Miami Heat Offseason Thread vol. 1: Post Mortem

[AirP.]

Interesting tidbit: Trae has never played with an all-star teammate

Another interesting tidbit, when one player dominates the ball, others don't get all that many chances to do much with the ball to compile stats to be all-stars.

I think you can build a championship level offense around Trae but I don't know if you can build a good enough defense around him. To put this in context, 2 of the last 3 years when on the court the other team scored 4.9 or more points per 100, at that point, you have to basically make your offense 5 points or more better per 100 just to be a positive for your team.

Just looking back the last say 25 years only really AI and I.Thomas were in similar positions with their size and offense, for IT Brad Stevens tried hiding him which worked well but players are hunted more now and for AI, they threw defensive players around but AI did something else, he actively went after steals and ended up leading the league in steals and every steal is 1 empty possession for the other team dropping the other's team scoring potential. If Spoelstra could scheme to hide him while also getting Trae to activly look to steal the ball it "could" work but doesn't mean it would.

Knew that was coming. Not really that interesting. More of an exploration of the original tidbit.

Bet it wouldn't stop Bam Adebayo from impacting the game in a full capacity.

Defense is obviously a concern. At least Miami would be uniquely set up with the pre-eminent defensive superstar in the game. I'm here for the experiment.

Another interesting tidbit: Among the 8 teams that made the 2nd round of the playoffs, 6 of them had a player with higher usage than Trae this season (including Donovan Mitchell).

Offensive usage isn't the issue, it's the defense. I'm fine handing over an offense over to Trae because of how good of a passer he is.

Donovan vs Trae on defense, Donovan is better but not by a whole lot, he's a tad bit bigger and he's usually gotten 1/2 a steal more per game than Trae. Listening to people who talk to scouts and FO personnel throughout the years on him, they think he can be an average defender but doesn't normally put in the effort to do that. As long as he has the ability, I'll take my chances that Spoelstra and Miami's environment will get him to give that effort in the playoffs when it's needed.

[greg4012]

Another interesting tidbit, when one player dominates the ball, others don't get all that many chances to do much with the ball to compile stats to be all-stars.

I think you can build a championship level offense around Trae but I don't know if you can build a good enough defense around him. To put this in context, 2 of the last 3 years when on the court the other team scored 4.9 or more points per 100, at that point, you have to basically make your offense 5 points or more better per 100 just to be a positive for your team.

Just looking back the last say 25 years only really AI and I.Thomas were in similar positions with their size and offense, for IT Brad Stevens tried hiding him which worked well but players are hunted more now and for AI, they threw defensive players around but AI did something else, he actively went after steals and ended up leading the league in steals and every steal is 1 empty possession for the other team dropping the other's team scoring potential. If Spoelstra could scheme to hide him while also getting Trae to activly look to steal the ball it "could" work but doesn't mean it would.

Knew that was coming. Not really that interesting. More of an exploration of the original tidbit.

Bet it wouldn't stop Bam Adebayo from impacting the game in a full capacity.

Defense is obviously a concern. At least Miami would be uniquely set up with the pre-eminent defensive superstar in the game. I'm here for the experiment.

Another interesting tidbit: Among the 8 teams that made the 2nd round of the playoffs, 6 of them had a player with higher usage than Trae this season (including Donovan Mitchell).

Offensive usage isn't the issue, it's the defense. I'm fine handing over an offense over to Trae because of how good of a passer he is.

Donovan vs Trae on defense, Donovan is better but not by a whole lot, he's a tad bit bigger and he's usually gotten 1/2 a steal more per game than Trae. Listening to scouts throughout the years on him, they think he can be an average defender but usually doesn't put in the effort to do that. As long as he has the ability, I'll take my chances that Spoelstra and Miami's environment will get him to give that effort in the playoffs when it's needed.

I was responding to your prior post characterizing the offensive usage as a limitation to other teammates succeeding. If Mitchell isn't a real option, I'm all for the general bball world thinking Trae can't work defensively. It may be the only way Miami can afford him!

[oreon]

PG wants that Supermax and is injury prone. If we’re extending Jimmy I’m not sure that’s the move with him also likely missing a ton of time considering the young talent that is apparently available in Mitchell, Trae, Ingram, apparently Garland etc.

Agree. PG13 would be a dumb move. He hasn't had any impact in the playoffs the past couple seasons. I'd pass him.
Mitchell was the move, an all nba player in his prime that could be no 1 scoring option and push Butler to 2 and Bam to 3. Shame that dream seems to be dying.

As for the other players none of them are a sure thing. Trae would be the one with the highest ceiling offensively. But to make that work we would need an elite defender at the 2 and 3 someone like Jaden MacDaniel's to cover for him in the playoffs.

Garland I'm out on. He's not that much better than Rozier to be an upgrade for the picks that it would cost to get him. And he's short, if I am going to go after a small guard they would need to be an elite offensive player like Trae or Mitchell. Garland is above average but not elite.

Ingram, I don't know. He looks the part but he's never shown he can impact winning at high level in the playoffs. NO needs an allstar next to Zion and they dont believe in him. That tells me something. He could be Tobias Harris. I'd be okay with a move if its just picks and you move Herro out in same package.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Yea given the fact that we’ve been elite defensively even with 2 of washed Lowry, Herro, Duncan, Strus, Rozier, etc I think we can find a way to make it work with Trae, especially if we’re able to find a 3 and D guy to put at the 2. Hell Wright or JRich might even work in that situation. Martin if he finds the market isn’t too good for him. There will be vets out there

[AirP.]

Knew that was coming. Not really that interesting. More of an exploration of the original tidbit.

Bet it wouldn't stop Bam Adebayo from impacting the game in a full capacity.

Defense is obviously a concern. At least Miami would be uniquely set up with the pre-eminent defensive superstar in the game. I'm here for the experiment.

The ultimate question is, can you win a championship with a defender as bad as Trae on the court being targeted? If you aren't positive that you can then what are we talking about? This is a question that only Spoelstra should answer in internal talks, nobody else's voice should matter, just the coach who will have to figure out how to optimize the player on both sides of the court.

I don't think there's any being positive about winning a championship ever.

I'm for the experiment if Spo is.

What we're talking about is exploring avenues to better the team, get younger, and change the makeup given the limited assets and limited options.

The clock is ticking, Donovan is nearly 28, Bam is nearly 27 but Trae is nearly 26. I don't really get this idea of getting younger which probably makes you a lesser team because of the assets you trade... then go through a few years trying to build up only to finally be ready to compete with your main guys around 30. This is one of the big reasons I don't really consider age all that much when adding talent, I just want the talent and not waste the seasons trying to build up a roster. I'm much higher on Donovan as an overall player than Trae but probably wouldn't want to roll the dice on Trae for what it would cost.

I absolutely loved the idea of always trying to compete that I thought Miami had, but in the 5 years I've followed this team they've really gone away from that to more of a youth movement than I would have expected to see for a team that got to the finals twice in half a decade, you'd expect to go all in and they didn't.

[greg4012]

Somehow trade for Trae and keep the 2024 FRP. Draft Tristan Da Silva--readymade 3&D combo forward. Re-sign Delon Wright and keep JRich.

Not too shabby, if possible

Trae - Wright - Richardson
Butler - Jaquez - Richardson/Wright
Da Silva - Jaquez - Highsmith
Jovic - Da Silva - Highsmith
Bam - Love - Bryant

[greg4012]

The ultimate question is, can you win a championship with a defender as bad as Trae on the court being targeted? If you aren't positive that you can then what are we talking about? This is a question that only Spoelstra should answer in internal talks, nobody else's voice should matter, just the coach who will have to figure out how to optimize the player on both sides of the court.

I don't think there's any being positive about winning a championship ever.

I'm for the experiment if Spo is.

What we're talking about is exploring avenues to better the team, get younger, and change the makeup given the limited assets and limited options.

The clock is ticking, Donovan is nearly 28, Bam is nearly 27 but Trae is nearly 26. I don't really get this idea of getting younger which probably makes you a lesser team because of the assets you trade... then go through a few years trying to build up only to finally be ready to compete with your main guys around 30. This is one of the big reasons I don't really consider age all that much when adding talent, I just want the talent and not waste the seasons trying to build up a roster. I'm much higher on Donovan as an overall player than Trae but probably wouldn't want to roll the dice on Trae for what it would cost.

The idea is Heat-centered vs Jimmy-centered. Serve the present and future vs just focus on present.

[AirP.]

I don't think there's any being positive about winning a championship ever.

I'm for the experiment if Spo is.

What we're talking about is exploring avenues to better the team, get younger, and change the makeup given the limited assets and limited options.

The clock is ticking, Donovan is nearly 28, Bam is nearly 27 but Trae is nearly 26. I don't really get this idea of getting younger which probably makes you a lesser team because of the assets you trade... then go through a few years trying to build up only to finally be ready to compete with your main guys around 30. This is one of the big reasons I don't really consider age all that much when adding talent, I just want the talent and not waste the seasons trying to build up a roster. I'm much higher on Donovan as an overall player than Trae but probably wouldn't want to roll the dice on Trae for what it would cost.

The idea is Heat-centered vs Jimmy-centered. Serve the present and future vs just focus on present.

My issue is that being Heat-centered is also Jimmy-centered. If Butler were to be moved it probably would be to a better roster than Miami has right now, why else would a team trade for Butler. It just blows my mind that people think Butler "fans" want Butler to stay in a lesser situation because that's not it, a fan like me thinks this particular team with it's defense is really close to having enough offensive options to win a championship and the hail Mary that Herro would become a great offensive force they needed was a small market cheap move, he could have been in a package to get the right type of vet scorer this team needed a couple of off seasons ago before Miami handed him his extension.

[greg4012]

The clock is ticking, Donovan is nearly 28, Bam is nearly 27 but Trae is nearly 26. I don't really get this idea of getting younger which probably makes you a lesser team because of the assets you trade... then go through a few years trying to build up only to finally be ready to compete with your main guys around 30. This is one of the big reasons I don't really consider age all that much when adding talent, I just want the talent and not waste the seasons trying to build up a roster. I'm much higher on Donovan as an overall player than Trae but probably wouldn't want to roll the dice on Trae for what it would cost.

The idea is Heat-centered vs Jimmy-centered. Serve the present and future vs just focus on present.

My issue is that being Heat-centered is also Jimmy-centered. If Butler were to be moved it probably would be to a better roster than Miami has right now, why else would a team trade for Butler. It just blows my mind that people think Butler "fans" want Butler to stay in a lesser situation because that's not it, a fan like me thinks this particular team with it's defense is really close to having enough offensive options to win a championship and the hail Mary that Herro would become a great offensive force they needed was a small market cheap move.

I like the middle of the venn diagram.

[AirP.]

The idea is Heat-centered vs Jimmy-centered. Serve the present and future vs just focus on present.

My issue is that being Heat-centered is also Jimmy-centered. If Butler were to be moved it probably would be to a better roster than Miami has right now, why else would a team trade for Butler. It just blows my mind that people think Butler "fans" want Butler to stay in a lesser situation because that's not it, a fan like me thinks this particular team with it's defense is really close to having enough offensive options to win a championship and the hail Mary that Herro would become a great offensive force they needed was a small market cheap move.

I like the middle of the venn diagram.

Cool, so did Golden State, the organization that was light-years ahead of everyone. Luckily they had 3 HOF players on their roster to win another Championship while they took 3 lottery picks and basically flushed them down the drain.

All that matters is getting higher level players and have a good coach.

[greg4012]

My issue is that being Heat-centered is also Jimmy-centered. If Butler were to be moved it probably would be to a better roster than Miami has right now, why else would a team trade for Butler. It just blows my mind that people think Butler "fans" want Butler to stay in a lesser situation because that's not it, a fan like me thinks this particular team with it's defense is really close to having enough offensive options to win a championship and the hail Mary that Herro would become a great offensive force they needed was a small market cheap move.

I like the middle of the venn diagram.

Cool, so did Golden State. Luckily they had 3 HOF players on their roster to win another Championship while they took 3 lottery picks and basically flushed them down the drain.

Let it all out

[AirP.]

I like the middle of the venn diagram.

Cool, so did Golden State. Luckily they had 3 HOF players on their roster to win another Championship while they took 3 lottery picks and basically flushed them down the drain.

Let it all out

Not a problem, I've gone through these delusions of youth as a Bulls fan. Maybe you were a fan of what Miami was building towards before Butler forced his way to Miami, I sure wasn't.

[greg4012]

Cool, so did Golden State. Luckily they had 3 HOF players on their roster to win another Championship while they took 3 lottery picks and basically flushed them down the drain.

Let it all out

Not a problem, I've gone through these delusions of youth as a Bulls fan. Maybe you were a fan of what Miami was building towards before Butler forced his way to Miami, I sure wasn't.

False equivalencies are always fun. I don't have much interest in trying to turn things into Miami camps vs Butler camps.

The pre-Butler Miami era was a direct result of mortgaging future for the big 3 era paired with the extremely unfortunate loss of Chris Bosh due to a life-threatening health issue that no one can predict. I definitely wasn't a fan of Bosh's life being in jeopardy and him losing part of the prime of his career all while still being on the books for 2 more seasons with Miami.

I take it your frustration stems from the fact that Miami has only partially unloaded assets to mortgage the future during the Jimmy window, rather than emptying the clip?

[MettaWorldPanda]

What’s the genuine trade offer for Trae Young? He makes 43 million a year. Herro and Robinson or Rozier are getting this done? Why are the Hawks doing this? Even if we include our 2029 pick and Jovic does it make sense for us?

[MettaWorldPanda]

Read on Twitter

[AirP.]

Let it all out

Not a problem, I've gone through these delusions of youth as a Bulls fan. Maybe you were a fan of what Miami was building towards before Butler forced his way to Miami, I sure wasn't.

False equivalencies are always fun. I don't have much interest in trying to turn things into Miami camps vs Butler camps.

The pre-Butler Miami era was a direct result of mortgaging future for the big 3 era paired with the extremely unfortunate loss of Chris Bosh due to a life-threatening health issue that no one can predict. I definitely wasn't a fan of Bosh's life being in jeopardy and him losing part of the prime of his career all while still being on the books for 2 more seasons with Miami.

That's odd, I thought it had more to do with the FO maxing out Whiteside and handing out 4 year contracts to players like Waiters and J.Johnson, maybe matching a T.Johnson contract was in there too. Incredibly, they weren't even trying to create capspace to lure anyone to Miami, even with Butler forcing himself to sign in Miami the FO had to go through multiple hoops to be able to even find a way to make it work.

I take it your frustration stems from the fact that Miami has only partially unloaded assets to mortgage the future during the Jimmy window, rather than emptying the clip?

Well, there's that, their opinions on Herro when phrases like... "think better than Booker", making the Finals and letting your starting PF walk for a fair contract of 10 mil a year and trying to replace him with Mo Harkless so you could create cap room for Giannis who OBVIOUSLY was going to sign the super max in Milwaukee so Miami pivoted to placate Butler for letting Crowder walk by signing a past his prime Lowry because there was nobody else who possibly would move the needle that they could get. How about drafting a backup smallish C/PF with Maxey, Quickly and Bane on the board. Teams hit and miss in the draft which is why I loved the idea of Miami being that franchise that moved their picks for more proven players but outside of Rozier this last season, it's not really been happening. They thought Okpala was a 1st round talent, one of the picks they traded to take Okpala ended up being Bol Bol and he probably would have done better in Miami under Spoelstra than Okpala.

[greg4012]

Not a problem, I've gone through these delusions of youth as a Bulls fan. Maybe you were a fan of what Miami was building towards before Butler forced his way to Miami, I sure wasn't.

False equivalencies are always fun. I don't have much interest in trying to turn things into Miami camps vs Butler camps.

The pre-Butler Miami era was a direct result of mortgaging future for the big 3 era paired with the extremely unfortunate loss of Chris Bosh due to a life-threatening health issue that no one can predict. I definitely wasn't a fan of Bosh's life being in jeopardy and him losing part of the prime of his career all while still being on the books for 2 more seasons with Miami.

That's odd, I thought it had more to do with the FO maxing out Whiteside and handing out 4 year contracts to players like Waiters and J.Johnson, maybe matching a T.Johnson contract was in there too. Incredibly, they weren't even trying to create capspace to lure anyone to Miami, even with Butler forcing himself to sign in Miami the FO had to go through multiple hoops to be able to even find a way to make it work.

I take it your frustration stems from the fact that Miami has only partially unloaded assets to mortgage the future during the Jimmy window, rather than emptying the clip?

Well, there's that, their opinions on Herro when phrases like... "think better than Booker", making the Finals and letting your starting PF walk for a fair contract of 10 mil a year and trying to replace him with Mo Harkless so you could create cap room for Giannis who OBVIOUSLY was going to sign the super max in Milwaukee so Miami pivoted to placate Butler for letting Crowder walk by signing a past his prime Lowry because there was nobody else who possibly would move the needle that they could get. How about drafting a backup smallish C/PF with Maxey, Quickly and Bane on the board. Teams hit and miss in the draft which is why I loved the idea of Miami being that franchise that moved their picks for more proven players but outside of Rozier this last season, it's not really been happening. They thought Okpala was a 1st round talent, one of the picks they traded to take Okpala ended up being Bol Bol and he probably would have done better in Miami under Spoelstra than Okpala.

Have a day baby! All the greatest hits coming out. Can't believe the org isn't infallible in the face of doing what you previously lauded--always trying to compete.

It's Friday, my man. How did all of this stem from a discussion of considering trading for Trae if his value is depressed?

[AirP.]

False equivalencies are always fun. I don't have much interest in trying to turn things into Miami camps vs Butler camps.

The pre-Butler Miami era was a direct result of mortgaging future for the big 3 era paired with the extremely unfortunate loss of Chris Bosh due to a life-threatening health issue that no one can predict. I definitely wasn't a fan of Bosh's life being in jeopardy and him losing part of the prime of his career all while still being on the books for 2 more seasons with Miami.

That's odd, I thought it had more to do with the FO maxing out Whiteside and handing out 4 year contracts to players like Waiters and J.Johnson, maybe matching a T.Johnson contract was in there too. Incredibly, they weren't even trying to create capspace to lure anyone to Miami, even with Butler forcing himself to sign in Miami the FO had to go through multiple hoops to be able to even find a way to make it work.

I take it your frustration stems from the fact that Miami has only partially unloaded assets to mortgage the future during the Jimmy window, rather than emptying the clip?

Well, there's that, their opinions on Herro when phrases like... "think better than Booker", making the Finals and letting your starting PF walk for a fair contract of 10 mil a year and trying to replace him with Mo Harkless so you could create cap room for Giannis who OBVIOUSLY was going to sign the super max in Milwaukee so Miami pivoted to placate Butler for letting Crowder walk by signing a past his prime Lowry because there was nobody else who possibly would move the needle that they could get. How about drafting a backup smallish C/PF with Maxey, Quickly and Bane on the board. Teams hit and miss in the draft which is why I loved the idea of Miami being that franchise that moved their picks for more proven players but outside of Rozier this last season, it's not really been happening. They thought Okpala was a 1st round talent, one of the picks they traded to take Okpala ended up being Bol Bol and he probably would have done better in Miami under Spoelstra than Okpala.

Have a day baby! All the greatest hits coming out. Can't believe the org isn't infallible in the face of doing what you previously lauded--always trying to compete.

It's Friday, my man. How did all of this stem from a discussion of considering trading for Trae if his value is depressed?

It came from you wanting to get younger and mediocre.
Wrong person but I left it in a spoiler since I did write it.

Spoiler:

I'd think a fan on this board who has a friend in the FO would want more for them.

[greg4012]

What’s the genuine trade offer for Trae Young? He makes 43 million a year. Herro and Robinson or Rozier are getting this done? Why are the Hawks doing this? Even if we include our 2029 pick and Jovic does it make sense for us?

Def believe draft capital would have to be included on Miami's part. It starts getting questionable to me if Jovic or Jaquez need to be included also. No clue how real the desire to move Trae is on ATL's part, but I remain skeptical.

[DayofMourning]

Read on Twitter

Id rather seem them draft Reed Sheppard and develop him and whomever they get with 8.

Ive watched Garland a decent amount and I just dont get shelling for the impact/contract ratio youd have to accomodate.