Political Roundtable - Part VI

[TGW]

Sometimes I think Indu is really SD20, except he doesn't talk about his thighs or being a dentist.

Seriously though, I enjoy the conversation.

Remember him but don't remember the "thigh" comments (lol?) and I'm terrified of dentists.

But seriously can't anyone see how it's hard for 3rd world immigrants to empathize with these protests? We're a huge portion of the U.S. Population.

Where we were racism is 100x worse.

To expect Baltimore to be reborn by violent protest and "nicer" cops is irresponsible. It's a dead city.

My parents and I are third world immigrants. You're definitely speaking for yourself.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Guys I have a few ideas:

1)Publicize the predator, not the victim.

Instead of looting, rioting, or holding peace marches I propose private citizens mobilize to make the offending officers known to the masses. Put the names, ID numbers, photographs, and most importantly any controversial cases in which the officers used deadly force on something like an offender registry.

If we started doing that - quickly you would find lots of officers leaving the field. And you would find lots of assassinations. And what group would you trust to start the registry? Al Sharpton?

I am talking about 20 or 30 officers each year out of hundreds of thousands of officers.

Those who have basically assassinated people themselves.

Lots of officers should leave the field. The ones who shoot unarmed people in the back multiple times.

You mentioned Al Sharpton. I think you have ignored the rest of my post and you have devolved this discussion into your own purpose: to add error and confusion and race baiting.

I say that you don't give a damn about 12 year old with toy guns being assassinated. You don't care about a guy in Walmart being assassinated. Dckingsfan, you hate Al Sharpton and love the lousy cops who killed INNOCENT PEOPLE.

I want a few people who did horrible things identified as part of the problem.

I DARE YOU, dckingsfan, to actually read my post and refute each idea rationally.

My ideas may have a lot of flaws but all I want are transparency, accountability, and to force changes that encourage GOOD policing.

Al Sharpton and assassination? That's why I don't post here often.

Go camp out with Darren Wilson.

[fishercob]

Indu, how did you get educated?

Scholarship and self-taught programmer (and two jobs of course). Then I realized I made 5 times more money, incurred less debt freelancing as a programmer and dropped out of college and went into tech startups.

Wonderful. You should obviously be very proud. What about people who aren't as gifted as you intellectually? Most people can't earn merit-based scholarships or teach themselves much of anything, let alone programming. You strike me as an exception, rather than a rule.

[dobrojim]

on a lighter more hopeful note

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-01/tesla-s-powerwall-event-the-11-most-important-facts

The event (which started more than an hour after it was scheduled) was run entirely on batteries. "This entire night, everything you’re using, is stored sunlight,” Musk told the crowd.

And yet somehow it still seems likely to me that 'tree-huggers' will be blamed for the decline in WV coal industry.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Concisely:

Why not name the first two officers who had Freddie Gray screaming in the first place?

Would it have been better to not have riots in Ferguson and actually make an example of Darren Wilson?

Would it be beneficial to use technology to thoroughly scrutinize public record of information and possibly conflicting misinformation? Private citizens who are not lawyers, not police, not biased or bought should do due diligence and should expose suspicious deaths. The man who killed Eric Garner had a tainted record. Why does he get to escape scrutiny and remain largely anonymous? Dckingsfan, what if he were public.ly humiliated and summarily ostracized for unnecessary brutality?

The whole point is be empowered to change the mindset of bullies. It is far worse to change nothing than to at least consider radically changing something.

[dckingsfan]

Guys I have a few ideas:

1)Publicize the predator, not the victim.

Instead of looting, rioting, or holding peace marches I propose private citizens mobilize to make the offending officers known to the masses. Put the names, ID numbers, photographs, and most importantly any controversial cases in which the officers used deadly force on something like an offender registry.

If we started doing that - quickly you would find lots of officers leaving the field. And you would find lots of assassinations. And what group would you trust to start the registry? Al Sharpton?

I am talking about 20 or 30 officers each year out of hundreds of thousands of officers.

Those who have basically assassinated people themselves.

Lots of officers should leave the field. The ones who shoot unarmed people in the back multiple times.

You mentioned Al Sharpton. I think you have ignored the rest of my post and you have devolved this discussion into your own purpose: to add error and confusion and race baiting.

I say that you don't give a damn about 12 year old with toy guns being assassinated. You don't care about a guy in Walmart being assassinated. Dckingsfan, you hate Al Sharpton and love the lousy cops who killed INNOCENT PEOPLE.

I want a few people who did horrible things identified as part of the problem.

I DARE YOU, dckingsfan, to actually read my post and refute each idea rationally.

My ideas may have a lot of flaws but all I want are transparency, accountability, and to force changes that encourage GOOD policing.

Al Sharpton and assassination? That's why I don't post here often.

Go camp out with Darren Wilson.

CCJ, you should know me by now, I definitely read your entire post - but I take issue with #1 - I think it is a terrible idea. I didn't take issue with the rest of the post - but how it started - I really don't think you thought that point through.

1) Who would create the list - the government can't do this due to indemnification of their officers
So who gets to play god? Bad idea... really
2) The ramifications for that list and their families - almost certainly would result in assassinations
Do we really want that - almost certainly not
3) It bypasses the our legal process - and as much as that is flawed, isn't is better to reform?
The process is slow but it is better to force the reforms that to go vigilante

We get to disagree on 1)... I couldn't get behind that one.

[dckingsfan]

Why not name the first two officers who had Freddie Gray screaming in the first place?
-- you don't do that until after the investigation is done. Just like you don't publish murder suspects until due diligence has been completed.

Would it have been better to not have riots in Ferguson and actually make an example of Darren Wilson?
-- No, you never make examples until the due diligence has been completed.

Would it be beneficial to use technology to thoroughly scrutinize public record of information and possibly conflicting misinformation? Private citizens who are not lawyers, not police, not biased or bought should do due diligence and should expose suspicious deaths.
-- Did you see the various discrepancy in testimony in the Ferguson case? You want private citizen's to make the determination?

The man who killed Eric Garner had a tainted record. Why does he get to escape scrutiny and remain largely anonymous. Dckingsfan, what if he were publicly humiliated and summarily ostracized for unnecessary brutality?
-- what if he and his family are executed?

The whole point is be empowered to change the mindset of bullies.
-- Agreed, that is the point. But you do it in a meaningful way - it takes time to change government and how it works and considerable political will.

It is far worse to change nothing than to at least consider radically changing something.
-- Not if it means vigilante efforts. That would be like justifying the riots.

[Induveca]

Indu, how did you get educated?

Scholarship and self-taught programmer (and two jobs of course). Then I realized I made 5 times more money, incurred less debt freelancing as a programmer and dropped out of college and went into tech startups.

Wonderful. You should obviously be very proud. What about people who aren't as gifted as you intellectually? Most people can't earn merit-based scholarships or teach themselves much of anything, let alone programming. You strike me as an exception, rather than a rule.

I've lived by the mantra "desperation is the best motivation" for decades. It drives you to succeed and take major risks. It made me leave NYC as a teenager to an empty studio in DC where there was a booming tech scene.

People with any talent should move from Baltimore, but that's been the mantra for decades now. You can't save a violent/dying former industrial city with no income opportunities or skilled labor. It's Detroit all over again. It's one of a handful of "Blue collar cities" that never evolved. This is an issue of the death of manufacturing in Baltimore/Detroit/Trenton/Upstate NY not the "plight of African Americans".

Migrate to survive, it's in all of our DNA....or none of us would hold blue passports.

[dobrojim]

With cell phones with video all over the place and the more recent advent of live streaming apps,
police and law enforcement officials are going to have to reform themselves. Long overdue
accountability for people on either side of 'encounters or incidents' are going to have some
major explaining to do about their actions.

[TheSecretWeapon]

A survey of police officers suggests the issue of police violence is more deep-rooted than "a few bad apples." 49% said they felt the only way a "criminal" would receive any punishment was to punish the individual him/herself. That's a big number, and cops administering punishment goes way beyond their purview. The cop's job is to apprehend and collect evidence, and then present that evidence to the court. It's the court's job to determine guilt and administer punishment.

And no court would sentence even a convicted criminal to a rough ride or to a beating administered by police officers, etc.

The survey, by the way, was done by the National Criminal Justice Reference Service.

[dobrojim]

Scary but I'm not completely shocked that the number is that high.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

If we started doing that - quickly you would find lots of officers leaving the field. And you would find lots of assassinations. And what group would you trust to start the registry? Al Sharpton?

I am talking about 20 or 30 officers each year out of hundreds of thousands of officers.

Those who have basically assassinated people themselves.

Lots of officers should leave the field. The ones who shoot unarmed people in the back multiple times.

You mentioned Al Sharpton. I think you have ignored the rest of my post and you have devolved this discussion into your own purpose: to add error and confusion and race baiting.

I say that you don't give a damn about 12 year old with toy guns being assassinated. You don't care about a guy in Walmart being assassinated. Dckingsfan, you hate Al Sharpton and love the lousy cops who killed INNOCENT PEOPLE.

I want a few people who did horrible things identified as part of the problem.

I DARE YOU, dckingsfan, to actually read my post and refute each idea rationally.

My ideas may have a lot of flaws but all I want are transparency, accountability, and to force changes that encourage GOOD policing.

Al Sharpton and assassination? That's why I don't post here often.

Go camp out with Darren Wilson.

CCJ, you should know me by now, I definitely read your entire post - but I take issue with #1 - I think it is a terrible idea. I didn't take issue with the rest of the post - but how it started - I really don't think you thought that point through.

1) Who would create the list - the government can't do this due to indemnification of their officers
So who gets to play god? Bad idea... really
2) The ramifications for that list and their families - almost certainly would result in assassinations
Do we really want that - almost certainly not
3) It bypasses the our legal process - and as much as that is flawed, isn't is better to reform?
The process is slow but it is better to force the reforms that to go vigilante

We get to disagree on 1)... I couldn't get behind that one.

No, I didn't think through point one.

I am going to take time to actually think through what you posted above.

THANKS!

(I hadn't considered the families of the officers would be targeted.)

As far as bypass the legal process goes, I think the legal system is very flawed. I went through literally years of family court. Civil court and even criminal court, too, last year. I think the court of public opinion should be used to brainstorm reforms.

Family court has so many systemic problems and so much injustice...

The legal system pays lawyers too much. Judges recognize formality and process, but they don't have to be righteous. They are like the wind. One way or another but they rule. Essentially, whoever has money will give it to lawyers and eventually, the most litigious and shrewd wins. In these brutality cases the police get to police the police; and the legal system essentially provides them with impunity.

[dckingsfan]

This kind of backs Indu's thinking:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/opini ... .html?_r=0

Basically, we have thrown lots of money at the issue - but it isn't one of money and government policy.

On that same NYT webpage you'll find another perspective from someone who has actually studied and written about the situation in Baltimore. It's entitled "Black Culture is Not the Problem."

Scroll down to the bottom of the NYT Op-Ed page and you'll find it. I couldn't figure out how to capture and post the live link.

No worries Zards... but remember when we were talking about putting more money into the problem? I think this shows that it isn't that we haven't put funds forward. We have had lots of government intervention - and it hasn't worked.

And I think Connolly also makes a great point - it isn't the black culture - it is the revenue needs of the local governments that cause the problem.

[Wizardspride]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/WillMcAvoyACN/status/594156123227230208[/tweet]

[dckingsfan]

I am talking about 20 or 30 officers each year out of hundreds of thousands of officers.

Those who have basically assassinated people themselves.

Lots of officers should leave the field. The ones who shoot unarmed people in the back multiple times.

You mentioned Al Sharpton. I think you have ignored the rest of my post and you have devolved this discussion into your own purpose: to add error and confusion and race baiting.

I say that you don't give a damn about 12 year old with toy guns being assassinated. You don't care about a guy in Walmart being assassinated. Dckingsfan, you hate Al Sharpton and love the lousy cops who killed INNOCENT PEOPLE.

I want a few people who did horrible things identified as part of the problem.

I DARE YOU, dckingsfan, to actually read my post and refute each idea rationally.

My ideas may have a lot of flaws but all I want are transparency, accountability, and to force changes that encourage GOOD policing.

Al Sharpton and assassination? That's why I don't post here often.

Go camp out with Darren Wilson.

CCJ, you should know me by now, I definitely read your entire post - but I take issue with #1 - I think it is a terrible idea. I didn't take issue with the rest of the post - but how it started - I really don't think you thought that point through.

1) Who would create the list - the government can't do this due to indemnification of their officers
So who gets to play god? Bad idea... really
2) The ramifications for that list and their families - almost certainly would result in assassinations
Do we really want that - almost certainly not
3) It bypasses the our legal process - and as much as that is flawed, isn't is better to reform?
The process is slow but it is better to force the reforms that to go vigilante

We get to disagree on 1)... I couldn't get behind that one.

No, I didn't think through point one.

I am going to take time to actually think through what you posted above.

THANKS!

(I hadn't considered the families of the officers would be targeted.)

As far as bypass the legal process goes, I think the legal system is very flawed. I went through literally years of family court. Civil court and even criminal court, too, last year. I think the court of public opinion should be used to brainstorm reforms.

Family court has so many systemic problems and so much injustice...

The legal system pays lawyers too much. Judges recognize formality and process, but they don't have to be righteous. They are like the wind. One way or another but they rule. Essentially, whoever has money will give it to lawyers and eventually, the most litigious and shrewd wins. In these brutality cases the police get to police the police; and the legal system essentially provides them with impunity.

Violent Agreement, local police and local legal systems are super flawed. Watching the police and the legal system working together to take money from those that need it most makes me sick. Corrupt might be too much but it is pretty close...

It is interesting that many times local governments are so punitive on the poorest to raise additional revenues.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Why not name the first two officers who had Freddie Gray screaming in the first place?
-- you don't do that until after the investigation is done. Just like you don't publish murder suspects until due diligence has been completed.

Would it have been better to not have riots in Ferguson and actually make an example of Darren Wilson?
-- No, you never make examples until the due diligence has been completed.

Would it be beneficial to use technology to thoroughly scrutinize public record of information and possibly conflicting misinformation? Private citizens who are not lawyers, not police, not biased or bought should do due diligence and should expose suspicious deaths.
-- Did you see the various discrepancy in testimony in the Ferguson case? You want private citizen's to make the determination?

The man who killed Eric Garner had a tainted record. Why does he get to escape scrutiny and remain largely anonymous. Dckingsfan, what if he were publicly humiliated and summarily ostracized for unnecessary brutality?
-- what if he and his family are executed?

The whole point is be empowered to change the mindset of bullies.
-- Agreed, that is the point. But you do it in a meaningful way - it takes time to change government and how it works and considerable political will.

It is far worse to change nothing than to at least consider radically changing something.
-- Not if it means vigilante efforts. That would be like justifying the riots.

I don't think there ever was due diligence in Ferguson.

I think the man who choked Eric Garner deserved to be treated the same way he treated the man who couldn't breathe. If I were a police officer who witnessed that it would distress me greatly. I would not like serving with and protecting that person. I would hate that the action was condoned. Honestly, I know violence isn't the answer but I think all it would take is for that one cop to have been thrown under the bus, publicly, to redirect others who might want to do what he did.

I don't know a meaningful way. That is why all I do is post here. I will reflect on my ideas and try to be objective.

[FreeBalling]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/WillMcAvoyACN/status/594156123227230208[/tweet]

I noticed the first time Gray was put in the van, there was no seat belt fasten. If the van accelerates fast and stops quickly. The person is thrown forward. The police pull us over for not having our seat belts on. If this is the case, the officers should be put in jail for a long time.

[Zonkerbl]

Scholarship and self-taught programmer (and two jobs of course). Then I realized I made 5 times more money, incurred less debt freelancing as a programmer and dropped out of college and went into tech startups.

Wonderful. You should obviously be very proud. What about people who aren't as gifted as you intellectually? Most people can't earn merit-based scholarships or teach themselves much of anything, let alone programming. You strike me as an exception, rather than a rule.

I've lived by the mantra "desperation is the best motivation" for decades. It drives you to succeed and take major risks. It made me leave NYC as a teenager to an empty studio in DC where there was a booming tech scene.

People with any talent should move from Baltimore, but that's been the mantra for decades now. You can't save a violent/dying former industrial city with no income opportunities or skilled labor. It's Detroit all over again. It's one of a handful of "Blue collar cities" that never evolved. This is an issue of the death of manufacturing in Baltimore/Detroit/Trenton/Upstate NY not the "plight of African Americans".

Migrate to survive, it's in all of our DNA....or none of us would hold blue passports.

Man I hate to agree with you but Dayton's the same way. RCA went to Mexico in the eighties, the air force kinda downgraded Wright Pat and boom. Dead city.

I think you should love and care for dying cities like you should love and care for aging parents. Make their passing as comfortable as possible.

New Orleans too. Man.

Well, I'm hoping what will happen is the internet will become so powerful that telecommuting will really take off. Then people who like to live in urban centers but want it on the cheap can buy a place in Detroit. Heck, Detroit will pay YOU to buy property there. Place is so empty there isn't even any crime anymore. Balti if you have family in the DMV. New Orleans if you like to party.

Dayton if you like... corn. Or Jesuits.

[nate33]

This kind of backs Indu's thinking:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/opini ... .html?_r=0

Basically, we have thrown lots of money at the issue - but it isn't one of money and government policy.

On that same NYT webpage you'll find another perspective from someone who has actually studied and written about the situation in Baltimore. It's entitled "Black Culture is Not the Problem."

Scroll down to the bottom of the NYT Op-Ed page and you'll find it. I couldn't figure out how to capture and post the live link.

That may have been the most ridiculous, incoherent thing I have ever read.

He mentions the legacy of slavery as a problem but doesn't really explain what slavery has to do with any of this. Slavery was 150 years ago. That's 7 generations. It's ancient history. White people today don't look at black people and think to themselves, "this guy should be a slave". It's absurd. The concept of slavery is foreign to white people today.

He then mentions "fear of black youth" as the cause of the violence. Somehow, the barricades erected to protect the citizens from protestors caused the violence. Huh? Here is why protective barriers are erected, and here is why riot cops are needed:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qVF5_4FPls[/youtube]

Fear of black youths exists because, in America today, poor black youths ARE to be feared. Black youths age 15-30 make up 4% of the nation's population and are responsible for almost 50% of the nation's murders. Literally 1 out of every 500 black males age 18-24 has committed homicide. (For whites, that number is 1 in 5000, and probably more like 1 in 10,000 if they made a distinction between whites and the somewhat more violent Hispanics.) Think about it. Out of a typical majority black high school, 2 or 3 students will go on to commit homicide in the next 6 years.

There are entire swaths of major metropolitan cities where white people cannot walk the streets at night due to the threat of black violence. We're not allowed to talk about it because it's Crimethink, but we all know it's true. White people are assaulted by black people in numbers orders of magnitude higher than the miniscule amount of unprovoked violence initiated by whites (including white cops) on black men. According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, in 2010, there were approximately 67,755 black-on-white aggravated assaults, as compared to just 1,748 white-on-black aggravated assaults. Thus, blacks committed acts of interracial aggravated assault at a rate of 181 per 100,000, or 201 times higher than the white rate of 0.9 per 100,000. Moreover, blacks guilty of aggravated assault chose white victims 44.1% of the time, while whites who committed aggravated assault selected black victims only six-tenths of 1% of the time.

If anything, whites should be protesting in the streets to put a stop to black violence and black racism, but instead all we get is the opposite.

[DCZards]

He mentions the legacy of slavery as a problem but doesn't really explain what slavery has to do with any of this. Slavery was 150 years ago. That's 7 generations. It's ancient history. White people today don't look at black people and think to themselves, "this guy should be a slave". It's absurd. The concept of slavery is foreign to white people today.

For white people slavery may indeed have been all but forgotten, but for black folks the terrible legacy of what has been called "the South's peculiar institution" lingers in profound ways. But I don't expect you to be able to relate to that.