If Lebron is the GOAT then how did he allow younger star players to catch him in rings already in his era?

[lakerz12]

Bron been to the finals more than anybody else since who knows who, probably somebody from the 70s or 80s going to the finals 8 straight times like he did more impressive than winning multiple rings

It's a team game though, right? You have to give a lot of credit to Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh for 4 of those Final's appearances. And, don't forgot to credit Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love for the next 4 as well.

Not to mention all of the other teammates and coaches.

[LastNameEver]

goat talent but no longer in contention for goat player. Not even if he wins 3 more rings, hes just not the candidate..too vulnerable, too pouty.

[Bornstellar]

Because he isn't the GOAT. But he is the 2nd best player of all-time in my eyes. And the premise of this thread doesnt really make sense anyway

[IgorK]

Kobe has zero argument for best player on his team for 3 of his championships, so stop right there.

And even if some players of Lebron have as many rings as he does, so what? The next tie breaker would be what? Probably either how many Finals overall you've lead your team to, or MVP Awards.
So who wins if we look at those stats next?

What a weak argument. LBJ wasn't best player for his first ring, either. He also needed TWO other stars to win 3 (Wade+Bosh in Miami, Love & Irving in Clevelad). Kobe only had 1 certified star for all 5 of his rings.

Shaq = 2 stars and Bynum and Gasol are two stars. Stop mentioning Kobe in the same breathe as Lebron. They are on different tiers.

I didn't know Lakers played 4 on 5 since Shaq=2 stars. Bynum a star? What are you smoking, son?

You're right though - Kobe and LeBron aren't on the same level. Kobe's far greater.

[Bankai]

LeBron has a 33% win rate in the Finals, the only negative rate out of anybody within GOAT consideration. This permanently denies him GOAT status. Jordan is the GOAT, this fad of claiming LeBron is, by ESPN loudmouths, is ridiculous.

[Ainosterhaspie]

LeBron has a 33% win rate in the Finals, the only negative rate out of anybody within GOAT consideration. This permanently denies him GOAT status.

...in the minds of those utterly incapable of critical thinking and rational thought.

[XxIronChainzxX]

Bron been to the finals more than anybody else since who knows who, probably somebody from the 70s or 80s going to the finals 8 straight times like he did more impressive than winning multiple rings

It's a team game though, right? You have to give a lot of credit to Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh for 4 of those Final's appearances. And, don't forgot to credit Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love for the next 4 as well.

Not to mention all of the other teammates and coaches.

We're overselling those contributions. By the 3rd and 4th Finals trips Wade had fallen off a ton. As for Kyrie and Love... LeBron carried a team to the Finals twice without either of them. And he did it once with superstars like Big Z. Part of that is the quality of the conference too, but I don't think it's unfair to give LeBron most of the credit. The flip side is that he's unlikely to have done it as often in the West unless he had a comparable team.

[lakerz12]

Bron been to the finals more than anybody else since who knows who, probably somebody from the 70s or 80s going to the finals 8 straight times like he did more impressive than winning multiple rings

It's a team game though, right? You have to give a lot of credit to Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh for 4 of those Final's appearances. And, don't forgot to credit Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love for the next 4 as well.

Not to mention all of the other teammates and coaches.

We're overselling those contributions. By the 3rd and 4th Finals trips Wade had fallen off a ton. As for Kyrie and Love... LeBron carried a team to the Finals twice without either of them. And he did it once with superstars like Big Z. Part of that is the quality of the conference too, but I don't think it's unfair to give LeBron most of the credit. The flip side is that he's unlikely to have done it as often in the West unless he had a comparable team.

Yes, highly unlikely, since his team only won 3 of the 9 Finals.

In theory that means if you put all of his teams in the West he would have only made it to 3 Finals total. Not an exact calculation of course, but obviously his Finals' total would be less in the West.

His 9 total and 8 straight trips to the Finals is impressive. But he definitely got a huge assist from being in the East. And also pairing up with other stars.

[XxIronChainzxX]

It's a team game though, right? You have to give a lot of credit to Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh for 4 of those Final's appearances. And, don't forgot to credit Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love for the next 4 as well.

Not to mention all of the other teammates and coaches.

We're overselling those contributions. By the 3rd and 4th Finals trips Wade had fallen off a ton. As for Kyrie and Love... LeBron carried a team to the Finals twice without either of them. And he did it once with superstars like Big Z. Part of that is the quality of the conference too, but I don't think it's unfair to give LeBron most of the credit. The flip side is that he's unlikely to have done it as often in the West unless he had a comparable team.

Yes, highly unlikely, since his team only won 3 of the 9 Finals.

In theory that means if you put all of his teams in the West he would have only made it to 3 Finals total. Not an exact calculation of course, but obviously his Finals' total would be less in the West.

His 9 total and 8 straight trips to the Finals is impressive. But he definitely got a huge assist from being in the East. And also pairing up with other stars.

That's not how it works, because who knows what matchup you get. The 60 Mavs in Dirk's MVP year probably make the WCF or FinKs if they don't stupidly play their way into the Warriors.

It would be like saying Lakers couldn't make the Finals the year they lost to the Pistons or Celtics. Or that Kobe wouldn't be a top 15 player if he ended up drafted by the Nets.

If LeBron ends up in the West he potentially gets a better FO, and wouldn't be able to lift a team to the playoffs as fast.

It's all too hypothetical for me.

[lakerz12]

We're overselling those contributions. By the 3rd and 4th Finals trips Wade had fallen off a ton. As for Kyrie and Love... LeBron carried a team to the Finals twice without either of them. And he did it once with superstars like Big Z. Part of that is the quality of the conference too, but I don't think it's unfair to give LeBron most of the credit. The flip side is that he's unlikely to have done it as often in the West unless he had a comparable team.

Yes, highly unlikely, since his team only won 3 of the 9 Finals.

In theory that means if you put all of his teams in the West he would have only made it to 3 Finals total. Not an exact calculation of course, but obviously his Finals' total would be less in the West.

His 9 total and 8 straight trips to the Finals is impressive. But he definitely got a huge assist from being in the East. And also pairing up with other stars.

That's not how it works, because who knows what matchup you get. The 60 Mavs in Dirk's MVP year probably make the WCF or FinKs if they don't stupidly play their way into the Warriors.

It would be like saying Lakers couldn't make the Finals the year they lost to the Pistons or Celtics. Or that Kobe wouldn't be a top 15 player if he ended up drafted by the Nets.

If LeBron ends up in the West he potentially gets a better FO, and wouldn't be able to lift a team to the playoffs as fast.

It's all too hypothetical for me.

That's why I said "in theory" and "not an exact calculation of course".

Regardless, the fact that he lost 6 out of 9 is a fact. And it shows that winning the East was only a consolation prize. And that his team wasn't the best team in the entire league, only in the Eastern Conference.

Honestly, if we are talking about a true GOAT candidate, we shouldn't even have to hang our hats on "trips to the Finals" . . . that's why people put MJ above and rightfully so.

[XxIronChainzxX]

Yes, highly unlikely, since his team only won 3 of the 9 Finals.

In theory that means if you put all of his teams in the West he would have only made it to 3 Finals total. Not an exact calculation of course, but obviously his Finals' total would be less in the West.

His 9 total and 8 straight trips to the Finals is impressive. But he definitely got a huge assist from being in the East. And also pairing up with other stars.

That's not how it works, because who knows what matchup you get. The 60 Mavs in Dirk's MVP year probably make the WCF or FinKs if they don't stupidly play their way into the Warriors.

It would be like saying Lakers couldn't make the Finals the year they lost to the Pistons or Celtics. Or that Kobe wouldn't be a top 15 player if he ended up drafted by the Nets.

If LeBron ends up in the West he potentially gets a better FO, and wouldn't be able to lift a team to the playoffs as fast.

It's all too hypothetical for me.

That's why I said "in theory" and "not an exact calculation of course".

Regardless, the fact that he lost 6 out of 9 is a fact. And it shows that winning the East was only a consolation prize. And that his team wasn't the best team in the entire league, only in the Eastern Conference.

I didn't do a good job with that post. I wasn't trying to say he'd win more - for all we know he never makes more than 1 or 2. KG never did it. Dirk only did it twice. Kobe without Shaq managed it 3 times. Shaq never did it until Kobe came into his own prime.

I think making as many Finals as he did over the sad sack East is a testament to how good LeBron is, and it's a shame we didn't get him on a contender early on like Kobe or Magic to really see him clash against the best. Although the Lakers didn't exactly face powerhouses in the West in the 80s.

[LivingLegend]

This is why Lebron will never be in the same tier as Kobe

This is true at least. LeBron will never be demoted to Kobe's tier.

Lebron took too many losses in the Finals to be considered on the same level as Kobe. If Lebron wins one more ring then yea maybe we can consider him better than Kobe or on the same level

Kobe was the best player on his own team for 2 of his 5 rings. LeBron was the best in all 3 of his on top of being better than him at every single counting statistic not only in both the regular season, but playoffs and Finals as well.

[DimesandKnicks]

What a weak argument. LBJ wasn't best player for his first ring, either. He also needed TWO other stars to win 3 (Wade+Bosh in Miami, Love & Irving in Clevelad). Kobe only had 1 certified star for all 5 of his rings.

Shaq = 2 stars and Bynum and Gasol are two stars. Stop mentioning Kobe in the same breathe as Lebron. They are on different tiers.

I didn't know Lakers played 4 on 5 since Shaq=2 stars. Bynum a star? What are you smoking, son?

You're right though - Kobe and LeBron aren't on the same level. Kobe's far greater.

I didn't know you wouldn't understand figurative language.

You must be a gen xers that just started watching basketball. Bynum was being talked about as arguably n the best Center in the league at the time, regardless of rather you were alive or not.

[azcatz11]

Shaq = 2 stars and Bynum and Gasol are two stars. Stop mentioning Kobe in the same breathe as Lebron. They are on different tiers.

I didn't know Lakers played 4 on 5 since Shaq=2 stars. Bynum a star? What are you smoking, son?

You're right though - Kobe and LeBron aren't on the same level. Kobe's far greater.

I didn't know you wouldn't understand figurative language.

You must be a gen xers that just started watching basketball. Bynum was being talked about as arguably n the best Center in the league at the time, regardless of rather you were alive or not.

Gen Z'er

[IgorK]

I didn't know Lakers played 4 on 5 since Shaq=2 stars. Bynum a star? What are you smoking, son?

You're right though - Kobe and LeBron aren't on the same level. Kobe's far greater.

I didn't know you wouldn't understand figurative language.

You must be a gen xers that just started watching basketball. Bynum was being talked about as arguably n the best Center in the league at the time, regardless of rather you were alive or not.

Gen Z'er

Don't correct assumption machine Baby Boomer who knows everything.

[NeutralObserver]

Shaq = 2 stars and Bynum and Gasol are two stars. Stop mentioning Kobe in the same breathe as Lebron. They are on different tiers.

I didn't know Lakers played 4 on 5 since Shaq=2 stars. Bynum a star? What are you smoking, son?

You're right though - Kobe and LeBron aren't on the same level. Kobe's far greater.

I didn't know you wouldn't understand figurative language.

You must be a gen xers that just started watching basketball. Bynum was being talked about as arguably n the best Center in the league at the time, regardless of rather you were alive or not.

The bold is a GREAT EXAMPLE of something that never happened and created by a Lebron cultist hellbent on revisionist history.

[NeutralObserver]

Lebron stans in 2022:

Shannon Brown = Wade
DJ Mbenga = Bosh


"Look how much help Kobe had OFF THE BENCH. If Lebron played with Sasha Vujecic, he'd have 5 rings, too."

[IgorK]

Lebron stans in 2022:

Shannon Brown = Wade
DJ Mbenga = Bosh


"Look how much help Kobe had OFF THE BENCH. If Lebron played with Sasha Vujecic, he'd have 5 rings, too."

Everybody knows Sasha is basically the best Euro to ever play the game.

[-Sammy-]

I didn't know Lakers played 4 on 5 since Shaq=2 stars. Bynum a star? What are you smoking, son?

You're right though - Kobe and LeBron aren't on the same level. Kobe's far greater.

I didn't know you wouldn't understand figurative language.

You must be a gen xers that just started watching basketball. Bynum was being talked about as arguably n the best Center in the league at the time, regardless of rather you were alive or not.

The bold is a GREAT EXAMPLE of something that never happened and created by a Lebron cultist hellbent on revisionist history.

No, it did happen, though not until a few years after L.A. won its last title. He was all-NBA second team in 2012, which means voters considered only Dwight to be a better center.

[-Sammy-]

I feel like any comments that contain the phrasing '(player name) lost in the Finals # times' or '(player name) won # titles' can be safely ignored, on both sides of the debate. Players don't win or lose playoff series' and they don't win titles. There are no individual names on any championship trophy, and there are no title banners hanging in any player's house.

If someone is trying to attribute an NBA championship or a playoff series win or loss to a single player, they either misunderstand the nature of this team sport or they have a singular agenda to prop their guy up and/or tear another guy down.