Post Game: Dolphins

[ReddRum]

TT and MM are complete idiots! Anyone that defends TT is also a moron. TT knows how to get young talent on a team through the draft Ill give him that. But TT doesn't know or understand how to build a team that wins big games. If TT trades for Lynch weeks ago this team is 5-1 and despite the injurys is looking good.

The defense spends 75% of the game on the field because the Packers don't know how to control the clock or even run a offense. Im glade a 3rd or 4th round pick is worth more than a whole F'N season and going to the playoffs.

We have the worst O-Line in the NFL. It seems like a DE on w/e team we play looks like a hall of famer every week. We knew how bad this O-Line was going into last season and all TT did is draft one tackle and doesn't even bring in any FAs for the biggest hole on this team.

TTs a bum and Im done with the Packers. I love the Packers but I can't suport D-Bags controling and running the team into the ground. Rodgers and Mathews are studs and MVP type players. But any decent players around these two and your a playoff team.

+1 I can't stand seeing this team rot away with Dumb and Dumber at the helm, to hell with both of them!!

[LUKE23]

Is the fact that it's not quantifiable through statistics make it irrelevant? No. And I like how you ignored the fact that the opposing defense gets to rest on the sidelines during those long drives.

It's not quantifiable through ANYTHING, so I have a hard time with someone just throwing things like "momentum" out there to try and make points.

I'm not saying the offense hasn't played poorly. It has. But the defense has also not been able to get off the field, and the fact that you can't see how that would effect the offense is mind boggling.

The fact that you continue to not acknowledge that we can still run our normal offense when down by one TD or less is what is really mind-boggling. The D is decimated and is giving the offense every opportunity and then some to win the game. They are doing their job. Their job is to limit what goes on the scoreboard and they are doing that. Whether you are down by 3-4 points with a 10 minute rest or 3-4 points with a 3 minute rest, YOU'RE STILL DOWN BY 3-4.

[paulpressey25]

Another thing we have to do is stop going with an empty backfield consistently when the opposing team has an elite pass rusher.

I agree with this. But is this situation due to:

a) MM being pass happy

b) MM feeling like Brandon Jackson and John Kuhn suck, hence he just doesn't want to go there? (And didn't Rodgers hint two weeks ago that he didn't want us to run since we had these passing weapons and a mediocre run game)

c) Our offensive line sucking at run blocking and MM wanting to compensate for that problem?

[Newz]

Well our running game hasn't sucked at all the last two weeks. We have done a lot of damage on the ground... We just completely go away from the running game for long periods of time. Rodgers completion percentage has also been awful and it has made us get off of the field quick.

The first two drives were what the Packers should be doing. Stick with the running game, set-up the play action and then cash in big. After that drive we started going empty in the backfield more often and we completely f'ed ourselves over.

Even if Jackson isn't going to run he is excellent at picking up the blitz and is a good receiver out of the backfield. I feel like we need to run more plays out of the I formation and basic 2 WR, 2 RB, 1 TE type formations in general. Keep the teams guessing on what you are going to do...

Not "Oh, we are going to line up 5 wide four plays in a row and pass on you" or "Oh, we are going to put in our blocking FB, blocking TE and then run on you". WTF is that crap? How can you be THAT predictable?

[humanrefutation]

Is the fact that it's not quantifiable through statistics make it irrelevant? No. And I like how you ignored the fact that the opposing defense gets to rest on the sidelines during those long drives.

It's not quantifiable through ANYTHING, so I have a hard time with someone just throwing things like "momentum" out there to try and make points.

I can't believe you're not willing to admit that simple things like momentum, rhythm, and a rested opposing defense would have an effect on the offense. Are you so stubbornly committed to your incomplete argument that you're not willing to acknowledge another cause for the Packers poor play on offense?

I'm not saying the offense hasn't played poorly. It has. But the defense has also not been able to get off the field, and the fact that you can't see how that would effect the offense is mind boggling.

The fact that you continue to not acknowledge that we can still run our normal offense when down by one TD or less is what is really mind-boggling. The D is decimated and is giving the offense every opportunity and then some to win the game. They are doing their job. Their job is to limit what goes on the scoreboard and they are doing that. Whether you are down by 3-4 points with a 10 minute rest or 3-4 points with a 3 minute rest, YOU'RE STILL DOWN BY 3-4.

The offense is getting every opportunity? No, they're getting 17 minutes of opportunity. Is the offense not capitalizing on opportunities? Absolutely, and the defense is not giving up big points. That's all fine and dandy. But when you're not getting off the field, you're not putting the ball in the hands of your offense. When the offense doesn't have the ball, they're not scoring. It's simple, really.

The funny thing is we agree on 95% of these issues. It's just that you're not willing to admit that having a defense that can't 3-and-out it really kills the flow of your offense, invigorates the opposing team, and allows the opposing defense to rest. These have effect on the offense, undoubtedly. It's only one reason why the offense is playing poorly, but it's a reason nonetheless.

[Newz]

I'm willing to bet the reason that they only have the ball for 17 minutes is because they have been horrible at extending drives.

It's also hard to get off of the field when you do finally force a punt/TO and your offense three and outs right away...

Everything points back to the offense. It was supposed to be the strength of this team. Rodgers was supposed to be a legit MVP candidate, Finley was supposed to become the most deadly weapon in the NFL, the offense line was supposed to be better and the WR core was supposed to continue to be very good.

None of that has really come true though, the offense has just sucked.

[humanrefutation]

I'm willing to bet the reason that they only have the ball for 17 minutes is because they have been horrible at extending drives.

It's also hard to get off of the field when you do finally force a punt/TO and your offense three and outs right away...

I agree with this, which is why I think it's circular - the defense doesn't get off the field, the offense has a short drive, the defense doesn't get off the field (the opposing defense gets rest), etc etc. It's horrible momentum wise to spend most of the game on defense, especially when your defense isn't that great.

[Newz]

I'm willing to bet the reason that they only have the ball for 17 minutes is because they have been horrible at extending drives.

It's also hard to get off of the field when you do finally force a punt/TO and your offense three and outs right away...

I agree with this, which is why I think it's circular - the defense doesn't get off the field, the offense has a short drive, the defense doesn't get off the field (the opposing defense gets rest), etc etc. It's horrible momentum wise to spend most of the game on defense, especially when your defense isn't that great.

No the defense gets off of the field, then the offense three and outs, then our already depleted defense starts to get tired and makes a stop, then our offense sputters out again, then our depleted defense is exhausted and gives up a score, then our offense scores in a minute and a half, then our depleted defense is on the field and still exhausted, then our offense puts up another 2 minute drive, then our depleted defense is even MORE tired.

It all points to the offense. Yeah, their defense is fresh... BECAUSE OUR OFFENSE CAN'T PUT TOGETHER A DRIVE LONGER THAN TWO MINUTES.

[Rockmaninoff]

Well our running game hasn't sucked at all the last two weeks. We have done a lot of damage on the ground... We just completely go away from the running game for long periods of time. Rodgers completion percentage has also been awful and it has made us get off of the field quick.

The first two drives were what the Packers should be doing. Stick with the running game, set-up the play action and then cash in big. After that drive we started going empty in the backfield more often and we completely f'ed ourselves over.

Even if Jackson isn't going to run he is excellent at picking up the blitz and is a good receiver out of the backfield. I feel like we need to run more plays out of the I formation and basic 2 WR, 2 RB, 1 TE type formations in general. Keep the teams guessing on what you are going to do...

Not "Oh, we are going to line up 5 wide four plays in a row and pass on you" or "Oh, we are going to put in our blocking FB, blocking TE and then run on you". WTF is that crap? How can you be THAT predictable?

Agreed on the overuse of different formations. I posted on this I believe it was after the Bears loss. It just makes it way too easy to predict what is coming. A clever tactician should be able to run just about every worthwhile play out of one formation. Maybe 2 formations that are related. This way the best personnel is always incorporated, and the simplicity contributes to easier cohesion.

The Packers need to return to basics. Simplify everything, and concentrate on getting that right first. Run the ball, play-action, and work the short routes and the check downs. Make a list of the best plays from McCarthey's tenure, and stick to that. Make the defense prove they can stop it.

In my glory days, my coach told me that we 'run it until it sucks'. Brilliant. For us it was Belly and Trap ad nauseam. If the defense stops it, then get exotic.

As an aside, the defense is the last thing that should be blamed for the offensive ineptitude of 2010 Packers.

[paulpressey25]

Rodgers was supposed to be a legit MVP candidate

I love Aaron Rodgers. Great guy and good QB. But unfortunately we are finding out that he really hasn't replaced Brett Lorenzo Favre.

Certainly he's replaced the 2008 old man Favre who is most recent in our memory. But he's not on the same level of the guy we had during the heyday. Favre seemed to thrive with whatever crap he had to deal with that week, whether it was a terrible line, injuries, bad D, no receivers, no running game. He'd just figure out a way to get done what needed to be done.

No slight on Rodgers, but we all assumed that he could walk in and replace a top-ten of all time QB. He may not be able to do that.

[LUKE23]

No the defense gets off of the field, then the offense three and outs, then our already depleted defense starts to get tired and makes a stop, then our offense sputters out again, then our depleted defense is exhausted and gives up a score, then our offense scores in a minute and a half, then our depleted defense is on the field and still exhausted, then our offense puts up another 2 minute drive, then our depleted defense is even MORE tired.

It all points to the offense. Yeah, their defense is fresh... BECAUSE OUR OFFENSE CAN'T PUT TOGETHER A DRIVE LONGER THAN TWO MINUTES.

Agreed.

[Newz]

IMO, when everyone is healthy we should primarily be running a set that features two backs (Grant/Kuhn), Finley as the TE and two WRs (Jennings with Driver/Jones rotating).

Now, with the injuries we have, I would still be primarily keeping two backs in the game (Jackson/Kuhn) and three receiving options with Jennings and Driver/Quarless/Jones/Nelson all rotating as the no. 2/3 WRs.

Doesn't seem that hard to me. Kuhn and Jackson can both catch out of the backfield and both are good at picking up the blitz. Kuhn is good at running from the FB spot and Jackson has been a threat running the ball the last two weeks... You can even motion Jackson out as a WR and on passing downs take Kuhn out and put in an additional WR.

Calling plays in the NFL doesn't seem like it should be that difficult to me.

[humanrefutation]

I'm willing to bet the reason that they only have the ball for 17 minutes is because they have been horrible at extending drives.

It's also hard to get off of the field when you do finally force a punt/TO and your offense three and outs right away...

I agree with this, which is why I think it's circular - the defense doesn't get off the field, the offense has a short drive, the defense doesn't get off the field (the opposing defense gets rest), etc etc. It's horrible momentum wise to spend most of the game on defense, especially when your defense isn't that great.

No the defense gets off of the field, then the offense three and outs, then our already depleted defense starts to get tired and makes a stop, then our offense sputters out again, then our depleted defense is exhausted and gives up a score, then our offense scores in a minute and a half, then our depleted defense is on the field and still exhausted, then our offense puts up another 2 minute drive, then our depleted defense is even MORE tired.

It all points to the offense. Yeah, their defense is fresh... BECAUSE OUR OFFENSE CAN'T PUT TOGETHER A DRIVE LONGER THAN TWO MINUTES.

See, I don't see much of that. I see a defense not getting off the field, then an offense sputtering, then a defense not getting off the field. Even when they do get off the field without giving up points, it's after a 10 play drive. When the defense doesn't get off the field, it's their fault. Simple. You can't blame the offense when the ball isn't in their hands.

In the Miami game, the Dolphins started with an 11 play drive. Then they had an 8 play drive. Then after a few short drives, they followed it up with a 14 play drive, a 12 play drive, and an 8 play drive. This is only through the 3rd quarter. They had a couple of short drives mixed in, sure. But the Packers scored after one of them (GJ TD pass) and had a decent drive afterwards that sputtered. After that, they never were able to keep the ball.

GB - 7
Miami - 11
GB - 3
Miami - 8
GB - 1 (TD)
Miami - 3
GB - 6
Miami - 4
GB - 8
Miami - 14
GB - 1 (Halftime)
Miami - 12
GB - 5
Miami 8

This is where momentum and rhythm are killed. The defense doesn't get off the field, and the offense doesn't get the ball.

[Newz]

You can't blame the offense when the ball isn't in their hands.

THE BALL IS NEVER IN THEIR HANDS BECAUSE THEY AVERAGE TWO MINUTES AND THIRTY SECONDS PER DRIVE.

Are you being serious in this argument? Are you just ignoring that the offense has been about as bad as it is capable of being?

In the Miami game, the Dolphins started with an 11 play drive. Then they had an 8 play drive. Then after a few short drives, they followed it up with a 14 play drive, a 12 play drive, and an 8 play drive. This is only through the 3rd quarter. They had a couple of short drives mixed in, sure. But the Packers scored after one of them (GJ TD pass) and had a decent drive afterwards that sputtered. After that, they never were able to keep the ball.

Yes, they started with two pretty nice drives... While our offense was doing nothing. Then we started to stop them... While our offense still did nothing... Then as our defense started getting exhausted from being on the field for a majority of the first half and started to give up some big times drive, but still held them to only 20 points... And our offense continued to do next to nothing.

Yes, they had a few short drives mixed in... The Packers had maybe one good offensive drive all day.

[Newz]

GB - 7
Miami - 11
GB - 3
Miami - 8
GB - 1 (TD)
Miami - 3
GB - 6
Miami - 4
GB - 8
Miami - 14
GB - 1 (Halftime)
Miami - 12
GB - 5
Miami 8

This is where momentum and rhythm are killed. The defense doesn't get off the field, and the offense doesn't get the ball.

Our momentum was killed then? Our longest drive up until that point we ran 7 plays. You are trying to show me that our offense was rolling by having a bunch of short, crappy drives and one deep ball for a TD?

When did the offense ever have momentum or any kind of rhythm?

[emunney]

(And didn't Rodgers hint two weeks ago that he didn't want us to run since we had these passing weapons and a mediocre run game)

I don't know that he went that far. It seemed like it was more a personnel package decision than a run v. pass, though the former is probably also there if you want it to be.

[Flames24Rulz]

I don't think Brett Favre ever had a bad line with us. Not until 2005, at least.

Some of those lines that he had to work with were among the best in the league. The line that we had around 02-04 was definitely the best in the NFC, rivaling KC for best in the league. I don't think it's really fair to compare Favre from back then to Rodgers now, seeing as how we've had a patchwork line for the last few seasons.

The defense did fine, all things considered. When Miami scored, I immediately said that our offense needs to come to play today because I was expecting our D to just cave. They fought to keep us in the game and they did. Our offense just blew it. Rodgers wasn't as bad as people are making it out to be, but he wasn't great. A large part of that falls on MM's shoulders for the situations he's putting Rodgers in. Again, it's come to a point where it's almost comical as to what we're going to do and when we're going to do it. You look around the league and you see fans complaining about their coaches and their coordinators and everything like that. Even with all of the significant injuries we have sustained to this point, we really should be 6-0 right now if MM actually does his job.

I come from the mindset that many of you do. This is a throwing team and with our perimeter players and QB, we should be throwing it 65% of the time. But look at what happened yesterday, look what happened last week. The same thing is going on that did last year at this point, early in the season. We're doing WAY too many seven-step drop and throws and not playing to the strength of our receivers. The Tampa loss finally got us back on track and we started running the conditional WCO again with short drop-backs and getting the ball out to the WR's, and letting them make the plays. We've gotten away from that again this year and what do you know? We're losing games. The run is actually doing a terrific job keeping opposing team's on their heels and yet we're still not cashing in. That's really unacceptable.

I'm going to have a real hard time getting excited for next season if we miss the playoffs this year and he's still the head coach. Someone said it yesterday on here and it's true. Dallas has a ton of talent everywhere but can't win because of Wade Phillips and they won't win until he's finally gone. I'm definitely feeling the same way with McCarthy.

[LUKE23]

I'm just baffled how someone can keep repeating that the offense doesn't have the ball a lot, but ignore that the reason they don't have the ball a lot is because they themselves cannot sustain drives to save their life.

The defense does not control what happens when the offense has the ball. The offense does. I'm guessing if you asked MM or Rodgers "does it matter how long you're on the sideline if it's a one score game when the offense comes back on the field", both would answer, "no, it's our job with this amount of talent to get the job done".

[humanrefutation]

You can't blame the offense when the ball isn't in their hands.

THE BALL IS NEVER IN THEIR HANDS BECAUSE THEY AVERAGE TWO MINUTES AND THIRTY SECONDS PER DRIVE.

Are you being serious in this argument? Are you just ignoring that the offense has been about as bad as it is capable of being?

No. This is what the two of you can't seem to understand. I'm not saying that the offense sucks because of the defense, but that the defense's inability to get off the field is a contributing factor in the offense's poor play.

So, to break it down:

The Offense isn't playing well.
The defense's inability to get off the field hurts the offense.
The Offense still ins't playing well.

Is that so ridiculous?

And secondly, the fact that our offense only averages 2:30 per drive is problematic, but we've always been a quick score, big play offense. If they score in a quick play, like they did on the GJ TD, that's a huge momentum boost to your team. If the defense then proceeds to give up a soul-crushing, seemingly never-ending drive, then any momentum you do have is killed.

[Newz]

So, to break it down:

The Offense isn't playing well.
The defense's inability to get off the field hurts the offense.
The Offense still ins't playing well.

Is that so ridiculous?

Yes, it really is ridiculous.

You just tried to make a post showing that our offense couldn't stay on the field because of our defense... Then tried to say that our defense giving up a big play killed momentum. How can you kill an offenses momentum or wreck what it has going when it has nothing going in the first place other than one big passing play?

I can see the argument that the offense is hurting the defense, because it really is.

If the offense was playing well and the defense couldn't get stops, then I would be able to see what you are saying. But the offense is playing bad regardless of what is happening on the defensive side of the ball, so I just cannot comprehend what you are trying to show me.

You are pretty much saying "Look our offense sucks and our defense is playing well. Then our defense starts to get tired and gives up some long drives and our offense still sucks."

Right, our offense sucks either way and they are making the defense tired. What am I not understanding here? In the end our offense sucks either way.