelo]

Randle is the key to all the problems. All our problems start with his style of play.

When Randle was out when his grandmother died the Knicks was getting blown out every night. So he isn’t the problem. Meanwhile Randle has been the key to wins against Dallas, Brooklyn, Miami Heat, etc.

He isn't the problem and he isn't the answer. Meanwhile, yet again, Knicks shelling out in excess of 18 million a year for that guy.

The problem is that he is not a first option and the Knicks are using him as that. And we also don’t have a solid PG next to him. So he is basically set up for failure on the Knicks. If we had better scoring options to where the Knicks do not have to rely on Randle to carry us then we would be better. No good point guard next to him doesn’t help either.

Randle would look a lot better on a team like Indiana or the Heat.

[thebuzzardman]

When Randle was out when his grandmother died the Knicks was getting blown out every night. So he isn’t the problem. Meanwhile Randle has been the key to wins against Dallas, Brooklyn, Miami Heat, etc.

He isn't the problem and he isn't the answer. Meanwhile, yet again, Knicks shelling out in excess of 18 million a year for that guy.

The problem is that he is not a first option and the Knicks are using him as that. And we also don’t have a solid PG next to him. So he is basically set up for failure on the Knicks. If we had better scoring options to where the Knicks do not have to rely on Randle to carry us then we would be better. No good point guard next to him doesn’t help either.

Randle would look a lot better on a team like Indiana or the Heat.

Same problem as THJr. Both are "ok".
Both might have been overpaid - Randle less so, THJr probably so.
The point is more "why the Knicks bother?"

IF a guy is a 2nd/3rd option and a team doesn't have options 1 and 2, why bother?

I'd argue there's a bit of a thing to the way that Randle and THJr play that they aren't the best fits as 2nd/3rd wheels either, that there are better kinds of players are relatively equal skill level that are better ideas, but that's more about what posters value in bball players and debatable in the first place.

[3toheadmelo]

He isn't the problem and he isn't the answer. Meanwhile, yet again, Knicks shelling out in excess of 18 million a year for that guy.

The problem is that he is not a first option and the Knicks are using him as that. And we also don’t have a solid PG next to him. So he is basically set up for failure on the Knicks. If we had better scoring options to where the Knicks do not have to rely on Randle to carry us then we would be better. No good point guard next to him doesn’t help either.

Randle would look a lot better on a team like Indiana or the Heat.

Same problem as THJr. Both are "ok".
Both might have been overpaid - Randle less so, THJr probably so.
The point is more "why the Knicks bother?"

IF a guy is a 2nd/3rd option and a team doesn't have options 1 and 2, why bother?

I'd argue there's a bit of a thing to the way that Randle and THJr play that they aren't the best fits as 2nd/3rd wheels either, that there are better kinds of players are relatively equal skill level that are better ideas, but that's more about what posters value in bball players and debatable in the first place.

I think the Knicks banked on DSJ taking the leap to take some pressure off Randle. That’s why I was on board with the signing. If DSJ took the leap he would be what Ja morant is right now. Smh. It’s also why we didn’t go after someone like Brogdon or D’Lo. DSJ really was a big key of this season. He looked like he was gonna breakout this season based on last year but he took the biggest step backwards. It’s very odd. Oh well.

But yes I agree with your point overall. We need the big core pieces first before we sign someone like Randle to complete the puzzle.

At least Randle is having a better season than Brickstaps and destroyed him every time we played Dallas. So I am still satisfied with Randle

[Tron Carter]

Ya’ll crying about SGA but I was always team Mikal. But apparently Knox had the higher ceiling.

[thebuzzardman]

The problem is that he is not a first option and the Knicks are using him as that. And we also don’t have a solid PG next to him. So he is basically set up for failure on the Knicks. If we had better scoring options to where the Knicks do not have to rely on Randle to carry us then we would be better. No good point guard next to him doesn’t help either.

Randle would look a lot better on a team like Indiana or the Heat.

Same problem as THJr. Both are "ok".
Both might have been overpaid - Randle less so, THJr probably so.
The point is more "why the Knicks bother?"

IF a guy is a 2nd/3rd option and a team doesn't have options 1 and 2, why bother?

I'd argue there's a bit of a thing to the way that Randle and THJr play that they aren't the best fits as 2nd/3rd wheels either, that there are better kinds of players are relatively equal skill level that are better ideas, but that's more about what posters value in bball players and debatable in the first place.

I think the Knicks banked on DSJ taking the leap to take some pressure off Randle. That’s why I was on board with the signing. If DSJ took the leap he would be what Ja morant is right now. Smh. It’s also why we didn’t go after someone like Brogdon or D’Lo. DSJ really was a big key of this season. He looked like he was gonna breakout this season based on last year but he took the biggest step backwards. It’s very odd. Oh well.

But yes I agree with your point overall. We need the big core pieces first before we sign someone like Randle to complete the puzzle.

At least Randle is having a better season than Brickstaps and destroyed him every time we played Dallas. So I am still satisfied with Randle

Another talent assessment issue, regarding DSJr. I'm not putting him down or rooting against him.
Knicks brought in the wrong kinds of vets for large $. Not counting Randle - talent assessment fail
Knicks have been bad to mediocre in 3 straight drafts - talent assessment fail
Knicks didn't properly scout/understand their own guys - talent assessment fail

Team is pretty much doomed unless Rose comes in, cleans total house, and hires the best minds scouting and talent assessment/development money can buy.
Which isn't happening, since Dolan/Stoute/Rose are just going to get in "STARS" and Dolan will be happy, since he just cares about some attendance and merchandising numbers on a powerpoint slide that we don't see.

[3toheadmelo]

Same problem as THJr. Both are "ok".
Both might have been overpaid - Randle less so, THJr probably so.
The point is more "why the Knicks bother?"

IF a guy is a 2nd/3rd option and a team doesn't have options 1 and 2, why bother?

I'd argue there's a bit of a thing to the way that Randle and THJr play that they aren't the best fits as 2nd/3rd wheels either, that there are better kinds of players are relatively equal skill level that are better ideas, but that's more about what posters value in bball players and debatable in the first place.

I think the Knicks banked on DSJ taking the leap to take some pressure off Randle. That’s why I was on board with the signing. If DSJ took the leap he would be what Ja morant is right now. Smh. It’s also why we didn’t go after someone like Brogdon or D’Lo. DSJ really was a big key of this season. He looked like he was gonna breakout this season based on last year but he took the biggest step backwards. It’s very odd. Oh well.

But yes I agree with your point overall. We need the big core pieces first before we sign someone like Randle to complete the puzzle.

At least Randle is having a better season than Brickstaps and destroyed him every time we played Dallas. So I am still satisfied with Randle

Another talent assessment issue, regarding DSJr. I'm not putting him down or rooting against him.
Knicks brought in the wrong kinds of vets for large $. Not counting Randle - talent assessment fail
Knicks have been bad to mediocre in 3 straight drafts - talent assessment fail
Knicks didn't properly scout/understand their own guys - talent assessment fail

Team is pretty much doomed unless Rose comes in, cleans total house, and hires the best minds scouting and talent assessment/development money can buy.
Which isn't happening, since Dolan/Stoute/Rose are just going to get in "STARS" and Dolan will be happy, since he just cares about some attendance and merchandising numbers on a powerpoint slide that we don't see.

I agree with mostly everything but I want to add that DSJ isn’t really indicative of poor talent assessment. If you compare him to Ja coming out of college they were very similar. DSJ problems seem to be mental and we have a poor development staff. In fact, every player on our roster has regressed. Leon Rose needs to clean out this whole mess like you said.

I am sure we are the only team that was willing to offer Portis all of that money too. Terrible “vet”.

I am hoping for the best with Rose and whoever we hire as GM. Knicks are already at a bad start with Steve stoute acting like a idiot on national TV. Sigh.

[Traveyknicks23]

Same problem as THJr. Both are "ok".
Both might have been overpaid - Randle less so, THJr probably so.
The point is more "why the Knicks bother?"

IF a guy is a 2nd/3rd option and a team doesn't have options 1 and 2, why bother?

I'd argue there's a bit of a thing to the way that Randle and THJr play that they aren't the best fits as 2nd/3rd wheels either, that there are better kinds of players are relatively equal skill level that are better ideas, but that's more about what posters value in bball players and debatable in the first place.

I think the Knicks banked on DSJ taking the leap to take some pressure off Randle. That’s why I was on board with the signing. If DSJ took the leap he would be what Ja morant is right now. Smh. It’s also why we didn’t go after someone like Brogdon or D’Lo. DSJ really was a big key of this season. He looked like he was gonna breakout this season based on last year but he took the biggest step backwards. It’s very odd. Oh well.

But yes I agree with your point overall. We need the big core pieces first before we sign someone like Randle to complete the puzzle.

At least Randle is having a better season than Brickstaps and destroyed him every time we played Dallas. So I am still satisfied with Randle

Another talent assessment issue, regarding DSJr. I'm not putting him down or rooting against him.
Knicks brought in the wrong kinds of vets for large $. Not counting Randle - talent assessment fail
Knicks have been bad to mediocre in 3 straight drafts - talent assessment fail
Knicks didn't properly scout/understand their own guys - talent assessment fail

Team is pretty much doomed unless Rose comes in, cleans total house, and hires the best minds scouting and talent assessment/development money can buy.
Which isn't happening, since Dolan/Stoute/Rose are just going to get in "STARS" and Dolan will be happy, since he just cares about some attendance and merchandising numbers on a powerpoint slide that we don't see.

Buzz can we see what the man plan is or what he going to do before we just write him off like that?

[Knicksfan1992]

Ya’ll crying about SGA but I was always team Mikal. But apparently Knox had the higher ceiling.

Eh Knox is a bust but I'm not mad at missing on Mikal either. That hitch he has in his jumper is ugly and he hasn't shot it well from 3 since he entered the league. He does at least play solid team defense though. Knox is a mess everywhere currently. Knicks should get out when they can.

[Marty McFly]

Ya’ll crying about SGA but I was always team Mikal. But apparently Knox had the higher ceiling.

Don't even know what Mikal's been up to, but I think I'd trade Knox for him. I feel like some people in the FO thought Knox had Star ceiling, which may or may not still be true, but this team is going to need role players who play to their role. with Mikal and Frank on the Wings, our defense might be sweet. and if Frank's Jumpshot ever comes around, having potential 2 3D guys on the perimeter would a nice turn of events.

[GONYK]

Ya’ll crying about SGA but I was always team Mikal. But apparently Knox had the higher ceiling.

Don't even know what Mikal's been up to, but I think I'd trade Knox for him. I feel like some people in the FO thought Knox had Star ceiling, which may or may not still be true, but this team is going to need role players who play to their role. with Mikal and Frank on the Wings, our defense might be sweet. and if Frank's Jumpshot ever comes around, having potential 2 3D guys on the perimeter would a nice turn of events.

Mikal is like the free safety of Phoenix's defense. He'd be hard to pry away from them.

[3toheadmelo]

Mikal is a solid player but he would look worse on the Knicks. All he has to do hit 3’s and play D next to Booker/Ayton/Oubre. If he was on the Knicks they would try to force him to be the next Kawhi and he would jack up a lot of shots looking terrible.

[thebuzzardman]

I think the Knicks banked on DSJ taking the leap to take some pressure off Randle. That’s why I was on board with the signing. If DSJ took the leap he would be what Ja morant is right now. Smh. It’s also why we didn’t go after someone like Brogdon or D’Lo. DSJ really was a big key of this season. He looked like he was gonna breakout this season based on last year but he took the biggest step backwards. It’s very odd. Oh well.

But yes I agree with your point overall. We need the big core pieces first before we sign someone like Randle to complete the puzzle.

At least Randle is having a better season than Brickstaps and destroyed him every time we played Dallas. So I am still satisfied with Randle

Another talent assessment issue, regarding DSJr. I'm not putting him down or rooting against him.
Knicks brought in the wrong kinds of vets for large $. Not counting Randle - talent assessment fail
Knicks have been bad to mediocre in 3 straight drafts - talent assessment fail
Knicks didn't properly scout/understand their own guys - talent assessment fail

Team is pretty much doomed unless Rose comes in, cleans total house, and hires the best minds scouting and talent assessment/development money can buy.
Which isn't happening, since Dolan/Stoute/Rose are just going to get in "STARS" and Dolan will be happy, since he just cares about some attendance and merchandising numbers on a powerpoint slide that we don't see.

Buzz can we see what the man plan is or what he going to do before we just write him off like that?

I'll give it a chance, but I'm not optimistic. I got optimistic when Phil was hired. I was cautiously optimistic, with a "wait & see" approach when Mills teamed with Perry - even understood half the KP trade - and still do, but always said it will get further judged not on what KP does, but how the Knicks handle the next phase - FA, and knowing that isn't in total control of any team -the pivot after. Well, it was a fail.
The good news is Mills was let go. He's clearly was PART of the problem. And this is totally ruling Dolan out, which may not be correct. But Mills wasn't the only guy running things.

So, ok, I'll give Rose etc a shot. But it should be pretty clear early on what way it's going, if we stay open minded.
Also, I'm coming back around to the idea that anyone hired is doomed by Dolan, or that Dolan is hiring people not to make the team good, but just for some corporate bottom line we aren't aware of - so same result. Or Knicks might "get good" by accident.

*edit - Melo - DSJr might still be a kind of a talent assessment fail. I mean, a huge part of scouting guys in sports is their mental makeup. Teams go through a LOT to get that right. Different sport, but I'll point out the Yankees, who specifically pass on talented players based on "mental makeup"
Different sport, entirely different dynamics, but Yanks put a TON of money into scouting, at least in the last 5-7 years.

[Tron Carter]

Ya’ll crying about SGA but I was always team Mikal. But apparently Knox had the higher ceiling.

Eh Knox is a bust but I'm not mad at missing on Mikal either. That hitch he has in his jumper is ugly and he hasn't shot it well from 3 since he entered the league. He does at least play solid team defense though. Knox is a mess everywhere currently. Knicks should get out when they can.

He’s shooting 50% from the field, 34% from 3 (60% from 16 ft out), with a 60% TS on the year. I don’t think the hitch is a problem and he’s been an extremely efficient player this season.

[thebuzzardman]

Here's a topic I like to bring up every now and then.

From a pure "basketball being played" as the product, would the NBA benefit from contracting the 5 worst teams in the league?

Really, just any 5 teams.

I mean, I get the level of execution is good in the NBA now, so bad is "relative" and just odds etc will distribute some teams down with bad records, but the NBA, besides deliberate tanking, seems to have more of a problem lately with having a decent sized number of fairly bad teams.

Also, the NBA has always had an issue with the amount of time it takes to accomplish a rebuild, even if a team does everything right.

Baseball is more complex with a much larger farm system etc, but there is a way to spend your way to "decent". Conversely, as it's hard to put a team together, teams can't just "spend their way to the top". The luxury tax changes and influx of rich owners seems to have driven more parity.

Hard cap leagues like the NFL and NHL are kind of brutal on the middle class of players, and it's hard to get attached to players as teams turn over basically every 4 years, which didn't have to be a thing in the NHL, but is, whereas football always had a bit of that anyway. Anyhow, both those leagues have a lot of parity, plus teams seem to be able to cycle through rebuilds quicker, and at least f*ck up and recover a bit faster. Except the NFL Jets and Browns.

NBA seems like a worst of both worlds. I get it's very individual talent driven, but would the league benefit - just arguing quality of play, if you took away 5 teams, and figure that the 5 useful players on each of those teams bump off one bum on the 25 remaining teams.

I wish there was a way for there to be more player movement in the NBA. Honestly, selfishly, I wouldn't mind a hard cap/salary floor. Pay the superstars a lot like in the NFL and sort of screw 80% of everyone else. And lots of players changing hands.

[GONYK]

Here's a topic I like to bring up every now and then.

From a pure "basketball being played" as the product, would the NBA benefit from contracting the 5 worst teams in the league?

Really, just any 5 teams.

I mean, I get the level of execution is good in the NBA now, so bad is "relative" and just odds etc will distribute some teams down with bad records, but the NBA, besides deliberate tanking, seems to have more of a problem lately with having a decent sized number of fairly bad teams.

Also, the NBA has always had an issue with the amount of time it takes to accomplish a rebuild, even if a team does everything right.

Baseball is more complex with a much larger farm system etc, but there is a way to spend your way to "decent". Conversely, as it's hard to put a team together, teams can't just "spend their way to the top". The luxury tax changes and influx of rich owners seems to have driven more parity.

Hard cap leagues like the NFL and NHL are kind of brutal on the middle class of players, and it's hard to get attached to players as teams turn over basically every 4 years, which didn't have to be a thing in the NHL, but is, whereas football always had a bit of that anyway. Anyhow, both those leagues have a lot of parity, plus teams seem to be able to cycle through rebuilds quicker, and at least f*ck up and recover a bit faster. Except the NFL Jets and Browns.

NBA seems like a worst of both worlds. I get it's very individual talent driven, but would the league benefit - just arguing quality of play, if you took away 5 teams, and figure that the 5 useful players on each of those teams bump off one bum on the 25 remaining teams.

I wish there was a way for there to be more player movement in the NBA. Honestly, selfishly, I wouldn't mind a hard cap/salary floor. Pay the superstars a lot like in the NFL and sort of screw 80% of everyone else. And lots of players changing hands.

Yes, contraction would immensely improve the quality of the league.

[digitaldropoff]

Here's a topic I like to bring up every now and then.

From a pure "basketball being played" as the product, would the NBA benefit from contracting the 5 worst teams in the league?

Really, just any 5 teams.

I mean, I get the level of execution is good in the NBA now, so bad is "relative" and just odds etc will distribute some teams down with bad records, but the NBA, besides deliberate tanking, seems to have more of a problem lately with having a decent sized number of fairly bad teams.

Also, the NBA has always had an issue with the amount of time it takes to accomplish a rebuild, even if a team does everything right.

Baseball is more complex with a much larger farm system etc, but there is a way to spend your way to "decent". Conversely, as it's hard to put a team together, teams can't just "spend their way to the top". The luxury tax changes and influx of rich owners seems to have driven more parity.

Hard cap leagues like the NFL and NHL are kind of brutal on the middle class of players, and it's hard to get attached to players as teams turn over basically every 4 years, which didn't have to be a thing in the NHL, but is, whereas football always had a bit of that anyway. Anyhow, both those leagues have a lot of parity, plus teams seem to be able to cycle through rebuilds quicker, and at least f*ck up and recover a bit faster. Except the NFL Jets and Browns.

NBA seems like a worst of both worlds. I get it's very individual talent driven, but would the league benefit - just arguing quality of play, if you took away 5 teams, and figure that the 5 useful players on each of those teams bump off one bum on the 25 remaining teams.

I wish there was a way for there to be more player movement in the NBA. Honestly, selfishly, I wouldn't mind a hard cap/salary floor. Pay the superstars a lot like in the NFL and sort of screw 80% of everyone else. And lots of players changing hands.

But wouldn't this mean the Knicks are no longer an NBA team?

[RHODEY]

When Randle was out when his grandmother died the Knicks was getting blown out every night. So he isn’t the problem. Meanwhile Randle has been the key to wins against Dallas, Brooklyn, Miami Heat, etc.

He isn't the problem and he isn't the answer. Meanwhile, yet again, Knicks shelling out in excess of 18 million a year for that guy.

The problem is that he is not a first option and the Knicks are using him as that. And we also don’t have a solid PG next to him. So he is basically set up for failure on the Knicks. If we had better scoring options to where the Knicks do not have to rely on Randle to carry us then we would be better. No good point guard next to him doesn’t help either.

Randle would look a lot better on a team like Indiana or the Heat.

Statement above says it all. As long as management realizes this and doesnt try to build )around him (or retain him longterm) Im cool

[3toheadmelo]

Read on Twitter

[RShahNyC89]

Our problem has always been roster construction.

We (the front office) buys the hype on empty stats like their only evaluation of a player is the back of the basketball card.

PPG RBG APG

THATS IT.

It's the reason why we are invested in Randle and the reason why Frank doesn't play.

Meanwhile the smarter teams look at how they want to play and obtain players within that construction.

I think today's NBA is built for a PG/SG one defender/3pt specialist, the other a penetrating guard, a 2 way wing that can be a go to player, an athletic multi position 4 and a rim running center.

I look at our team and I think we have our PG defender (albeit needs to work on his shot), SF (again needs to put in work but he's young) and a rim running center.

We should be looking at a shooter/scorer guard and a stretch/versatile 4. I think Hield could work, along with Beasley. I think Gallo can work as the 4 or Bertans. And then all of a sudden we have a watchable team.

[dakomish23]

Go get him.

What are you paying

Bullock, Knox, Clips 1st, Hornets 2nd this year.

If it takes more I'd consider it. He's perfect next to RJ and Mitch and I think he's a legit number 2 on a solid team.

I think it might cost more like the 2021 DAL pick. I know he’s not a star but a late first might not cut it for an owner who thought he has Curry potential. I’m sure some of that waned but I would be surprised to see his feelings dropped off to that offer level. Maybe it has and we get lucky

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2694031-vivek-ranadive-reportedly-thinks-buddy-hield-has-the-potential-of-stephen-curry?share=other