RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[Lakers824]

Please, only casual football fans would pose this question. Cristiano is an all time great, but closer to a Top-10 player than a consensus top3 like LeBron.

For real. Not a debate

Yeah spot on. Lebron is top 3 at worst and has a really strong argument for number 2 all time. Ronaldo in football isn't in the top tier in the foot all pyramid and is arguably towards the latter part of the 2nd tier.

He has no case over Messi, Maradona, Pele. And you can argue Cryuff, Zidane, Ronaldo Nazario, Franz B being ahead of him.

He's realistically close to 7th all time.

[Whateva]

Cristiano comparison would be more like a Stephen Curry, which is not bad, but Messi was on a different level,

[Rust_Cohle]

LeBron is better than Jordan. The question makes an assumption that not everyone agrees with.

I’m personally of the opinion that not only is LeBron better, that there is actually no good argument for Jordan in that comparison. LeBron peaked just as high if not higher, and he did it for a lot longer.

Must be lonely on that island

[Ainosterhaspie]

LeBron is better than Jordan. The question makes an assumption that not everyone agrees with.

I’m personally of the opinion that not only is LeBron better, that there is actually no good argument for Jordan in that comparison. LeBron peaked just as high if not higher, and he did it for a lot longer.

Must be lonely on that island

It's not.

[Coach Carter]

Mbappe who many consider the closest thing to Ronaldo which imo he isn't. He has scored 34+ goals in all competitions this season.

No way, still too awkward on the ball for me and before he signed with Real, I questioned how he'll fit with Vinicius, who I don't rate, but nonetheless found his niche out on the left wing. Anyway I remember telling some youngsters that I'd comfortably take Henry over Mbappe and they lost it at me but they went alive to see Henry destroying the EPL, so they can only go by what they know.

[lessthanjake]

Imagie acting like you know anything about MJ and 80s/90s basketball while writing the quote in my sig. You're out of your league, son. Just quit with the act.

Okay, so I lived in the Chicago area throughout the 1990s and watched virtually all their games and generally paid a lot of attention to them. Grant and Rodman were definitely seen as the third-best players on those three-peat teams, but they were not considered serious stars, and people really did not think that the Bulls were a stacked superteam. Of course, people understood that Pippen was an elite player and that the Bulls had a good supporting cast, but the Bulls were absolutely understood as a team that was clearly led by Jordan, who had a great sidekick in Pippen, and some well-fitting pieces around them. They weren’t considered a “superteam” any more than a team like the Shaq/Kobe Lakers were. Anyone calling those Bulls a “superteam” really is just trying to go back post-hoc and apply a concept to them that no one thought applied at the time, as a way to counter arguments against LeBron.

No one is calling them a super team. Not a single person. Stacked team on the other hand? Yes, they were definitely considered stacked.

I mean…right before this post of yours that I’m quoting, you literally made another post that quoted a discussion in which someone said the following: “Jordan dominated expansion league that was watered down talent wise, having the benefit of having superteam behind him.” So yeah, it’s definitely 100% incorrect for you to say “No one is calling them a super team. Not a single person.” And I feel like that should’ve been obvious to you when you made this post, since, just minutes earlier, you’d literally just quoted a discussion in which someone said that. You might say that *you* haven’t called them that, but I also wasn’t even responding to you to begin with.

[Iwasawitness]

Okay, so I lived in the Chicago area throughout the 1990s and watched virtually all their games and generally paid a lot of attention to them. Grant and Rodman were definitely seen as the third-best players on those three-peat teams, but they were not considered serious stars, and people really did not think that the Bulls were a stacked superteam. Of course, people understood that Pippen was an elite player and that the Bulls had a good supporting cast, but the Bulls were absolutely understood as a team that was clearly led by Jordan, who had a great sidekick in Pippen, and some well-fitting pieces around them. They weren’t considered a “superteam” any more than a team like the Shaq/Kobe Lakers were. Anyone calling those Bulls a “superteam” really is just trying to go back post-hoc and apply a concept to them that no one thought applied at the time, as a way to counter arguments against LeBron.

No one is calling them a super team. Not a single person. Stacked team on the other hand? Yes, they were definitely considered stacked.

I mean…right before this post of yours that I’m quoting, you literally made another post that quoted a discussion in which someone said the following: “Jordan dominated expansion league that was watered down talent wise, having the benefit of having superteam behind him.” So yeah, it’s definitely 100% incorrect for you to say “No one is calling them a super team. Not a single person.” And I feel like that should’ve been obvious to you when you made this post, since, just minutes earlier, you’d literally just quoted a discussion in which someone said that. You might say that *you* haven’t called them that, but I also wasn’t even responding to you to begin with.

Huh... I just went back and re-read the post and you're right, he did say super team. I'm not really sure how I missed that the first time, but apparently I did. Alright, I'll take the L on that one.

[BarbaGrizz]

Cristiano Ronaldo is not even a Top 2 Ronaldo

[fanofthegreats]

That image is kind of devastating. Yeah, that difference is really an entire HOF careers worth.

Yeah the gap is absolutely ridiculous, kind of makes you wonder what qualifies James to be top 3 all time in all seriousness, lemanufactured media driven legacy, a better question people should be asking is who’s #2 All Time in the NBA after Michael Jordan, likely KAJ.

Messi>Ronaldo

Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>james

I know that it sucks LeBron lapped Kobe a long time ago- but try to stay objective.

[Djoker]

Ronaldo 9 (Fenomeno) was a GOAT-caliber attacker. I've watched him live in the late 90's. Just an unstoppable combination of speed, power and technique. Think Mbappe on steroids. Unreal player at his peak before injuries derailed him!

But to answer the OP, the Messi/Cristiano gap is bigger. There is basically no argument for CR over Messi. Messi is the better player in their primes, accomplished more and has similar longevity. While Jordan is also a better player than Lebron and accomplished more, it's actually possible to construct a reasonable argument for Lebron built on career value. I have yet to see an actual reasonable argument for Cristiano > Messi, no offense to anyone.

[fanofthegreats]

As far as the question- obviously Messi over Ronaldo.

LeBron - Jordan is an actual debate and a lot of people favor LeBron in that debate (GOAT level peak with unparalleled longevity).

[ChumboChappati]

If we talking about peaks and careers, majority fans and observers have Messi and Jordan as GOATs and LeBron and Cristiano are in 2-5 range (with Russell, Kareem, Wilt ect and Pele, Maradona, Cruyff ect respectively). But which gap are wider now : between Messi and Ronaldo or Jordan and LeBron?

A Lot of football fans think Cristiano > Messi so this comparison is not the same thing.

[ChumboChappati]

Ronaldo hasn't won the greatest trophy in world sports.
Nothing is comparable with the World Cup.
5 billion people watched the Final in 2022.
5 BILLION.
Messi has won everything.
It's not a debate.
For basketball we've said the same things millions of times, everyone can have his/her opinion.
But for football, there's no debate.

this looks like the most stupid post of this thread

[Rubios]

A Lot of football fans think Cristiano > Messi so this comparison is not the same thing.

Strictly speaking, true. There are "a lot". If it means a significant proportion of them (us), no.

It's not comparable, at all, with the Jordan - Lebron case.

[Rubios]

R9 at Inter was the best footballer I've ever witnessed and I've been watching since 94. Serie A was his playground and this was at a time when it was considered by many as the best league in the world. As people have already mentioned, the likes of Maldini, Nesta and Thuram couldn't defend him. I remember the 98 world cup, a lot of star players and good cohesive teams, which is something you don't get nowadays with an increase in player movement. Out of all the stars, he was the dude every fan wanted to see.

I'm a huge NBA fan but, just for cultural heritage (I'm assuming you're from the US, am I wrong?), most likely you've seen x10 as many games than me -at least- since you were a little kid, and grew up surrounded by lots of other BB fans, watching games with them and talking about it for countless hours. Plus, you've probably played ball at least your whole childhood.
Point is: I do have some knowledge and understanding of BB, played quite a bit. But I'll never have your "eye" for it.

This is football for me, so trust me on these two things:

1. Ronaldo Nazario best season (it was a single one) was playing for Barça, and is not even remotely close.

2. That peak has a serious case as the best striker ever... only if you don't consider Messi a striker. Ronaldo played as a 9, Messi as a 10. In fact, arguably Guardiola rescued from the 70s and re-defined the now so in vogue "fake 9" position for Messi.

But semantics aside, and even leaving out of the conversation all the other abilities that Messi has and O Fenómeno hadn't, Messi is (even) a much better dribbler and (even) a much more effective and versatile scorer.

[KGtabake]

Ronaldo hasn't won the greatest trophy in world sports.
Nothing is comparable with the World Cup.
5 billion people watched the Final in 2022.
5 BILLION.
Messi has won everything.
It's not a debate.
For basketball we've said the same things millions of times, everyone can have his/her opinion.
But for football, there's no debate.

this looks like the most stupid post of this thread

Do you tell yourself something similar every time you see a mirror?

[FlyingArrow]

I voted 'other' just because there are so many at the top, and some of those top players aren't even listed.

Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, Duncan, LeBron

You can make a case for any of them, depending on how much emphasis you put on peak, longevity, rings, scoring, defense, culture/leadership, and if you favor one era over another.

I don't see a case for anyone else.

[MVP1992]

Ronaldo hasn't won the greatest trophy in world sports.
Nothing is comparable with the World Cup.
5 billion people watched the Final in 2022.
5 BILLION.
Messi has won everything.
It's not a debate.
For basketball we've said the same things millions of times, everyone can have his/her opinion.
But for football, there's no debate.

this looks like the most stupid post of this thread

Do you tell yourself something similar every time you see a mirror?

5 billion watched the final? The interwebs don't think so.

"the 5 billion figure represents the total global engagement for the entire 2022 FIFA World Cup, encompassing all matches, not just the final. This includes viewership across TV, digital platforms, and other media, as well as broader interactions like social media engagement, for all 64 matches. The final alone had about 1.5 billion viewers."

[Gregoire]

It’s the way he’s gone about doing it. He never had the natural talent to even be in the same stratosphere as Jordan so he tried to rig the system by forming super teams, using PEDs, stat padding, and using the media and PR to artificially build a case for him being the GOAT.

Yes, its very similar how Cristiano try to score more goals in Arabia to "surpass" Messi. They both (LeBron and CR) are primadonnas, whos ego are very fragile and they hate that there are someone clearly better.

[Gregoire]

He failed to get close to Michael or even Kobe, despite all the super team and stacking the deck. At this point there is no race any more. Longevity is the last thing his bubble can brag about but here's the thing. Either longevity matters - then these empty seasons hurt his legacy - or if they are just "the icing on the cake", they cant count as "longevity" either. So basically not even that is a very strong thing in his favor. You cant look up to someone who carries himself like LeBron did as the "GOAT". Its just not possible if you have seen what real greatness looks like. But all hope is not lost because the next generation promises to be more competitive and less narcissistic. Even if you are too young to have witnessed MJ, Kobe or Bird, you will soon see guys who are much, much greater than LeBron James, and by then - if you are open minded - you will understand why we laughed about your hype.

Yes, LeBrons "longevity" is just widens the gap between him and real GOAT. The legacy dont work in "add any season" way. Most people are in ocnsensus here.