Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE)

[StephNYKurry]

i've had the thought that maybe he's talked to gasol's people and feels good about it. it would explain calderon too. but it seems like wishful thinking more then reality.

Or L ... A.

No it's neither. He has no inside track on any free agents and he's not going to commit himself or the teams future on some back channel gossip from some flimsy athlete's entourage. He's simply going to trust his gut and take it one step at a time.. while of course staying true to his principles. Assess the situation, make a move, and assess the situation again and make another move. And as time goes by things become clearer and clearer and a direction is presented and then you go for it.

I highly doubt Phil sold Dolan on some grand plan.. he sold him on a structure and identity that eventually lead to success and not specific personnel moves. And I'm sure he was smart enough to prepare him for the worst as well as the best but that it was best if they just stuck to the plan regardless of either outcome. I'm also sure he himself prepared himself for both outcomes as well.

[PMFJB]

Phil saw last year and saw we were really close to the playoffs. Saw how horrible Felton was and how Tyson mailed it in last year. Watch Dallas and saw Calderon and Dally as two starters playing in the playoffs. He thought that if I replace Felton and Tyson with Calderon and Dally that our win total would increase and we would be in the playoffs. From early reports he thought that Bargs would be able to play half way decent in this system. So those three things in his mind would increase our win total and get us in the playoffs.

That clearly didn't happen....

So instead of compounding the mistake/gamble by trading our expiring contract (Bargs and Amare) for players like Stevenson or Gordon to correct the mistake and get the team in the playoffs he is changing his plan and sell off these players and plan on rebuilding around Melo, top 30 pick and around 30 million dollar in cap space. Then in 2016 when Calderon comes off the books and the cap goes up make a run at another top player.

Next year I would love to see a line-up like

Calderon
Danny Green
Melo
Okafor/Towns
Asik

This will start setting a defensive tone to our team with Green and Asik. Calderon, Green and Melo provide spacing. Asik can play a little in the post.

Then when 2016 rolls around have a good amount of space to add to that team and push it over the top.

This is wishful thinking. What makes you think any of those players are heading to New York?

What makes you think they aren't?

History. The last two big free agents that wanted to come here did so for the money and were overpayed. Tyson/Amare.

Asik is not going to go from 15 million a year to 8. He is going to want in the 12/13 range. Danny Green is so overrated on these boards its incredible. The guy had one good finals and all of a sudden he is the answer to all our problems. He is going to ask for Jodie Meeks money at 8 million a year at least.

We have 27 million in space. You are going to waste 20 million on it on Asik/Green? Smh

[Workforce250]

Also take into account another option. Jackson may split the glut of money between 2016 & 2017.
I'd say MAX out a number of RFAs, of which there are some excellent ones on the market. This may eliminate a number of teams for 2017 where some arguably best unrestrictive free agents will be available.

2017
Kobe Bryant SG 36 LAL TBD $25,000,000 UFA
Joe Johnson SG 33 BKN TBD $24,894,863 UFA
LeBron James SF 30 CLE TBD $21,573,398 UFA
Kevin Durant SF 26 OKC TBD $20,158,622 UFA
Brook Lopez C 26 BKN TBD $16,744,219 UFA
Dwyane Wade SG 32 MIA TBD $16,125,000 UFA
Roy Hibbert C 28 IND TBD $15,514,031 UFA
Eric Gordon SG 26 NOP TBD $15,514,031 UFA
David Lee PF 31 GSW TBD $15,493,680 UFA
Joakim Noah C 29 CHI TBD $13,900,000 UFA
Al Jefferson C 30 CHA TBD $13,500,000 UFA
Nene Hilario C 32 WAS TBD $13,000,000 UFA
David West PF 34 IND TBD $12,600,000 UFA
Nicolas Batum SF 26 POR TBD $12,235,750 UFA
JaVale McGee C 26 DEN TBD $12,000,000 UFA
Al Horford C 28 ATL TBD $12,000,000 UFA
Brendan Haywood C 35 CLE TBD $10,522,500 UFA
Luol Deng SF 29 MIA TBD $10,151,612 UFA
Gerald Wallace SF 32 BOS TBD $10,105,855 UFA
Thaddeus Young SF 26 MIN TBD $9,971,739 UFA
Mike Conley PG 27 MEM TBD $9,388,426 UFA
Jeff Green PF 28 BOS TBD $9,200,000 UFA
Jordan Hill C 27 LAL TBD $9,000,000 UFA
Monta Ellis PG 29 DAL TBD $8,720,000 UFA
Ryan Anderson PF 26 NOP TBD $8,500,000 UFA
Brandon Jennings PG 25 DET TBD $8,344,497 UFA
O.J. Mayo SG 27 MIL TBD $8,000,000 UFA
Ersan Ilyasova SF 27 MIL TBD $7,900,000 UFA
Goran Dragic PG 28 PHX TBD $7,500,000 UFA
Arron Afflalo SG 29 DEN TBD $7,500,000 UFA
Wilson Chandler SF 27 DEN TBD $7,171,662 UFA
Marvin Williams PF 28 CHA TBD $7,000,000 UFA
Greivis Vasquez PG 27 TOR TBD $6,600,000 UFA
J.R. Smith SG 29 NYK TBD $6,399,750 UFA
Gerald Henderson SG 27 CHA TBD $6,000,000 UFA
Courtney Lee SG 29 MEM TBD $5,675,000 UFA
Jamal Crawford SG 34 LAC TBD $5,675,000 UFA
J.J Hickson C 26 DEN TBD $5,613,500 UFA
Paul Pierce SF 37 WAS TBD $5,543,725 UFA
Zaza Pachulia C 30 MIL TBD $5,200,000 UFA
Chris Kaman C 32 POR TBD $5,016,000 UFA
Chase Budinger SF 26 MIN TBD $5,000,000 UFA
Chris Andersen PF 36 MIA TBD $5,000,000 UFA
Timofey Mozgov C 28 DEN TBD $4,950,000 UFA
Corey Brewer SF 28 HOU TBD $4,905,000 UFA
Trevor Booker PF 27 UTH TBD $4,775,000 UFA
Ben Gordon SG 31 ORL TBD $4,500,000 UFA
Caron Butler SF 34 DET TBD $4,500,000 UFA
Mario Chalmers PG 28 MIA TBD $4,300,000 UFA
Jared Dudley SG 29 MIL TBD $4,250,000 UFA
Ian Mahinmi C 28 IND TBD $4,000,000 UFA
Raymond Felton PG 30 DAL TBD $3,950,313 UFA
Marreese Speights PF 27 GSW TBD $3,815,000 UFA
Steve Novak SF 31 UTH TBD $3,750,000 UFA
Matt Barnes SF 34 LAC TBD $3,542,500 UFA
Evan Turner SF 26 BOS TBD $3,425,510 UFA
Randy Foye PG 31 DEN TBD $3,135,000 UFA
Anthony Tolliver PF 29 DET TBD $3,000,000 UFA
D.J. Augustin PG 27 DET TBD $3,000,000 UFA
Jerryd Bayless PG 26 MIL TBD $3,000,000 UFA
Brian Roberts PG 29 CHA TBD $2,854,940 UFA
Jameer Nelson PG 32 BOS TBD $2,854,940 UFA
Mike Miller SG 34 CLE TBD $2,854,940 UFA
Kirk Hinrich SG 34 CHI TBD $2,854,940 UFA
Udonis Haslem PF 34 MIA TBD $2,854,940 UFA
James Johnson PF 27 TOR TBD $2,500,000 UFA
Beno Udrih PG 32 MEM TBD $2,170,465 UFA
Ramon Sessions PG 28 SAC TBD $2,170,465 UFA
Danny Granger SF 31 MIA TBD $2,170,465 UFA
Jordan Farmar PG 28 LAC TBD $2,170,465 UFA
Steve Blake PG 34 POR TBD $2,170,465 UFA
Kent Bazemore SG 25 ATL TBD $2,000,000 UFA
Pablo Prigioni PG 37 NYK TBD $1,734,572 UFA
Ryan Kelly PF 23 LAL TBD $1,724,250 UFA
Shawne Williams SF 28 MIA TBD $1,356,146 UFA
Alan Anderson SG 32 BKN TBD $1,333,484 UFA
Brandon Rush SG 29 GSW TBD $1,270,964 UFA
Cartier Martin PF 30 DET TBD $1,270,964 UFA
Garrett Temple SG 28 WAS TBD $1,100,602 UFA
Al-Farouq Aminu SF 24 DAL TBD $1,100,602 UFA
Ed Davis PF 25 LAL TBD $1,100,602 UFA
Jon Leuer PF 25 MEM TBD $1,035,000 UFA
E'Twaun Moore SG 25 CHI TBD $1,015,421 UFA
Joey Dorsey PF 31 HOU TBD $1,015,421 UFA
Robert Sacre C 25 LAL TBD $981,348 UFA
Dewayne Dedmon PF 25 ORL TBD $947,276 UFA
Louis Williams SG 28 TOR TBD - UFA

[mpharris36]

this move would suggest calderon might be on the way out too (probably with timmy).

We would have about 27 million approx. to spend with cap holds and options. If you are able to find a trade partners for Timmy and Calderon that would save the knicks another 9 million off the cap next year.

THat would give them approx. 36 million of space to sign 2 max FA plus draft a top 3 pick.

People were right when it would be difficult to get a max FA to sign here. But Phil's plan might be to convince two. Maybe one guy is more willing to come if he knows another guy is coming to team up with Melo.

That would make the most sense right now to me.

If Calderon and Timmy get moved, I would have to think Phil has a slam dunk lined up for the offseason, cause they keep bringing up culture change, there's no one left.

Well if that happens then it means that Jackson has really no other excuses. It'll truly be his team, his way. Well, I'm sure folks will then start blaming Anthony if something goes wrong, but yeah, it would be his baby.

I would be fine with that.

I really didn't think we could make the necessary changes with just 20 million in cap space. We just freed up close to 30. Now Calderon's contract can get us two max's if we want.

We were obviously so bad this year no one FA would come here but if Phil can sit down two guys and tell them to team up with Melo and a top pick I think we would have a chance.

[K_ick_God]

i've had the thought that maybe he's talked to gasol's people and feels good about it. it would explain calderon too. but it seems like wishful thinking more then reality.

Or L ... A.

No it's neither. He has no inside track on any free agents and he's not going to commit himself or the teams future on some back channel gossip from some flimsy athlete's entourage. He's simply going to trust his gut and take it one step at a time.. while of course staying true to his principles. Assess the situation, make a move, and assess the situation again and make another move. And as time goes by things become clearer and clearer and a direction is presented and then you go for it.

I highly doubt Phil sold Dolan on some grand plan.. he sold him on a structure and identity that eventually lead to success and not specific personnel moves. And I'm sure he was smart enough to prepare him for the worst as well as the best but that it was best if they just stuck to the plan regardless of either outcome. I'm also sure he himself prepared himself for both outcomes as well.

You may be right, you probably are, but an agent and/or some corroborative evidence is not a flimsy entourage rumor.

Even if he feels good, no doubt he'd plan backups since he's a wise gamesman.

[Bklyn&company]

FYI.. cap goes up every year, TV deal will be in play.... maybe stretched to this year and next two years or only next year... $70, $80, $90 mil? Maybe... so even if we use our cap space and resign our guys to go a little over... then get and use the MLE ... the cap will go up also in 2016... but mostly everyone else will have some space available. .. IMO, nyc still wins and the future looks brighter... Keep Calm and R.E.L.A.X

[ozwizard8]

Phil saw last year and saw we were really close to the playoffs. Saw how horrible Felton was and how Tyson mailed it in last year. Watch Dallas and saw Calderon and Dally as two starters playing in the playoffs. He thought that if I replace Felton and Tyson with Calderon and Dally that our win total would increase and we would be in the playoffs. From early reports he thought that Bargs would be able to play half way decent in this system. So those three things in his mind would increase our win total and get us in the playoffs.

That clearly didn't happen....

So instead of compounding the mistake/gamble by trading our expiring contract (Bargs and Amare) for players like Stevenson or Gordon to correct the mistake and get the team in the playoffs he is changing his plan and sell off these players and plan on rebuilding around Melo, top 30 pick and around 30 million dollar in cap space. Then in 2016 when Calderon comes off the books and the cap goes up make a run at another top player.

Next year I would love to see a line-up like

Calderon
Danny Green
Melo
Okafor/Towns
Asik

This will start setting a defensive tone to our team with Green and Asik. Calderon, Green and Melo provide spacing. Asik can play a little in the post.

Then when 2016 rolls around have a good amount of space to add to that team and push it over the top.

calderon's contract doesnt run out in 2016.
its until 2017 !!

it kills both 2015 FA and 2016 FA !!
after this year he got 7.4m per year with. 35 year old calderon.
feltons contract was 4m we could release him and stretch provision on him until 2018 it would affect cap 2m.

now we got calderon with 7.4m.
also tyson chandler was ASSET!

we lose chandler asset + we got worst contract.(give up felton 8m/2 year and recieve calderon 22m/3 year)
mavs use villeneuva+r.jefferson effectively but that doesnt mean these 2 are solid players..

i lost my confidince in phil. jr+shumpert+vet min dalembert for nothing is sucks too. its not enough. we should received some kind of asset for it.
we'll se how he moves calderon. if he wont it would be mistake. sending away hardaway+calderon for TPE+2nd round pick would be good.

at the end of the day:
we got 22m/3 year conract, we get rid of 8m/2year+12m/2year contract.
we lost chandler/shumpert assets.

we saved 3m for 2015 FA, lost 7.5m for 2016 FA, lost chandler+shumpert.

anyway if he convince 2 of those m.gasol/dragic/butler/millsap i would rout for p.jax
but if he cant land good free agents... overpaying g.monroe+danny green wont be enough for playoffs..

[Thorn]

it's getting rid of guys in a desperate attempt for cap space that you don't know you need and not maximizing your assets. walsh gave up more but he was also after lebron. who are we after ? milsap ?

So if we sign Marc Gasol and draft Jahlil Okafor... you are telling me you would be unhappy with trading away JR Smith and Sumpert?

This trade had nothing to do with the draft. It was to get 6 million more and get better "culture". If that 6 million more meant so much tnen why get any salary back in the Tyson trade. He just keeps making moves that contradict each other. I am starting to get worried.

Maybe, I think it is all of those things. We get more room under the cap, we get rid of bad culture guys who are not smart and who are not embracing the system, AND we ensure the tank rolls forward by dropping Sammy, trading away our best defender, and a streaky but shooter for fear he might regain his form from 2 years ago and actually you know.... win a game or three for us.

[thebuzzardman]

This is why Phil Jackson will never be on the same level as a Pat Riley or an RC Buford.

He hires a poor man's Bill Cartwright to be the Knicks' coach.

He signs an aging Carmelo Anthony to a max contract.

He trades one of the top centers in the game and in return gets Othella Harrington 2.0 and a guy that is starting to become the spanish Raymond Felton.

Now he goes and trades one of his rare valuable assets in Shumpert in order to have cap room, and for what? Gasol and Love would have to be on drugs to want to play for this organization who have built an identity on losing.

So you're saying there's a chance!

Quick,someone call up JR's dealer!

[ozwizard8]

If Calderon and Timmy get moved, I would have to think Phil has a slam dunk lined up for the offseason, cause they keep bringing up culture change, there's no one left.

Well if that happens then it means that Jackson has really no other excuses. It'll truly be his team, his way. Well, I'm sure folks will then start blaming Anthony if something goes wrong, but yeah, it would be his baby.

I would be fine with that.

I really didn't think we could make the necessary changes with just 20 million in cap space. We just freed up close to 30. Now Calderon's contract can get us two max's if we want.

We were obviously so bad this year no one FA would come here but if Phil can sit down two guys and tell them to team up with Melo and a top pick I think we would have a chance.

we lost chandler+shumpert for nothing.
so tell me how we can get rid of 35 year old calderon(playing same level with prigs) with 15m/2 year contract remaining?

[spikeslovechild]

This is a good deal. Shump is fools gold and JR has negative value.

Now he has to find someway to get rid of Calderon.

[PMFJB]

So if we sign Marc Gasol and draft Jahlil Okafor... you are telling me you would be unhappy with trading away JR Smith and Sumpert?

This trade had nothing to do with the draft. It was to get 6 million more and get better "culture". If that 6 million more meant so much tnen why get any salary back in the Tyson trade. He just keeps making moves that contradict each other. I am starting to get worried.

Maybe, I think it is all of those things. We get more room under the cap, we get rid of bad culture guys who are not smart and who are not embracing the system, AND we ensure the tank rolls forward by dropping Sammy, and trading away our best defender, and a streaky but solid shooter (every now and again) for fear he might regain his form and actually you know.... win a game or three for us.

I agree this move was made as a full tank move. He realizes this season is lost. Which I am fine with him adjusting with the current circumstances. He gets points for that.

[Deeeez Knicks]

I thought Cole and Acy were free agents?

They are not guaranteed. We can let them go and clear an extra $1mil. I think Cole is at least worth keeping (only an extra $400k in cap space).

Melo...........$22,875,000.00
Calderon......$7,402,812.00
Cap Hold......$525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Hardaway......$1,304,520.00
Early............$845,059.00
Cap Hold...... $525,093
Prigs (buyout)...$440,000.00
2015 Pick (#3 pick)..$3,689,700.00
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold..........$525,093
Cap Hold.......$525,093

Total: ............$39,707,649.00
Projected cap: ...$66,500,000.00
Projected Space: ..$26,792,351.00

just looked it up. Acy we have a team option for. Cole, we don't.

http://data.shamsports.com/content/page ... knicks.jsp

Acy option is for 1.1mil. You think it's worth it?

I am not sure when we would have to pick up Acy's option. I think it might be before free agency so your right that he probably won't be picked up.

[mpharris36]

we lost chandler+shumpert for nothing.
so tell me how we can get rid of 35 year old calderon(playing same level with prigs) with 15m/2 year contract remaining?

we would be having the exact same issue if we still had felton.

we might be having 3 cheap rookies playing for us down the stretch and into next year with Early, Thansis, and Larkin (2nd year). All from the Tyson trade.

[K_ick_God]

Kind of shocking & sad that Shumpert ranks near the BOTTOM of perimeter defenders statistically.

Yikes.

I do blame that on the Knicks as much as Shump. How do you let what he showed in his rookie year go to hell. Yeah he was more of a flashy defender than fundamentally sound but his tools are off the charts -- young talents are always more flashy than efficient and it's up to the team to mold that into fundamentals. He absolutely has the ability to be both dynamic and learn the elemental basketball techniques. We just don't develop well at all.

That may be a bigger problem internally than any of this other crap which is basically barking at the moon over bad luck and limited choices.

[Anotha Knicks fan]

i've had the thought that maybe he's talked to gasol's people and feels good about it. it would explain calderon too. but it seems like wishful thinking more then reality.

Or L ... A.

No it's neither. He has no inside track on any free agents and he's not going to commit himself or the teams future on some back channel gossip from some flimsy athlete's entourage. He's simply going to trust his gut and take it one step at a time.. while of course staying true to his principles. Assess the situation, make a move, and assess the situation again and make another move. And as time goes by things become clearer and clearer and a direction is presented and then you go for it.

I highly doubt Phil sold Dolan on some grand plan.. he sold him on a structure and identity that eventually lead to success and not specific personnel moves. And I'm sure he was smart enough to prepare him for the worst as well as the best but that it was best if they just stuck to the plan regardless of either outcome. I'm also sure he himself prepared himself for both outcomes as well.

Glad you're back

[NoLayupRule]

this move would suggest calderon might be on the way out too (probably with timmy).

We would have about 27 million approx. to spend with cap holds and options. If you are able to find a trade partners for Timmy and Calderon that would save the knicks another 9 million off the cap next year.

THat would give them approx. 36 million of space to sign 2 max FA plus draft a top 3 pick.

People were right when it would be difficult to get a max FA to sign here. But Phil's plan might be to convince two. Maybe one guy is more willing to come if he knows another guy is coming to team up with Melo.

That would make the most sense right now to me.

Tim is going nowhere.

If Calderon gets traded 3 months in then why did he trade for him in the first place?

Why do you think Tim isn't going anywhere. He doesn't pass or defend two thing phil likes in his guards.

well I agree that Timmy is filled with bad habits and makes defense look like an alien concept

however he has talent and on a team thats been gutted and rebooted from scratch he's a very solid player to keep on the roster


that said if we have the chance to move him with Jose and get something back that works in our favor I think he's out

for example and expiring and a pick of some quality like mid teens
More likely is that he stays and so does Jose

[ibraheim718]

This trade had nothing to do with the draft. It was to get 6 million more and get better "culture". If that 6 million more meant so much tnen why get any salary back in the Tyson trade. He just keeps making moves that contradict each other. I am starting to get worried.

Maybe, I think it is all of those things. We get more room under the cap, we get rid of bad culture guys who are not smart and who are not embracing the system, AND we ensure the tank rolls forward by dropping Sammy, and trading away our best defender, and a streaky but solid shooter (every now and again) for fear he might regain his form and actually you know.... win a game or three for us.

I agree this move was made as a full tank move. He realizes this season is lost. Which I am fine with him adjusting with the current circumstances. He gets points for that.

Nah.. the team was already tankingly bad. The move was made because he just wanted to move some more trash to the curb and just to free up a little more money which won't hurt. We had a dumpster full of trash and no one was coming to empty it so he has to empty it himself.

[Moose]

Calderon and THjr for cap space/picks.

Top-3 pick. Hope Melo can sit down with two max types or just two to three very good players and get them to sign.

That's all we can really hope for at this point.

[PMFJB]

If he is going scorched earth. His next move should be with the Pistons.

Joel Anthony 1 yer 4.5 million/Caron Butler 2 years 4million per/protected 1st round pick for Calderon/THJR/2nd rounder.

They are going the old Orlando Magic route. Drummond plus a bunch of shooters. Calderon and THJR fit perfectly in that.

We save 4 million or so next year.