2018/19 ROY/Rookie Discussion Thread (Pt 2)

[Riko]

Wow, someone is setting the bar for Doncic really high...
Too high?

[XTraderXL]

I think it varies per your overall game. But most “generational talents” average 25+ points a game on around 48% efficiency. If you are going to be subpar defensively that number goes up a bit.

In his rookie season? You seem to forget that he is still 19..

I’m not the one declaring him a generational talent today. Does he have potential to grow into one? Sure but he isn’t one yet. At best today he is in the discussion for the all-star team.

Do you even know what generational talent is? Seems like you dont... Talent or generational talent is something a player already posseses when he comes into the league. Luka either already has it or he doesnt. If he does not, he will not grow into it

What you are talking about is his development. He may develop into a generational type player or he may not. You have the two confused.

So I ask you, do you think he has the generational talent or not? Its a simple yes or no question...

[Sactowndog]

Dude, what Mitchell, he's a lot worse than Luka at everything including defense. How can you compare those lol. Also is worse than Tyreke's rookie season. I really don't get the hype, inefficient scorer who brings nothing else to the table.

Let’s see.
Mitchell averaged. 20.5 ppg on 43.7% shooting
Luka averages currently 20.3 ppg on 43.6% shooting

Hard to see a lot of difference between those two.

[Duke4life831]

Dude, what Mitchell, he's a lot worse than Luka at everything including defense. How can you compare those lol. Also is worse than Tyreke's rookie season. I really don't get the hype, inefficient scorer who brings nothing else to the table.

Let’s see.
Mitchell averaged. 20.5 ppg on 43.7% shooting
Luka averages currently 20.3 ppg on 43.6% shooting

Hard to see a lot of difference between those two.

This is kind of disingenuous though. Luka's TS% is 2 points higher. It takes Luka 15 shots to get those 20 points compared to Mitchell's 17 shots. Luka also averages 3 more rebounds and 2 more assists a game. He also triples him in BPM (3.3 vs 1.1).

A few more guys
LeBron: 20.9 ppg on 41.7% shooting
Durant: 20.3 ppg on 43% shooting
Giannis: 6.8 ppg on 41.4% shooting

I do think some of the Luka hype has gotten out of control. But there is no denying how great he has looked and how good of a season he is having for a rookie. It's actually hard to find a current perimeter player that had a better rookie season than Luka is having right now.

Now there is for sure there Tyreke thing, which is a legit thing to bring up and why I think the Luka hype can get overboard. We don't know if there is a guy getting 20 minutes a game right now, is going to blow up later on like Harden did, or just a solid rookie that continues to get better and better like Curry did. KAT is another example of this. After 1 year everyone was locking KAT in as the next best big in the NBA, now many don't even have him in their top 5 young big men.

So I think it's too early to call Luka a lock to be the next great. But I think we can definitely recognize how good of a season he is having. It is clearly on a different level than Mitchell last year.

[BoardCrusher]

Dude, what Mitchell, he's a lot worse than Luka at everything including defense. How can you compare those lol. Also is worse than Tyreke's rookie season. I really don't get the hype, inefficient scorer who brings nothing else to the table.

Let’s see.
Mitchell averaged. 20.5 ppg on 43.7% shooting
Luka averages currently 20.3 ppg on 43.6% shooting

Hard to see a lot of difference between those two.

youve been downplaying Doncics success for a while now, getting the feeling youre trolling hard, blocked.

[TheBonzaiEffect]

Dude, what Mitchell, he's a lot worse than Luka at everything including defense. How can you compare those lol. Also is worse than Tyreke's rookie season. I really don't get the hype, inefficient scorer who brings nothing else to the table.

Let’s see.
Mitchell averaged. 20.5 ppg on 43.7% shooting
Luka averages currently 20.3 ppg on 43.6% shooting

Hard to see a lot of difference between those two.

Lmao at this guy continuing to post raw FG% as an indicative stat. I feel like I took a time machine to 1995.

Since you're "struggling" to see the difference, allow me to help elucidate.

Luka: 7 RPG, 5 ASPG, 18.8 PER, 56.4% TS, 3.3 BPM, 1.9 VORP (in 43 games), .115 WS/48

Mitchell: 4 RPG, 4 ASPG, 16.7 PER, 54% TS, 1.1 BPM, 2.1 VORP (in 79 games), .95 WS/48

Aside from the obvious eye test, Luka is a better rebounder, better passer, more efficient scorer, more impactful player in literally every definable way. Still confused?

[SlovenianDragon]

As a suns fan I love Ayton and like Doncic...As a basketball fan I love them both. Both are going to have amazing careers.

Doncic on another level right now though. Fo sho ROY atm its going to be fun to watch his career. I hope Mavs and Suns peek at the same time for a great rivalry in the future.

Other than that most of the other rooks are playing well too. Really great draft class. We can all be happy about the future of basketball.

[TheBonzaiEffect]

Another gem from Luka. Horrendous officiating...should have had 35+.

It's a shame refs get to decide games...

@NBAOfficial: The L2M reports from qualifying games played on Wednesday have been posted on http://NBA.com/official

@PeasESPN: Luka should have been rewarded with 3 FT’s late in last night’s game

@PeasESPN: This was the only missed call down the stretch last night but it was a big missed call

@bobbykaralla: They took six FTA after the first quarter... between this play and the Harris 3 that should've been six more... Not great

[Pachinko_]

The way I use the term "generational talent" is the kind of talent most teams get once in a generation, and defines the whole generation for them sort of thing. Like the Mavs had Dirk who was their franchise player and then a generation later they get Luka. Some teams skip a generation like the Bucks had Kareem and then they had to wait a couple of generations for Giannis. And some teams might get 2 in one generation, like the Lakers had Shaq and Kobi.

Like, I'm looking at it from a team perspective rather than the whole league or all of basketball perspective.

Am I doing it wrong?

[BlueSan]

Franchise player maybe?

[Ascrilas]

Mitchell was 21 during his rookie season, are we gonna ignore this now? Tyreke was 20, had a TS% of .529 and is an absolute freak case.

Basically everyone with stats similar to Tyreke's as a rookie went on to be a star. Sure, sometimes you throw a coin 5x and get heads 5x. Doesn't mean it's reasonable to expect the same outcome the next time. All odds are on Luka's side. As is another "metric" which is called eyes. He's a generational talent, I have zero doubts about this. Sure-fire HoF barring injury. When LeBron came into the league I was a small kid and didn't even know basketball existed. I have not witnessed him. But since watching ball, I've never been as excited about a rookie as I am with Luka.

[Young gun 6]

Mitchell was 21 during his rookie season, are we gonna ignore this now? Tyreke was 20, had a TS% of .529 and is an absolute freak case.

Basically everyone with stats similar to Tyreke's as a rookie went on to be a star. Sure, sometimes you throw a coin 5x and get heads 5x. Doesn't mean it's reasonable to expect the same outcome the next time. All odds are on Luka's side. As is another "metric" which is called eyes. He's a generational talent, I have zero doubts about this. Sure-fire HoF barring injury. When LeBron came into the league I was a small kid and didn't even know basketball existed. I have not witnessed him. But since watching ball, I've never been as excited about a rookie as I am with Luka.

Yeah hate when people use the experience thing, Luke had experience in pro ball, Booker is in his 4th season, blah blah.

Age is Age no matter the experience and both players are younger and arguably better (in Booker’s case) or definitely better (Doncic’s case) than Mitchell who could not have a better role on any other team in the league.

If players are penalised for experienced, Mitchell should be penalised for being in a far easier system to showcase his talent than the other two.

[Pachinko_]

Franchise player maybe?

Nah doesnt work for me because every team at any point in time thinks they have one of those. They just pick one and name him.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[stilldropin20]

doncic is absolutely a generational player.

his vision is magic johnson level.

his passing is magic johnson level.

his shot creation is a big version of curry level.

his play making for others is magic johnson level.

he is basically averaging 26, 7, and 7 over the last 20 games with a 60%TS and a 23PER and is the most clutch player in the entire league with multiple late game heroics. This is unheard of for any non generational player.

ONly generational players can do this.

and on top of all of this he is essentially the most fun player to watch in this entire league in a long long time. I have NOT enjoyed watching just the pure art of his basketball genius since Magic and Bird.

And not to get too off topic but Luka is here to remind everyone just how good prime Bird and Prime magic really were. Cuz both were better than luka has been over this 20 game stretch for about 9 years each. Thats why both Bird and magic are still on my rushmore. and frankly. steph curry is earning his way on it too. And when its all said and done, luka may be the 4th player i put on there. because IMO you must be a player that players want to player for...that coaches relish coaching...that puposefully scores in order to draw double teams, and then looks to pass...and looks to pass to create easier lanes for scoring....

this type of artist/basketball savant has only been found in 3 players at this highest of levels...Magic, Bird, and now Luka. everyone else is either a primary scorer or primary passer. it is extremely rare when you cant tell if the player is a scorer or a playmaker because he blends both so magically. magic, bird, and luka are primary shot creators for the entire team. They know their teamates stengths better than those players know their strengths....

lebron is very close and almost makes this very special list but i just see lebron mostly as big and ball dominant, benefitting from high usage and not necessarily getting the most out of team mates...ans stnading off ball on the wing not drawing anywhere near the gravity of magic in the post, bird anywhere, or Steph on the wing and not Luka. Lebron is just a massive prodding playmaker, a slightly smaller shaquille oneal...both are great players...BUT...its clear as day when lebron is going to pass and clear as day when he is going to shoot.

With Luka, magic, and Bird you dont know...on every single play...you dont know. that is just amazing to watch. so fun. so amazing...i love the NBA again. Thank you Luka!!

[Sactowndog]

Dude, what Mitchell, he's a lot worse than Luka at everything including defense. How can you compare those lol. Also is worse than Tyreke's rookie season. I really don't get the hype, inefficient scorer who brings nothing else to the table.

Let’s see.
Mitchell averaged. 20.5 ppg on 43.7% shooting
Luka averages currently 20.3 ppg on 43.6% shooting

Hard to see a lot of difference between those two.

This is kind of disingenuous though. Luka's TS% is 2 points higher. It takes Luka 15 shots to get those 20 points compared to Mitchell's 17 shots. Luka also averages 3 more rebounds and 2 more assists a game. He also triples him in BPM (3.3 vs 1.1).

A few more guys
LeBron: 20.9 ppg on 41.7% shooting
Durant: 20.3 ppg on 43% shooting
Giannis: 6.8 ppg on 41.4% shooting

I do think some of the Luka hype has gotten out of control. But there is no denying how great he has looked and how good of a season he is having for a rookie. It's actually hard to find a current perimeter player that had a better rookie season than Luka is having right now.

Now there is for sure there Tyreke thing, which is a legit thing to bring up and why I think the Luka hype can get overboard. We don't know if there is a guy getting 20 minutes a game right now, is going to blow up later on like Harden did, or just a solid rookie that continues to get better and better like Curry did. KAT is another example of this. After 1 year everyone was locking KAT in as the next best big in the NBA, now many don't even have him in their top 5 young big men.

So I think it's too early to call Luka a lock to be the next great. But I think we can definitely recognize how good of a season he is having. It is clearly on a different level than Mitchell last year.

Fair point on the TS%. Your last paragraph is essentially my point. From watching the Mav’s games I have, I do think his rebounding is a bit over-rated. I don’t know if NBA.com has a stat on defensive positioning but Luka appears to spend an inordinate amount of time on the low block for a player who is a poor rim protector.

[Wilber85]

Why does Jaren Jackson have more votes?

Ayton is way better than him, and doesnt even have a PG. Think if Ayton had conley!

[stoo]

So Luka is third all-nba in fan votes for the all-star, after Lebron and Giannis

[Bob8]

Dude, what Mitchell, he's a lot worse than Luka at everything including defense. How can you compare those lol. Also is worse than Tyreke's rookie season. I really don't get the hype, inefficient scorer who brings nothing else to the table.

Let’s see.
Mitchell averaged. 20.5 ppg on 43.7% shooting
Luka averages currently 20.3 ppg on 43.6% shooting

Hard to see a lot of difference between those two.

This is kind of disingenuous though. Luka's TS% is 2 points higher. It takes Luka 15 shots to get those 20 points compared to Mitchell's 17 shots. Luka also averages 3 more rebounds and 2 more assists a game. He also triples him in BPM (3.3 vs 1.1).

A few more guys
LeBron: 20.9 ppg on 41.7% shooting
Durant: 20.3 ppg on 43% shooting
Giannis: 6.8 ppg on 41.4% shooting

I do think some of the Luka hype has gotten out of control. But there is no denying how great he has looked and how good of a season he is having for a rookie. It's actually hard to find a current perimeter player that had a better rookie season than Luka is having right now.

Now there is for sure there Tyreke thing, which is a legit thing to bring up and why I think the Luka hype can get overboard. We don't know if there is a guy getting 20 minutes a game right now, is going to blow up later on like Harden did, or just a solid rookie that continues to get better and better like Curry did. KAT is another example of this. After 1 year everyone was locking KAT in as the next best big in the NBA, now many don't even have him in their top 5 young big men.

So I think it's too early to call Luka a lock to be the next great. But I think we can definitely recognize how good of a season he is having. It is clearly on a different level than Mitchell last year.

I know you defended Luka here, but lets talked about hype, which is supposedly gotten out of control.

1. Everything started with some people believing, me included, how he’s the best rookie in this class. Luka confirmed that with an ease. Hype was justified. (I know long term and incredible ceilings of some players can change that. )
2. People believed he will have one of the best rookie seasons since LeBron. Luka has at the moment better numbers than LeBron, playing 7 minutes less. So it looks that hype was justified too.
3. People believe he’s already All Star. 20.3/6.7/5.1 looks solid but not enough on first sight. But if we look at the trend he’s having, things look quite different.

November numbers were, 17.7/6.7/4.2; 3.6 TO
December numbers were, 21.1/6.4/6.1; 3.1 TO
January numbers are, 23.5/7.9/5.5; 2.3 TO
His last 5 games are, 27.4/7/6.4; 2.6 TO

Is the hype really that out of control, if we’re looking at his trend and how he’s playing at that moment? Is 17th place in ORPM really shows only decent starter?

If we add his style of playing, how clutch he is and how people enjoy watching him, I believe the hype is totally justified at the moment. That can change very soon, if he stops delivering. But he’s playing totally according very high expectations at the moment.

[Young gun 6]

Why does Jaren Jackson have more votes?

Ayton is way better than him, and doesnt even have a PG. Think if Ayton had conley!

The poll pretty much opened up around the time JJJ got 30+ points in a game and steam rolled ahead.

He has regressed a fair bit since early on and Ayton is catching him day by day in this poll.

But I’d take the results with a grain of salt. It’s prettt clearly been:

Doncic


Ayton

JJJ

Young (catching)


In my opinion

[King Ken]

Why does Jaren Jackson have more votes?

Ayton is way better than him, and doesnt even have a PG. Think if Ayton had conley!

The poll pretty much opened up around the time JJJ got 30+ points in a game and steam rolled ahead.

He has regressed a fair bit since early on and Ayton is catching him day by day in this poll.

But I’d take the results with a grain of salt. It’s prettt clearly been:

Doncic


Ayton

JJJ

Young (catching)


In my opinion

Are you blind as a bat? Trae been suppassed JJJ. Awhile ago as well. JJJ been regressed since Memphis been regressed. Trae is right there in the top 3 with a gap after that. Even then, Huerter has passed JJJ as well.