Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 5

[LukasBMW]

The Paul George/Indiana/OKC trade/situation showcases everything RIGHT and WRONG in this league.

It also gives us a great guideline to follow to be entertaining and likable.

Paul George is a superstar who wants to play in LA. He has a big ego and only cares about himself. He forces the Pacers to trade him for what might be considered spare parts.

Result:
-OKC under performs with their new diva superstar
-Indiana plays great team ball and the "spare parts" turn out to be talented basketball players who just needed an opportunity.

Conculsion:
-Don't trade for big ego/big contract "stars." Acquire hard working and talented players willing to play team ball.

[lilfishi22]

The Paul George/Indiana/OKC trade/situation showcases everything RIGHT and WRONG in this league.

It also gives us a great guideline to follow to be entertaining and likable.

Paul George is a superstar who wants to play in LA. He has a big ego and only cares about himself. He forces the Pacers to trade him for what might be considered spare parts.

Result:
-OKC under performs with their new diva superstar
-Indiana plays great team ball and the "spare parts" turn out to be talented basketball players who just needed an opportunity.

Conculsion:
-Don't trade for big ego/big contract "stars." Acquire hard working and talented players willing to play team ball.

That's way too simple. Most stars have egos and all have big contracts. It's very rare to get a superstar who get to where they are without an ego and insane belief in themselves. MJ, Kobe, Shaq are the biggest divas and have the biggest egos in history. Curry has an ego, he probably wouldn't want to play for a smaller market team. Lillard, Griffin, Lebron, Harden, Irving, Beal, Wall, KP, KD, Westbrook, Cousins etc they all have big egos.

If you're trading for a superstar, you're more than likely going to get an ego. Those without egos rarely leave their team they were drafted by unless they are driven out. So if you don't want an ego or a big contract, you're probably not getting a star. The only superstars who doesn't seem to have an ego is probably AD, Kawhi and Greek Freak.

If you're going to rule out players with an ego or a big contract, then you're not gonna get top talent.

[bwgood77]

The Paul George/Indiana/OKC trade/situation showcases everything RIGHT and WRONG in this league.

It also gives us a great guideline to follow to be entertaining and likable.

Paul George is a superstar who wants to play in LA. He has a big ego and only cares about himself. He forces the Pacers to trade him for what might be considered spare parts.

Result:
-OKC under performs with their new diva superstar
-Indiana plays great team ball and the "spare parts" turn out to be talented basketball players who just needed an opportunity.

Conculsion:
-Don't trade for big ego/big contract "stars." Acquire hard working and talented players willing to play team ball.

That's way too simple. Most stars have egos and all have big contracts. It's very rare to get a superstar who get to where they are without an ego and insane belief in themselves. MJ, Kobe, Shaq are the biggest divas and have the biggest egos in history. Curry has an ego, he probably wouldn't want to play for a smaller market team. Lillard, Griffin, Lebron, Harden, Irving, Beal, Wall, KP, KD, Westbrook, Cousins etc they all have big egos.

If you're trading for a superstar, you're more than likely going to get an ego. Those without egos rarely leave their team they were drafted by unless they are driven out. So if you don't want an ego or a big contract, you're probably not getting a star. The only superstars who doesn't seem to have an ego is probably AD, Kawhi and Greek Freak.

If you're going to rule out players with an ego or a big contract, then you're not gonna get top talent.

I like that Indiana team. I don't mind ego, but I do prefer a quiet confidence more than someone who feels entitled and it comes with a big ego. I don't know that a guy like Towns as a big ego. I don't think Duncan, the Gasols, Dirk, Grant HIll (before injury), Nash, etc had big egos...occasionally ego can outweigh talent and cause problems with teammates and coaches as well.

[Mulhollanddrive]

1st, 4th, 5th, 6th seed doesn't sound like a failure for trading for Irving, Butler, George, Cousins.

The most absurd thing I've ever read on RealGM was a Lakers fan saying they don't want James, George, Cousins because they'd prefer to see their young core develop.

[thamadkant]

most championship teams have egotistical stars...

Championship > A team of nice guys



And not every team can be the Spurs, who gets to draft down to earth Uber stars like Admiral, Duncan, Kawhi, Parker, Ginobili etc.

[hollywood6964]

1st, 4th, 5th, 6th seed doesn't sound like a failure for trading for Irving, Butler, George, Cousins.

The most absurd thing I've ever read on RealGM was a Lakers fan saying they don't want James, George, Cousins because they'd prefer to see their young core develop.

Too many people get sold youngitis. They come down with the fever and think they're going to strike gold in just a couple of years. And there's some sort of sense of pride that their team drafted them as well.....I don't care, I had the most fun watching Barkley n the suns go after it. Also hoped Penny would stay healthy (although I knew better), and loved it when we got j-rich. Oh, scratch that last one.

[bwgood77]

1st, 4th, 5th, 6th seed doesn't sound like a failure for trading for Irving, Butler, George, Cousins.

The most absurd thing I've ever read on RealGM was a Lakers fan saying they don't want James, George, Cousins because they'd prefer to see their young core develop.

Too many people get sold youngitis. They come down with the fever and think they're going to strike gold in just a couple of years. And there's some sort of sense of pride that their team drafted them as well.....I don't care, I had the most fun watching Barkley n the suns go after it. Also hoped Penny would stay healthy (although I knew better), and loved it when we got j-rich. Oh, scratch that last one.

Every single one of those teams got super stars or stacked talent in the draft before adding those stars to add to their talent. And yeah, the Suns had been to the WCF twice when they got Barkley.

As Ben Falk, who recently worked in front offices recently pointed out...

A top pick in the draft is one of the best ways for a team to acquire a franchise-changing player. Getting a star via free agency requires max cap room alongside a team that is attractive enough that a star wants to join. Acquiring one through a trade requires a star on another team to become disgruntled near the end of his contract, and a team with enough assets that they can win the bidding and still have a good enough roster to convince the star to stay when his contract is up.

But hit on a top draft pick and the player plays under a contract that is incredibly favorable to the team. The team controls the player for a minimum of 5 years, and because of the negotiating leverage on their first extension, usually has the player under contract for 9 full seasons.

This might be obvious for some (doesn't seem so to others), but stars only move to join other teams with absolute superstars and usually already deep into the playoff mix. Or some of both or a coach they have played for in the past like with Butler and Hayward.

[hollywood6964]

1st, 4th, 5th, 6th seed doesn't sound like a failure for trading for Irving, Butler, George, Cousins.

The most absurd thing I've ever read on RealGM was a Lakers fan saying they don't want James, George, Cousins because they'd prefer to see their young core develop.

Too many people get sold youngitis. They come down with the fever and think they're going to strike gold in just a couple of years. And there's some sort of sense of pride that their team drafted them as well.....I don't care, I had the most fun watching Barkley n the suns go after it. Also hoped Penny would stay healthy (although I knew better), and loved it when we got j-rich. Oh, scratch that last one.

Every single one of those teams got super stars or stacked talent in the draft before adding those stars to add to their talent. And yeah, the Suns had been to the WCF twice when they got Barkley.

As Ben Falk, who recently worked in front offices recently pointed out...

A top pick in the draft is one of the best ways for a team to acquire a franchise-changing player. Getting a star via free agency requires max cap room alongside a team that is attractive enough that a star wants to join. Acquiring one through a trade requires a star on another team to become disgruntled near the end of his contract, and a team with enough assets that they can win the bidding and still have a good enough roster to convince the star to stay when his contract is up.

But hit on a top draft pick and the player plays under a contract that is incredibly favorable to the team. The team controls the player for a minimum of 5 years, and because of the negotiating leverage on their first extension, usually has the player under contract for 9 full seasons.

This might be obvious for some (doesn't seem so to others), but stars only move to join other teams with absolute superstars and usually already deep into the playoff mix. Or some of both or a coach they have played for in the past like with Butler and Hayward.

Obvious points.

[Frank Lee]

as a business model, drafting your way to relevancy it certainly is a much more cost/risk friendly way to go. McD has already made a $72 million mistake with free agent BKnight..... let that sink in for a moment...... he also spent close to $70 million to acquire Chandler and Dudley. This isn't chump change and represents almost 50% of the total salary.

And for what ? McDaycare gets three+ toddlers for every one Knight.

Sarver knows he is operating in a small window. It will stay open for another 2 years before he has to start chunking out the max deal cash. It starts with Booker. By having these 'promising' drafted players, and selling us and the organization on some methodical timeline, Sarver was able to save millions (except for a few of McD's overpays). Sure, he takes a hit at the turnstiles, but the value of the club continues to increase and he gets to operate at a near minimum salary base, all the while grasping onto the theory that eventually the draft will provide a solid foundation sprinkled in with a superstar or two. I dont blame him, and really feel these mega deals will tarnish the league. It is far to risky to pay an athlete 20-30 mill a year guaranteed, and not just from a health perspective.

That party is coming to an end though, as Booker will be our first $20 million man. Whether or not we need another right away depends a lot on his current pack (and the incoming) of youngsters.

[NavLDO]

Again, not defending Sarver, but we were damn close and if it wasn't for a couple of sketchy suspensions and reffing, Sarver may have achieved something Jerry didn't in his 40yr tenure with the Suns.

I think you're confused..."may have" ??? He already did it 2 + years ago-- The first Suns Owner/President to command SIX straight NON-Playoff seasons.

He's on a fantastic pace to make it an even Decade --10 Years-- if he keeps up his current stellar management style.

His ownership certainly could have hindered our GM's ability from getting players we would've been able to sign in the past under Jerry so I'll give you that. But it's not like he's had zero success. And as I said, I think a lot of NBA fans saw our team in the mid-2000's as a team that could've won it all if it wasn't for some dodginess which was entirely unrelated to Sarver being an owner.

I know...I was just taking advantage of the lack of specificity in your original post, is all. I don't completely disagree with you. You are correct about what happened to the Suns...BUT, I would not have taken that team...in it's greatness...against the team we took against the Bulls in '93. I think that team is easily the best team from top to bottom over anything in the mid-2000s, so saying that Sarver almost did something Colangelo never did, when we took a Jordon-led Bulls to 4-2 in the NBA Finals, to me, is a bit disingenuous.

"June 1, 1993 – Colangelo named NBA Executive of the Year for an unprecedented fourth time - no one else has more than two."

"Oct 26, 2016 - Robert Sarver ranked as the worst owner in the NBA."

Those two statements right there are a lot closer to telling the whole, true story...

[NavLDO]

Trust me, its so much easier not to follow this train wreck. I tune in almost every game, but its like a perpetual summer league.

Thjs is the final 'Wait till next year' for me though.


Im very curious if there is a coaching list being formulated.

I'm with you; next year, we need to start off the season with what is expected to be:

- our permanent Head Coach
- our PG of the future (be it Booker, with another Guard not named BK to be our starting SG)
- our Center of the future
- a clear idea on whether Chriss or Bender will be our starting PF who get's 30-ish MPG.

If we go into next season with the attitude "...well, let's see what Knight can do for us, and if he hasn't bettered his game, we'll address it next off-season..." -- I will lose it (even more than I already have). IMO, an example of what I'd like to see, assuming no 'awesome' FA acquisition or Trade...again...example...

...and, making the assumption that these are the top 6, in any order, and we end up 6th...

Ayton, Bamba, Bagley, Porter, Doncic, Young

...Bamba appears to be the one bumped to 6th with Young's meteoric rise, so I'll say Bamba

Then I'll go with Landry Shamet (shooting 52% from 3 with 5.3 asst/gm) for our Mia '18

Shamet / Booker / JJ / Chriss / Bamba

JJ needs to develop and play with starters; our 2 new rookies need to start from the get-go and play real minutes, regardless of how good they are; I don't care. If we are 'building' a new team, then let's 'build a new team'. This half-@ssing it is not getting the job done, and I know BW and I just went round-and-round on this, but c'mon. We aren't getting better until these players play REAL minutes together. Rotate Warren in quickly, and Bender as well, but if those are our core 7, play the core 7 AT LEAST 25 MPG. What we have left on the bench can fill in. If Reed ands up showing well...or Peters...the rest of this season, great! Get them involved a lot as well.

[BobbieL]

Trust me, its so much easier not to follow this train wreck. I tune in almost every game, but its like a perpetual summer league.

Thjs is the final 'Wait till next year' for me though.


Im very curious if there is a coaching list being formulated.

I'm with you; next year, we need to start off the season with what is expected to be:

- our permanent Head Coach
- our PG of the future (be it Booker, with another Guard not named BK to be our starting SG)
- our Center of the future
- a clear idea on whether Chriss or Bender will be our starting PF who get's 30-ish MPG.

If we go into next season with the attitude "...well, let's see what Knight can do for us, and if he hasn't bettered his game, we'll address it next off-season..." -- I will lose it (even more than I already have). IMO, an example of what I'd like to see, assuming no 'awesome' FA acquisition or Trade...again...example...

...and, making the assumption that these are the top 6, in any order, and we end up 6th...

Ayton, Bamba, Bagley, Porter, Doncic, Young

...Bamba appears to be the one bumped to 6th with Young's meteoric rise, so I'll say Bamba

Then I'll go with Landry Shamet (shooting 52% from 3 with 5.3 asst/gm) for our Mia '18

Shamet / Booker / JJ / Chriss / Bamba

JJ needs to develop and play with starters; our 2 new rookies need to start from the get-go and play real minutes, regardless of how good they are; I don't care. If we are 'building' a new team, then let's 'build a new team'. This half-@ssing it is not getting the job done, and I know BW and I just went round-and-round on this, but c'mon. We aren't getting better until these players play REAL minutes together. Rotate Warren in quickly, and Bender as well, but if those are our core 7, play the core 7 AT LEAST 25 MPG. What we have left on the bench can fill in. If Reed ands up showing well...or Peters...the rest of this season, great! Get them involved a lot as well.

I think the key is that top one right there - long term head coach. No more newbies like Watson or Hunter. Even Hornacek was limited in his experience. If its not Triano, Fizdale might be solid Messina from the Spurs has coached a lot of basketball, maybe even Van Gundy. But somebody that has sat his butt in a gym watching basketball and in the pro's.

One name I would like to be considered is Gino Auriemma - that guy can coach. If they want a "college guy" - he would be the guy.

The draft will take care of itself - the six names you mention are right there.

Trade deadline coming up - that will either tell a story about the summer to be (meaning dumping contracts for nothing in return) or set a foundation that the draft can help build on.

We know Monroe is gone by Feb 10 - just who else will be going with him out the door and is anybody coming back

Gambo still wants George Hill - but that will cost Monroe (fine) but also take 20m of cap space next summer. Unless they dump Chandler, Daniels - not sure the team can take on 20m for George Friggin Hill -

[hollywood6964]

as a business model, drafting your way to relevancy it certainly is a much more cost/risk friendly way to go. McD has already made a $72 million mistake with free agent BKnight..... let that sink in for a moment...... he also spent close to $70 million to acquire Chandler and Dudley. This isn't chump change and represents almost 50% of the total salary.

And for what ? McDaycare gets three+ toddlers for every one Knight.

Sarver knows he is operating in a small window. It will stay open for another 2 years before he has to start chunking out the max deal cash. It starts with Booker. By having these 'promising' drafted players, and selling us and the organization on some methodical timeline, Sarver was able to save millions (except for a few of McD's overpays). Sure, he takes a hit at the turnstiles, but the value of the club continues to increase and he gets to operate at a near minimum salary base, all the while grasping onto the theory that eventually the draft will provide a solid foundation sprinkled in with a superstar or two. I dont blame him, and really feel these mega deals will tarnish the league. It is far to risky to pay an athlete 20-30 mill a year guaranteed, and not just from a health perspective.

That party is coming to an end though, as Booker will be our first $20 million man. Whether or not we need another right away depends a lot on his current pack (and the incoming) of youngsters.

And they've sold "we're young though!" To the fan base, and some have eaten it up, including a lot on this board.

My brother likes this young crap. About 10 years ago the diamondbacks sold this "babybacks" BS to the fanbase, n he fell for it, hook n line. I told him it's just a way for them to save money n sell you a bad team.

Plenty of teams stay relevent n rebuild at the same time, with only a 2 or 3 year span where they suck. In phx we're going on 10, n the fans are still making excuses for it.

[matt131]

Read on Twitter

[King4Day]

Let the rumors begin...

Read on Twitter

The Hornets have made Kemba Walker available in trade discussions, per @wojespn.

[RaisingArizona]

COME ON BABY!!!

[BobbieL]

Let the rumors begin...

Read on Twitter

The Hornets have made Kemba Walker available in trade discussions, per @wojespn.

Kidd Gilchrist/Kemba for Monroe, Daniels, Chriss and Milwaukee pick

I am sure others can offer more but that is a lot of cap savings

[King4Day]

Charlotte should focus on Fultz and/or Saric in a big package.

[Book1Nation]

Let the rumors begin...

Read on Twitter

The Hornets have made Kemba Walker available in trade discussions, per @wojespn.

Kidd Gilchrist/Kemba for Monroe, Daniels, Chriss and Milwaukee pick

I am sure others can offer more but that is a lot of cap savings

I am so down with this.

Walker | Ulis | Canaan
Booker | Reed
Warren | Jackson
Bender | Kidd Gilchrist
Chandler | Len

Use MKG like the Nets use Hollis-Jefferson as a small ball 4.

Offense on that 2nd unit would be lacking, but the defense would be nasty af and I'd try to have one of Walker/Booker out there at all times running point.

[BobbieL]

Charlotte should focus on Fultz and/or Saric in a big package.

I wonder if the Suns can somehow use that 17m of expiring Monroe to their advantage though. Get involved in a three way deal perhaps.

I also look at a team like the TWolves - they are 4th - perhaps with Kawhi out could push to 3 (which gets them out of the GSW side of the bracket at least one more round) - would Tyson Chandler and Troy Daniels help them. The Wolves have four dudes with expirings: Aldrich, well basically, small option, Bjelinca, Brooks and a 4th dude. Hll, give them the Toronto second rounder. The Grizz second has become much more valuable. Trade Machine it works

That's another 14m of expiring the Suns could use in a deal if you take all four players. Meaning take those four players - ship them to Charlotte for Cody Zeller. Charlotte would be getting a lot of expiring contracts, plus Chriss and maybe some picks.