Frank Thread 3: FIBA Frank Aftermath

[MadGrinch]

Another night of shamm pushing the trier/RJ backcourt smh....

well, while everyone fights between them, i'm not a big fan of dennis or frank. trier at least has shown that he has an actual nba skill-set that's useful. i can't really say that about those other two. and it's also about who fits with rj. rj has to start because him being successful is the most important goal for this franchise going forward. more than winning games or making the playoffs, the main goal for this year should be making sure he's catered to and developed. he's the highest draft pick in 30 something years. if he fails it's real bad for everyone involved. i would rather the knicks win 17 games and he's in the rookie of the year conversation than them make the playoffs and he has a lackluster year. they're selling the knicks being good as important to attract free agents but him being good is really more important.

the thing about Trier is that he's almost useless when he's not iso'ing because he doesn't move without the ball , his shots per minute are basically even with dotson .

his usage is less than virtually every offensive player on the roster last season and on a 65 loss team with many of it younger players are taking more of an offensive initiative, that has to be a major red flag.

[DOT]

Another night of shamm pushing the trier/RJ backcourt smh....

well, while everyone fights between them, i'm not a big fan of dennis or frank. trier at least has shown that he has an actual nba skill-set that's useful. i can't really say that about those other two. and it's also about who fits with rj. rj has to start because him being successful is the most important goal for this franchise going forward. more than winning games or making the playoffs, the main goal for this year should be making sure he's catered to and developed. he's the highest draft pick in 30 something years. if he fails it's real bad for everyone involved. i would rather the knicks win 17 games and he's in the rookie of the year conversation than them make the playoffs and he has a lackluster year. they're selling the knicks being good as important to attract free agents but him being good is really more important.

I mean, if your goal is fit with RJ and who makes him better, should go with Dot over Trier

Gives RJ the ball in his hands like the entire game so he can inflate his stats, is still a good shooter so he stretches the floor, and is a significantly better defender than Trier

Imo, we're not gonna be good no matter what we do, so we should just play DSJ/RJ/Knox. Should be DSJ/Frank/RJ/Knox, but we signed Randle so all 4 can't start, and there's no way Fiz is bumping anyone down for Frank. Just play the kids and develop them

But we're gonna end up with Payton/RJ/Morris/Randle, and then Payton and Morris bounce after this year. Same as every year.

[god shammgod]

Another night of shamm pushing the trier/RJ backcourt smh....

well, while everyone fights between them, i'm not a big fan of dennis or frank. trier at least has shown that he has an actual nba skill-set that's useful. i can't really say that about those other two. and it's also about who fits with rj. rj has to start because him being successful is the most important goal for this franchise going forward. more than winning games or making the playoffs, the main goal for this year should be making sure he's catered to and developed. he's the highest draft pick in 30 something years. if he fails it's real bad for everyone involved. i would rather the knicks win 17 games and he's in the rookie of the year conversation than them make the playoffs and he has a lackluster year. they're selling the knicks being good as important to attract free agents but him being good is really more important.

I mean, if your goal is fit with RJ and who makes him better, should go with Dot over Trier

Gives RJ the ball in his hands like the entire game so he can inflate his stats, is still a good shooter so he stretches the floor, and is a significantly better defender than Trier

Imo, we're not gonna be good no matter what we do, so we should just play DSJ/RJ/Knox. Should be DSJ/Frank/RJ/Knox, but we signed Randle so all 4 can't start, and there's no way Fiz is bumping anyone down for Frank. Just play the kids and develop them

But we're gonna end up with Payton/RJ/Morris/Randle, and then Payton and Morris bounce after this year. Same as every year.

trier is the better natural shooter and they specifically told him to take more 3s which has been his focus this summer. his catch and shoot numbers already are great he just didn't have the attempts. he's quicker and the better ball handler and can bring the ball up sometimes too so rj doesn't always have to. he can lead the break. throw a lob. he has some limited point guard abilities. h's also the best player on the team at creating for himself so he's a great bailout option to have out there.

dotson is another way to go that makes some sense though. the defense will be somewhat better but i'm not sure how well he'll guard the 1 either. and his shot kind of comes and goes. he does cut a lot though which would be a bonus. i still think i prefer trier though.

[3toheadmelo]

Trier and RJ backcourt will lead us back to another top 3 pick. I’ll take my chances with DSJ and RJ or even Frank and RJ if DSJ sucks.

[mpharris36]

Trier has got to make more than .8 3’s a game before I call him a knock down shooter. He had a solid percentage but I think that is due to a lack of attempts. If he was taking 5-6 3’s a game no way he shoots close to 40%. That isn’t his game.

This is not even getting into the argument that trier and RJ would be a disaster defensively in the backcourt. Mitch would foul out in the 1st qtr with these two getting blown by guards with any quickness.

[mpharris36]

Trier and RJ backcourt will lead us back to another top 3 pick. I’ll take my chances with DSJ and RJ or even Frank and RJ if DSJ sucks.

I happen to agree. My first pairing would be frank and RJ. But DsJ at least can defend the opposition while I don’t think he’s a great fit offensively with RJ it’s a better pairing then trier and RJ for sure.

[DOT]

well, while everyone fights between them, i'm not a big fan of dennis or frank. trier at least has shown that he has an actual nba skill-set that's useful. i can't really say that about those other two. and it's also about who fits with rj. rj has to start because him being successful is the most important goal for this franchise going forward. more than winning games or making the playoffs, the main goal for this year should be making sure he's catered to and developed. he's the highest draft pick in 30 something years. if he fails it's real bad for everyone involved. i would rather the knicks win 17 games and he's in the rookie of the year conversation than them make the playoffs and he has a lackluster year. they're selling the knicks being good as important to attract free agents but him being good is really more important.

I mean, if your goal is fit with RJ and who makes him better, should go with Dot over Trier

Gives RJ the ball in his hands like the entire game so he can inflate his stats, is still a good shooter so he stretches the floor, and is a significantly better defender than Trier

Imo, we're not gonna be good no matter what we do, so we should just play DSJ/RJ/Knox. Should be DSJ/Frank/RJ/Knox, but we signed Randle so all 4 can't start, and there's no way Fiz is bumping anyone down for Frank. Just play the kids and develop them

But we're gonna end up with Payton/RJ/Morris/Randle, and then Payton and Morris bounce after this year. Same as every year.

trier is the better natural shooter and they specifically told him to take more 3s which has been his focus this summer. his catch and shoot numbers already are great he just didn't have the attempts. he's quicker and the better ball handler and can bring the ball up sometimes too so rj doesn't always have to. he can lead the break. throw a lob. he has some limited point guard abilities. h's also the best player on the team at creating for himself so he's a great bailout option to have out there.

dotson is another way to go that makes some sense though. the defense will be somewhat better but i'm not sure how well he'll guard the 1 either. and his shot kind of comes and goes. he does cut a lot though which would be a bonus. i still think i prefer trier though.

Is he?

Legit question, he shot 39% to Dot's 37%, but Dot took more than double the amount of 3s Trier did (and roughly twice as much per36). Catch and shoot was at 44% to Dot's 37%, but he only took 64 catch and shoot 3s last year. It's the inverse efficiency to volume argument, is he really a 44% C&S guy, or is it just cause he only took them if they were wide open? I think he's probably closer to 39% at volume which is good but again, is that really that much better than Dot, especially when you consider defense?

[Deeeez Knicks]

Another night of shamm pushing the trier/RJ backcourt smh....

well, while everyone fights between them, i'm not a big fan of dennis or frank. trier at least has shown that he has an actual nba skill-set that's useful. i can't really say that about those other two. and it's also about who fits with rj. rj has to start because him being successful is the most important goal for this franchise going forward. more than winning games or making the playoffs, the main goal for this year should be making sure he's catered to and developed. he's the highest draft pick in 30 something years. if he fails it's real bad for everyone involved. i would rather the knicks win 17 games and he's in the rookie of the year conversation than them make the playoffs and he has a lackluster year. they're selling the knicks being good as important to attract free agents but him being good is really more important.

the thing about Trier is that he's almost useless when he's not iso'ing because he doesn't move without the ball , his shots per minute are basically even with dotson .

his usage is less than virtually every offensive player on the roster last season and on a 65 loss team with many of it younger players are taking more of an offensive initiative, that has to be a major red flag.

Trier shot 44% on catch and shoot 3's so I think he can be a good off the ball player and help spread the more. He is def not useless off the ball. As a team we were poor with off the ball movement so I think that is more on coaching and lack of a system last year. Hopefully that changes this year.

[god shammgod]

I mean, if your goal is fit with RJ and who makes him better, should go with Dot over Trier

Gives RJ the ball in his hands like the entire game so he can inflate his stats, is still a good shooter so he stretches the floor, and is a significantly better defender than Trier

Imo, we're not gonna be good no matter what we do, so we should just play DSJ/RJ/Knox. Should be DSJ/Frank/RJ/Knox, but we signed Randle so all 4 can't start, and there's no way Fiz is bumping anyone down for Frank. Just play the kids and develop them

But we're gonna end up with Payton/RJ/Morris/Randle, and then Payton and Morris bounce after this year. Same as every year.

trier is the better natural shooter and they specifically told him to take more 3s which has been his focus this summer. his catch and shoot numbers already are great he just didn't have the attempts. he's quicker and the better ball handler and can bring the ball up sometimes too so rj doesn't always have to. he can lead the break. throw a lob. he has some limited point guard abilities. h's also the best player on the team at creating for himself so he's a great bailout option to have out there.

dotson is another way to go that makes some sense though. the defense will be somewhat better but i'm not sure how well he'll guard the 1 either. and his shot kind of comes and goes. he does cut a lot though which would be a bonus. i still think i prefer trier though.

Is he?

Legit question, he shot 39% to Dot's 37%, but Dot took more than double the amount of 3s Trier did (and roughly twice as much per36). Catch and shoot was at 44% to Dot's 37%, but he only took 64 catch and shoot 3s last year. It's the inverse efficiency to volume argument, is he really a 44% C&S guy, or is it just cause he only took them if they were wide open? I think he's probably closer to 39% at volume which is good but again, is that really that much better than Dot, especially when you consider defense?

you're comparing rookie numbers to second year numbers. i think with a summer to focus on it he'll be even better. he also looks like the better shooter to my eyes. and with a defender running at him and forced to put it on the floor before shooting he's much superior.

it's not gonna happen anyway. he's gonna be paired with dennis who's the worst possible pairing for him. it's just like luka and dennis. rj won't be in control of the ball enough.

[Deeeez Knicks]

I am with Sham on this one and I like the idea of an RJ/Trier backcourt in the right lineups. I think RJ is best as a facilitator and would want to surround him with players that can spread the floor and/or defend. Payton seems like a bad fit. Maybe Frank can take that leap. But the issue with RJ/DSJ is that both seem like really bad off the ball players. At least Trier can shoot pretty well.

Ideally, I think Frank has the potential to be a nice fit if he can play like he did in FIBA.

No matter what we will probably be bad though

If we are building around RJ and Mitch, I do kinda like these type of lineups though where we can put RJ as a facilitator...spread the floor

Mitch
Morris or Randle
Iggy or Dotson
Frank or Trier
RJ

[god shammgod]

look, in a perfect world you'd have someone who could defend the 1 and catch and shoot 3s, create for himself and occasionally others at times next to rj. there's nobody like that but trier is the closest. he just needs to become decent defensively. he's physically up the task and might be better suited guarding the 1 because he's slightly undersized with short arms at the 2.

[GONYK]

I am with Sham on this one and I like the idea of an RJ/Trier backcourt in the right lineups. I think RJ is best as a facilitator and would want to surround him with players that can spread the floor and/or defend. Payton seems like a bad fit. Maybe Frank can take that leap. But the issue with RJ/DSJ is that both seem like really bad off the ball players. At least Trier can shoot pretty well.

Ideally, I think Frank has the potential to be a nice fit if he can play like he did in FIBA.

No matter what we will probably be bad thought.

If we are building around RJ and Mitch, I do kinda like these type of lineups though where we can put RJ as a facilitator

Mitch
Morris or Randle
Iggy or Dotson
Frank or Trier
RJ

Honest question: Is RJ a facilitator, or just a player that thrives with the ball in his hands?

I don't see him as a player who's primarily concerned with making plays for others. He's trying to score. He's got above average vision, and can make some plays for sure, but he's not someone who has shown enough to be a primary initiator at this stage in his career, IMO.

[3toheadmelo]

trier is the better natural shooter and they specifically told him to take more 3s which has been his focus this summer. his catch and shoot numbers already are great he just didn't have the attempts. he's quicker and the better ball handler and can bring the ball up sometimes too so rj doesn't always have to. he can lead the break. throw a lob. he has some limited point guard abilities. h's also the best player on the team at creating for himself so he's a great bailout option to have out there.

dotson is another way to go that makes some sense though. the defense will be somewhat better but i'm not sure how well he'll guard the 1 either. and his shot kind of comes and goes. he does cut a lot though which would be a bonus. i still think i prefer trier though.

Is he?

Legit question, he shot 39% to Dot's 37%, but Dot took more than double the amount of 3s Trier did (and roughly twice as much per36). Catch and shoot was at 44% to Dot's 37%, but he only took 64 catch and shoot 3s last year. It's the inverse efficiency to volume argument, is he really a 44% C&S guy, or is it just cause he only took them if they were wide open? I think he's probably closer to 39% at volume which is good but again, is that really that much better than Dot, especially when you consider defense?

you're comparing rookie numbers to second year numbers. i think with a summer to focus on it he'll be even better. he also looks like the better shooter to my eyes. and with a defender running at him and forced to put it on the floor before shooting he's much superior.

it's not gonna happen anyway. he's gonna be paired with dennis who's the worst possible pairing for him. it's just like luka and dennis. rj won't be in control of the ball enough.

You’re fired

[DOT]

I am with Sham on this one and I like the idea of an RJ/Trier backcourt in the right lineups. I think RJ is best as a facilitator and would want to surround him with players that can spread the floor and/or defend. Payton seems like a bad fit. Maybe Frank can take that leap. But the issue with RJ/DSJ is that both seem like really bad off the ball players. At least Trier can shoot pretty well.

Ideally, I think Frank has the potential to be a nice fit if he can play like he did in FIBA.

No matter what we will probably be bad though

If we are building around RJ and Mitch, I do kinda like these type of lineups though where we can put RJ as a facilitator...spread the floor

Mitch
Morris or Randle
Iggy or Dotson
Frank or Trier
RJ

Fun fact

DSJ shot 34% from 3 on catch and shoot situations in Dallas, at 2 per game

It's not amazing or anything, but it does show he can work off ball if you have a good facilitator next to him. Shot 20% from 3 on catch and shoot with us, so it seems like more of an us problem than a DSJ problem

[Knicksfan1992]

I am with Sham on this one and I like the idea of an RJ/Trier backcourt in the right lineups. I think RJ is best as a facilitator and would want to surround him with players that can spread the floor and/or defend. Payton seems like a bad fit. Maybe Frank can take that leap. But the issue with RJ/DSJ is that both seem like really bad off the ball players. At least Trier can shoot pretty well.

Ideally, I think Frank has the potential to be a nice fit if he can play like he did in FIBA.

No matter what we will probably be bad thought.

If we are building around RJ and Mitch, I do kinda like these type of lineups though where we can put RJ as a facilitator

Mitch
Morris or Randle
Iggy or Dotson
Frank or Trier
RJ

Honest question: Is RJ a facilitator, or just a player that thrives with the ball in his hands?

I don't see him as a player who's primarily concerned with making plays for others. He's trying to score. He's got above average vision, and can make some plays for sure, but he's not someone who has shown enough to be a primary initiator at this stage in his career, IMO.

Watch his NCAA tournament games from last year. He largely played as the teams PG in that stretch and played very unselfishly and with his teammates in mind.

He's obviously a guy who likes to score, but I think him being a "chucker" had to do with the team construct at Duke. Zion was great but he wasn't much of a self creator. He was more like an hyper elite play finisher. Cam was trash most of the season and was pretty much limited to spot up duty and very limited playmaking opportunities.

RJ was really the only guy on that team who could handle the ball on the perimeter and get his own shot. I think as he adjusts to the NBA you'll see him become more of a passer with better talent around him.

[NYKnickerbocker]

If frank can shoot, he fits with anyone

[mpharris36]

look, in a perfect world you'd have someone who could defend the 1 and catch and shoot 3s, create for himself and occasionally others at times next to rj. there's nobody like that but trier is the closest. he just needs to become decent defensively. he's physically up the task and might be better suited guarding the 1 because he's slightly undersized with short arms at the 2.

Everything you mentioned we need is what frank was during FIBA ball.

Actually I would argue frank is the closest if he just can knock down the 3 at league average. He’s a better facilitator than trier, and a significantly better defender. He just needs to shoot it better. End of discussion lol

[Deeeez Knicks]

I am with Sham on this one and I like the idea of an RJ/Trier backcourt in the right lineups. I think RJ is best as a facilitator and would want to surround him with players that can spread the floor and/or defend. Payton seems like a bad fit. Maybe Frank can take that leap. But the issue with RJ/DSJ is that both seem like really bad off the ball players. At least Trier can shoot pretty well.

Ideally, I think Frank has the potential to be a nice fit if he can play like he did in FIBA.

No matter what we will probably be bad thought.

If we are building around RJ and Mitch, I do kinda like these type of lineups though where we can put RJ as a facilitator

Mitch
Morris or Randle
Iggy or Dotson
Frank or Trier
RJ

Honest question: Is RJ a facilitator, or just a player that thrives with the ball in his hands?

I don't see him as a player who's primarily concerned with making plays for others. He's trying to score. He's got above average vision, and can make some plays for sure, but he's not someone who has shown enough to be a primary initiator at this stage in his career, IMO.

I think RJ is def a facilitator. Maybe ideally he is more of a secondary facilitator, and not really a primary one....or at least not right now. it is probably asking a lot for him to run the offense now. But we dont really have many great facilitators and I think he can play that role in stretches for us. It will probably be one of those cases where we share the responsibilities.

But if we put him in lineups with shooters and defenders I think he has the best chance for success. And I know he will probably go thru some struggles and it could get ugly at times but it may help him in the end.

[NYKAL]

Another night of shamm pushing the trier/RJ backcourt smh....

well, while everyone fights between them, i'm not a big fan of dennis or frank. trier at least has shown that he has an actual nba skill-set that's useful. i can't really say that about those other two. and it's also about who fits with rj. rj has to start because him being successful is the most important goal for this franchise going forward. more than winning games or making the playoffs, the main goal for this year should be making sure he's catered to and developed. he's the highest draft pick in 30 something years. if he fails it's real bad for everyone involved. i would rather the knicks win 17 games and he's in the rookie of the year conversation than them make the playoffs and he has a lackluster year. they're selling the knicks being good as important to attract free agents but him being good is really more important.

the thing about Trier is that he's almost useless when he's not iso'ing because he doesn't move without the ball , his shots per minute are basically even with dotson .

his usage is less than virtually every offensive player on the roster last season and on a 65 loss team with many of it younger players are taking more of an offensive initiative, that has to be a major red flag.

yet, at the same time, he was the ONLY guard that shot the ball at a decent percentage, inside and outside the arc. As such, I fully expect him to compete for the 6th man role.

[god shammgod]

I am with Sham on this one and I like the idea of an RJ/Trier backcourt in the right lineups. I think RJ is best as a facilitator and would want to surround him with players that can spread the floor and/or defend. Payton seems like a bad fit. Maybe Frank can take that leap. But the issue with RJ/DSJ is that both seem like really bad off the ball players. At least Trier can shoot pretty well.

Ideally, I think Frank has the potential to be a nice fit if he can play like he did in FIBA.

No matter what we will probably be bad thought.

If we are building around RJ and Mitch, I do kinda like these type of lineups though where we can put RJ as a facilitator

Mitch
Morris or Randle
Iggy or Dotson
Frank or Trier
RJ

Honest question: Is RJ a facilitator, or just a player that thrives with the ball in his hands?

I don't see him as a player who's primarily concerned with making plays for others. He's trying to score. He's got above average vision, and can make some plays for sure, but he's not someone who has shown enough to be a primary initiator at this stage in his career, IMO.

Watch his NCAA tournament games from last year. He largely played as the teams PG in that stretch and played very unselfishly and with his teammates in mind.

He's obviously a guy who likes to score, but I think him being a "chucker" had to do with the team construct at Duke. Zion was great but he wasn't much of a self creator. He was more like an hyper elite play finisher. Cam was trash most of the season and was pretty much limited to spot up duty and very limited playmaking opportunities.

RJ was really the only guy on that team who could handle the ball on the perimeter and get his own shot. I think as he adjusts to the NBA you'll see him become more of a passer with better talent around him.

yep. and you saw it towards the end of summer league as well. he found mitch more consistently than i've ever seen anyone do last year and it opened up the rest of his game. the kid can be a triple double threat if you put him in that position. i think telling him that his job is to facilitate will lead to him focusing on it. i think it's a better plan than fiz turning him into the next tim hardaway jr next to a souped up mudiay in dennis. hi melo.

i'm pretty sure mecca said someone from the knicks said that they want to develop him in this way. i hope it's true.