Trade Idea Thread II

[Ranma]

The Clippers need help. The starting four of Blake JJ DJ & CP are NOT the problem, I agree. The rest of the team however IS the problem. You wont get the right mix without giving up something. How many teams have an all star PF or C.... those positions are not as easy to replace with quality as a PG. There are good serviceable PG's all over the league. I can thing of at least 15. You don't need an all star PG to win. Derrick Fisher won 5 Championships as a point guard and never was an all-star one time.
You need to get two quality players for one.

Again. Watch some games. The problem is not Chris Paul. It's been our bench, coaching decisions, and moves made by our President of Basketball Operations. Your nickel-and-dime approach to team-building is actually worse than Doc's and that says quite a lot. We have arguably the best starting unit in the NBA even with the hole at SF while the bench has been blowing our leads and you want us to trade away one of the most important pieces, if not the most important, to our team just to get a 2-for-1 clearance special?! Nevermind that we don't even have the roster space to accommodate such a stupid notion.

Try selling that proposal on other forums instead of wasting our time (and apparently water per your screenname). I suspect you've been laughed out of plenty of them already.

[nickhx2]

eh, honestly just sounds like a product of having too many dumb laker fans as friends. or listening to too much skip bayless.

[og15]

I wish the Clips never traded Darren Collison. I felt that Darren performed at the PG just as well as CP in CP's absence, at a third of the pay. Actually DC was quicker and able to drive better. Isiah is even better in my view. David Lee could even play with the starters. Either way a win win in my view. You gotta give up something to get better, in my view... let CP3 go.

Darren is not close to the player CP is, and his playoff performance helped to show that. David Lee is an awful fit for this team, again like all the other proposals where people say the Clippers should add a backup PF that can't actually play C next to Blake. Where are Lee's minutes supposed to come from when you can't play him next to Blake? Of course you could but you won't expect anything on defense. Isaiah and Lee makes little sense for the Clippers. If the Clippers were to trade any of their highest paid guys, the most logical one is DJ.

Also even if the Clippers were going to trade CP to Boston, they would not care for Lee and if you're suggesting Isaiah would be part of the deal, the Clippers would be asking for something more like Isaiah, Crowder, Zeller or another actually useful big and a draft pick and sending over some guys like Smith and Wilcox for the roster space. Essentially you're suggesting that the Clippers trade CP for Thomas with the trade idea you put forth and that's just dumb.

[nickhx2]

if they ever did want to entertain the idea i'd imagine it'd be something like thomas/smart/crowder/brooklyn pick at minimum.

but yeah, the whole discussion is crazy.

[wasteh202]

I'm not a CP hater, nor a Laker fan. Just trying to figure out a fix for the Clippers beside dreaming of somehow obtaining a all-star player like Durant etc. The team needs to get deeper. They don't even have a decent small forward starter. No team is likely to trade the Clippers an all-star to the Clippers without giving up an all-star. I think Blake or DJ have time to grow better. While I think that CP's best years are behind him, and trying to figure out a plan for THIS YEAR. Honestly, it will be difficult to sign another all-star with Blake and DJ's $20M each, and CP's $21M. Somethings gotta give.

[nickhx2]

i don't think it's an unfair opinion to trade one of the all-stars for extended depth and flexibility, depending on what your projected plan is for the team.

but to offer the premise that a career backup is just as good as someone who'll be considered one of the top 3 pg's of all time is a truly uneducated opinion.

[wasteh202]

CP has had a great career, I'll give him that. Top three of all time, hmmm. Not even the best in the league currently in my view. I'll say this, when the Clippers are in the NBA finals and CP is out with his groin strain.... the Clippers are done. Not that they will get past the second round with the current line-up.

[nickhx2]

doesn't matter what you arbitrarily want to give or not give to him. you're here comparing him to darren collison and isiaih thomas. your evaluation of him is planets apart of what kind of player he really is. you wouldn't know what a top 3 pg of all time is.

this isn't fantasy basketball, it's the nba. actually watching the games matters. not some stupid ass PER garbage from a fraud of a statistician.

[wasteh202]

I'm not really comparing him to those guards. I know CP is better, he should be, he gets paid four times as much money. Fact of the matter is in 2013 when CP was out for 19 games with a shoulder separation, Collison took the job and hardly lost a game. The only point I was making is that the Clippers don't necessarily need an all-star PG to be a better team. What makes you think I'm not a Clipper fan and don't watch the games ? Likely I watch more NBA than you do ... you're the fraud.

[nickhx2]

I wish the Clips never traded Darren Collison. I felt that Darren performed at the PG just as well as CP in CP's absence, at a third of the pay. Actually DC was quicker and able to drive better. Isiah is even better in my view.

this is your comparison. you think that these two are adequate placeholders for cp3. again, you're millions of miles off the mark. and he doesn't get paid 4x as much simply because he's better, stop trying to simplify it as such. he is going to be a first ballot hall of famer.

fwiw i didn't say you weren't a clipper fan. i also didn't say you were a laker fan if that's what you thought. but it sure sounds like you've been brainwashed by laker fans your whole life because only they are this ignorant and uneducated when it comes to cp3.

if you really do watch the games you either get it or you don't. if you don't pick up cp3's value at face value i'd suggest looking much closer. or check out the analytical side of his stats which are top tier. this is why i say merely using dumbed down stats like PER and the like are ridiculous because they can't even come close to telling you how good cp3 is. and it is sure sounding like laker fans have been spoon feeding you their drivel for some time now.

[wasteh202]

"Actually DC was quicker and able to drive better. Isiah is even better in my view"
My apology for not being more clear if you took that statement as saying Isiah is better than CP. The intent was that I think Isiah is better than Collison, not CP. Listen pal, you don't know s_it about me and I don't know you. The truth is there has never been a bigger Laker hatter than me. I tuned in more than Laker fans did just to see if anybody could beat them, I cheered every loss they had. Never did like Kobe. I was a Sac Kings fan for many years, till the Maloofs stopped caring about putting a quality product on the floor and were more interested in Las Vegas than NBA ... so you don't know squat about me. Quit pretending you know me. That great, CP3 will be a first round hall of famer, and the Clippers will continue getting knocked out before the Western Conference Finals. Congratulations !!

[nickhx2]

i didn't interpret that statement to you thinking thomas was better than cp3. you said you weren't comparing those pg's to him. i said you were because you're saying that collison produced as well as cp3 did when hurt and thomas is even better than the replacement. to me that's still comparing and i'm telling you that you're flat out wrong in myriad ways.

i don't care what you think about the lakers. i literally don't even care if you're a fan of the team. fandom has no bearing on this. i just know that you're spouting off the same things that they would. or what skip bayless would. you are preaching this absurd narrative based on second round successes, lack of rings, or whatever else you're saying. fact of the matter is that no narrative will ever hold weight to cp3's true impact.

i don't necessarily disagree with trading one guy to accumulate a certain depth or certain amount of flexibility for the future. i don't agree that you need to move one to succeed but i don't think it's an invalid opinion. but when you pose thomas/collison as adequate replacements that means you clearly and grossly underestimate cp3's value on the floor and to a franchise. if you don't believe actual clipper fans then perhaps you may want to go on the trades and transactions section and offer up thomas/lee for cp3 and see how seriously they take you.

[wasteh202]

I said.... when CP was out with the injury, the Clippers won, that's what I said.

You're right, I'm basing my views on the success the clippers have had with CP at the helm. Not all that impressive is it, given that the last two years the expectation was higher.... as is also the case this year. But hey, I'm not blaming CP as much as I'm saying there needs to be a CHANGE. What's your solution ? Sign a super-star ?

[wasteh202]

One change I would make right now if I was Doc Rivers, I would give Wes Johnson more minutes and less for Mbah a Moute. How bout that for starters ? Can we agree on that ?

[Ranma]

I'm not really comparing him to those guards. I know CP is better, he should be, he gets paid four times as much money. Fact of the matter is in 2013 when CP was out for 19 games with a shoulder separation, Collison took the job and hardly lost a game. The only point I was making is that the Clippers don't necessarily need an all-star PG to be a better team. What makes you think I'm not a Clipper fan and don't watch the games ? Likely I watch more NBA than you do ... you're the fraud.

Good grief. You come in here as a newcomer and propose such abominably clueless trade proposals right off the bat and then have the audacity to call someone else a fraud? You're either a troll or a moron. I don't know if either would have the good sense to realize how embarrassing his/her actions are, so I can't tell which one applies to you.

For someone who claims to be a Clippers fan who's watched games, you display a shocking lack of understanding of what makes up good basketball or even a rudimentary understanding of team-building. Even Lakers fans know how valuable Chris Paul is given how butt-hurt most of them still are that Stern nixed the trade to get him into purple and gold.

You cite that there are a lot of capable and good point guards out in the league and figure that most anyone would be a suitable replacement. Not only have you failed to realize the full importance of Paul's influence in boosting the offensive efficiency of his teammates, but you woefully underestimate his importance in keeping those opposing point guards from playing their respective games from the defensive side of things. With a league full of good point guards, Chris Paul's importance has been magnified and not diminished since he's someone who pressures and taxes the opposition at both ends of the court.

When CP3 was out due to injury, you give Collison the credit for keeping the team afloat? Griffin and Crawford were primarily credited for their efforts during that stretch. Collison helped but so did others. Who's keeping the Clippers afloat now that Griffin is out? Collison? He can't even start for the Sacramento Kings. You think maybe Chris Paul and J.J. Redick might have a thing or two to do with the team's excellent play during the current 8-game winning streak?

As I mentioned before, Doc Rivers doesn't even think Collison is a true point guard. A half-intelligent Clippers fan would, or at least should, know this. We're trying to win a championship this season and you think trading Chris Paul helps with that more than trading DeAndre Jordan would? The game has evolved away from the big man and more towards the smaller guards, hence the rise of good point guards. Does DJ lob passes to himself for those alley-oops? Let's also not forget that CP3 was the one who willed us to a win over the San Antonio Spurs in the 1st round of the 2015 playoffs while playing on a bad hamstring, no less. And you think this guy can't help us win? Or wonder why we call you clueless?

Your whole premise of trading Paul for a younger player or two is flawed because it presumes that whatever we get in return would be as valuable over the next few years. Judging by your suggestions, you have no clue whatsoever of what makes an NBA player valuable to a winning team. Yes, Chris Paul's production will decline due to age, but he operates at such an elite level already that a decline in production is still better than what most would provide.

Plus, as nickhx2 noted, if you're going to use numbers to back up whatever cockamamie scheme pops into your head, use something more respectable than LOLlinger's PER. I'll refer you to FiveThirtyEight's CARMELO-based projection model that takes into account both offensive and defensive value in projecting wins above replacement over 6 years. The model does not take into account injuries or minutes limitations and was run on October 27, 2015 so it's relatively recent. Using the players you've cited, we get the following:

Chris Paul: 8th Overall Ranking - 46.3 Upside WAR
Isaiah Thomas: 63rd Overall Ranking - 16.3 Upside WAR
Darren Collison: 126th Overall Ranking - 9.6 Upside WAR
David Lee: 232nd Overall Ranking - 4.7 Upside WAR

Even if you don't factor in fit to a system or the limited amount of playing time available, Chris Paul still comes out much higher than all three of the others combined. In fact, not only did the trio of Thomas, Collison, and Lee come up short with a cumulative Upside WAR of 30.6 but it was over 50% less valuable than Paul's 46.3 in potential wins above replacement by himself. Again, that is not just for this season but the next 6 seasons. When you factor in the amount of time he plays as a starter on top of the limited amount of playing time available for a 12-man roster, it further compounds his worth as a premium player. In the NBA, quality trumps quantity.

Think about that the next time you go dumpster diving or shopping with coupons before buying yourself a clue.

[wasteh202]

I don't hear anybody offering realistic solutions other than the nonsense scribble about signing Carmelo, Dwight Howard or KD. Anybody have any other realistic ideas ?

[Ranma]

At this point, we're probably better off standing pat in developing more of what we have rather than relying on Doc to make another one of his panic moves, which gave us this flawed roster in the first place. Having said that, the team is reportedly looking to trade Josh Smith, Lance Stephenson, and C.J. Wilcox, which is not a big deal since he doesn't even play them any more. Jamal Crawford should go, if for nothing else, to keep Doc from playing him at the worst times.

Having said that, instead of going for the big blockbuster even if it means trading DJ, it makes more sense to try to get something to fill our hole at SF in the starting lineup with the aforementioned trade bait. I've already proposed trading Stephenson, Crawford, and Wilcox (as well as maybe Smith) for Eric Gordon and Kendrick Perkins (as well as maybe something else) in the previous page of this thread, which also included waiting on a buyout for Joe Johnson.

Using those parameters, see if you can come up with something interesting using the ESPN NBA Trade Machine.

[wasteh202]

Trading DJ is not out of the question for me, truthfully it wouldn't have been such a giant issue for the Clips had they not already let Hawes go, not that Hawes gave them anything last year. But I think he's a better player than what he showed last year. The question is who do ya get to replace DJ ? I'm for keeping JJ & Blake, the rest of the team is up for trade in my view. That said, I've got nothing against keeping Wes Johnson and Rivers for the bench. Rivers because the Clips have to have a back up for CP, he will be out with more groin strains. I'd trade DJ to the Wiz for Gortat, then bring in more Clipper names and a third team for a quality SF. I kinda like Wilson Chandler in Denver.

[og15]

I'm not really comparing him to those guards. I know CP is better, he should be, he gets paid four times as much money. Fact of the matter is in 2013 when CP was out for 19 games with a shoulder separation, Collison took the job and hardly lost a game. The only point I was making is that the Clippers don't necessarily need an all-star PG to be a better team. What makes you think I'm not a Clipper fan and don't watch the games ? Likely I watch more NBA than you do ... you're the fraud.

Clippers went 12-6, .667%, regular season percentage was .695, with CP, the team was .710.

One of the nice things that happened while CP was out was that Redick came back for a stretch. Remember that Redick only played 35 games that season. When CP was out, Redick was there for 13 of those 18 games and was very helpful in the Clippers wins against >.500 teams in that stretch. vs Dallas 33 pts, .966 TS%, vs CHI 18/5/.705 TS%, vs TOR 18 pts /.648 TS% vs WAS 20 pts / .784 TS%. He started feeling the effects of his injury and wasn't so good in his last two games, but overall he averaged:
15.5 ppg / 45.7% FG / 44.8% 3PT

In his first 11 games, he averaged:
17.2 ppg / 47.8% FG / 46.6 % 3PT

What all Clippers fans were clearly aware of is that yes, the team is still good, but the team generally has not been able to beat the better teams when one of the stars goes out (duh), even with a solid replacement like Collison. Lost to SA by 24, IND by 14, and GSW by 19.

So your proposal to make the team better now involved downgrading at starting PG, no upgrade at the starting position that has been weak for the past 5 seasons, SF and then adding a PF which is the position of your other superstar / other best player, and this PF can't even play C properly. Not only that, he's expiring and the Clippers won't be re-signing him.

So what exactly is being accomplished here?

[Neddy]

he thinks we "traded" Darren Collison off of this team. can I say LMAO?