The 2019-20 Luka Dončić Thread

[ShotCreator]

It might be in the long run when opponents will have specifically built gameplans to stop him and especially in POs.

Sure maybe. I mean we can all postulate whatever we want. But again back to Parker--you don't think teams went into games saying we can't let this guy get to the rim at will? And yet for a decade nobody could stop it.

Yeah but i think it's harder to build a gameplan to stop someone who has decent skill who is either faster or stronger (if not both) than anyone (so in one word, a physical freak) than to stop someone who relies much more on pure skill.

Luka is definitely not relying on pure skill.

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It’s pretty visible watching him.

These are two examples that immediately pop into my head just from yesterday.

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It’s absolutely insane for a 6’7” 230 pound man to be able to stop pretty much like a machine would or something. It makes his strength an absolutely devastating attribute.

He had another one I can’t find where Capela switches on him, and he starts right, with one dribble, stops on a dime, uses a hesitation dribble and pretty much eliminates Capelas positioning advantage and got a layup/foul draw/kickout/ whatever(Mavs scored so much only god knows). Can’t find it.

His athleticism is unique and subtle, especially for a point guard but it’s not anything less than good to me.

[zimpy27]

His floor game reminds me of 6'7 Curry. Watch the way he moves, stops and starts, handles the ball and even passes. Turnover prone game is also a strong similarity.

His interior game and decision making is similar to LeBrons and outside game is similar to Hardens.

He reminds me of Kobe in that he too seems to learn the game as a skill mimic, instead of following MJ alone he has followed LeBron, Harden, Curry.

[RSCD3_]

He also doesnt have the typicl trex arms of other european players, he's 6'7 and his standing reach is 8'9.5 which is a 0.5 shorter than lebrons so he probably has at lwast a good 6'10 wingspan which will help his defensive abilities.

I mean joe ingles was supposed to be a stiff on defense but he used hisnfunctional speed and wingspan to be pretty good on that end. Depending on the support offensively doncic gets he could be alright to good on that end

[freethedevil]

physical tools

No he does not. He can't jump high and he lacks any lateral agility. Literally the only way he's going to be eve nuetral defensively is jokic-esque vision.

His physical tools are not at all suited for good defense

are we still going with "he can't jump hence he can't be more than a average efender" take after all the endless discussions about how IQ can play a major role??

At the minimum it means saying he has the physical tools for it is absurd.

Of course, I don't]quote] believe Doncic will become a notable defender either due to his limited "fixed" physical traits. As far as improvable physical tools are concerned, Doncic is still a baby and Europe doesn't emphasize "body-building" and strenght conditioning like the NBA does (simply different requirements). He only has 1 serious "strenght" season under his belt and I think the Mavs staff is still trying to find out what plan is compatible with his natural offensive skills and agility. Jokic is not a good comparison given that his ability to keep his shape is average (for a normal human being). I think he could peak as a +0.5/+1 defender in the future with good effort from him.

Strength is useless unless you can jump or move laterally well. He's only peaking as a positive with atg level vision. ATM, there's zero reason to thinking he'll ever be better defensively than harden

[Dr Spaceman]

No he does not. He can't jump high and he lacks any lateral agility. Literally the only way he's going to be eve nuetral defensively is jokic-esque vision.

His physical tools are not at all suited for good defense

are we still going with "he can't jump hence he can't be more than a average efender" take after all the endless discussions about how IQ can play a major role??

At the minimum it means saying he has the physical tools for it is absurd.

Of course, I don't]quote] believe Doncic will become a notable defender either due to his limited "fixed" physical traits. As far as improvable physical tools are concerned, Doncic is still a baby and Europe doesn't emphasize "body-building" and strenght conditioning like the NBA does (simply different requirements). He only has 1 serious "strenght" season under his belt and I think the Mavs staff is still trying to find out what plan is compatible with his natural offensive skills and agility. Jokic is not a good comparison given that his ability to keep his shape is average (for a normal human being). I think he could peak as a +0.5/+1 defender in the future with good effort from him.

Strength is useless unless you can jump or move laterally well. He's only peaking as a positive with atg level vision. ATM, there's zero reason to thinking he'll ever be better defensively than harden

This couldn’t be further from the truth. Strength is the #1 factor in being able to guard forwards 1v1 and defensive rebounding as well. PJ Tucker does as good a job guarding Durant and Giannis as anyone despite being totally ground bound and giving up 6-8 inches. Strength is crucial for defensive rebounding as well which Luka is already elite at.

Luka will guard the worst offensive wing/forward on the other team and just try to not get totally roasted if he switches onto a guard. On]their than that, he can be more than adequate as a defender with his traits.

[Dr Spaceman]

Sure maybe. I mean we can all postulate whatever we want. But again back to Parker--you don't think teams went into games saying we can't let this guy get to the rim at will? And yet for a decade nobody could stop it.

Yeah but i think it's harder to build a gameplan to stop someone who has decent skill who is either faster or stronger (if not both) than anyone (so in one word, a physical freak) than to stop someone who relies much more on pure skill.

Luka is definitely not relying on pure skill.

Read on Twitter

?lang=en


It’s pretty visible watching him.

These are two examples that immediately pop into my head just from yesterday.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

It’s absolutely insane for a 6’7” 230 pound man to be able to stop pretty much like a machine would or something. It makes his strength an absolutely devastating attribute.

He had another one I can’t find where Capela switches on him, and he starts right, with one dribble, stops on a dime, uses a hesitation dribble and pretty much eliminates Capelas positioning advantage and got a layup/foul draw/kickout/ whatever(Mavs scored so much only god knows). Can’t find it.

His athleticism is unique and subtle, especially for a point guard but it’s not anything less than good to me.

Surprise surprise another white player underrated for his athleticism lol.

Luka is extremely fluid, his change of direction is elite, he’s strong as a bull and has good size and length. That’s an amazing athlete, just not very-top tier.

Trae Young to me is actually a lot more polished from a skill perspective at this point, and would be a guy I’d more likely say relies heavily on skill. Luka has a ton of upside still as far as that’s concerned. Trae is much better at creating play making angles and more dynamic around the rim. Luka has that LeBron style passing where he just looks over everyone’s head and flings it cross-court on a rope.

[freethedevil]

At the minimum it means saying he has the physical tools for it is absurd.

Of course, I don't]quote] believe Doncic will become a notable defender either due to his limited "fixed" physical traits. As far as improvable physical tools are concerned, Doncic is still a baby and Europe doesn't emphasize "body-building" and strenght conditioning like the NBA does (simply different requirements). He only has 1 serious "strenght" season under his belt and I think the Mavs staff is still trying to find out what plan is compatible with his natural offensive skills and agility. Jokic is not a good comparison given that his ability to keep his shape is average (for a normal human being). I think he could peak as a +0.5/+1 defender in the future with good effort from him.

Strength is useless unless you can jump or move laterally well. He's only peaking as a positive with atg level vision. ATM, there's zero reason to thinking he'll ever be better defensively than harden

This couldn’t be further from the truth. Strength is the #1 factor in being able to guard forwards 1v1

Abasolutely not. The most important thing in 1 v1 defense is staying in front of them. And if you aren't laterally quick you can't stay in front of good players. The only way your strength becomes useful is if your teammates overcompensate to help you i which case, that's not you, that's your teammates doing your job.

Luka will guard the worst offensive wing/forward on the other team and [.quote]
Only being utilized against the weakest attackers is a negative trait yeah. Even small guys like Curry and Lowry are able to irritate and funnell the likes of harden and lebron while retaining their utility on smalls like lou williams. A player who can only be of any use against weak players is a bad man defender. And if you're a bad man defender you need to make up for it via off-ball value. Alas...

just try to not get totally roasted if he switches onto a guard.

He's not quick enough to do that. He's going to get blown right by unless his teammates overhelp in which case you're giving something up to cover for Luka.

On]their than that, he can be more than adequate as a defender with his traits.

An adequate defender needs to be able too contribue something. What does Luka offer? Rim protection? Nope. Quick rotations? Nope. Passable man d? Nope. Unless he pulls a jokic and becomes a transcedent defensive anticipator, he isn't going to be "adequate," and if he does it won't have anything to do with his physical tools which are less equipped for defense than trae young.

[Ambrose]

Strength is useless unless you can jump or move laterally well. He's only peaking as a positive with atg level vision. ATM, there's zero reason to thinking he'll ever be better defensively than harden

This couldn’t be further from the truth. Strength is the #1 factor in being able to guard forwards 1v1

Abasolutely not. The most important thing in 1 v1 defense is staying in front of them. And if you aren't laterally quick you can't stay in front of good players. The only way your strength becomes useful is if your teammates overcompensate to help you i which case, that's not you, that's your teammates doing your job.

Luka will guard the worst offensive wing/forward on the other team and [.quote]
Only being utilized against the weakest attackers is a negative trait yeah. Even small guys like Curry and Lowry are able to irritate and funnell the likes of harden and lebron while retaining their utility on smalls like lou williams. A player who can only be of any use against weak players is a bad man defender. And if you're a bad man defender you need to make up for it via off-ball value. Alas...

He's not quick enough to do that. He's going to get blown right by unless his teammates overhelp in which case you're giving something up to cover for Luka.

An adequate defender needs to be able too contribue something. What does Luka offer? Rim protection? Nope. Quick rotations? Nope. Passable man d? Nope. Unless he pulls a jokic and becomes a transcedent defensive anticipator, he isn't going to be "adequate," and if he does it won't have anything to do with his physical tools which are less equipped for defense than trae young.

He's already decent when he tries. With more experience, getting in better shape and continuing to add strength there is no question he'll be able to be a solid defender. He already has great anticipation.

[freethedevil]

Abasolutely not. The most important thing in 1 v1 defense is staying in front of them. And if you aren't laterally quick you can't stay in front of good players. The only way your strength becomes useful is if your teammates overcompensate to help you i which case, that's not you, that's your teammates doing your job.

An adequate defender needs to be able too contribue something. What does Luka offer? Rim protection? Nope. Quick rotations? Nope. Passable man d? Nope. Unless he pulls a jokic and becomes a transcedent defensive anticipator, he isn't going to be "adequate," and if he does it won't have anything to do with his physical tools which are less equipped for defense than trae young.

He's already decent when he tries.

"When he tries" is a silly qualifier added to defend players who aren't good off the ball or whose impact doesn't reflect their defensive perception(cough kawhi, cough, kd, cough). It doesn't matter how good you are when you try, it matters how good you are. Luka doesn't try enough because he lacks the speed or verticality to. Maybe his anticipation is enough, it doesn't change that his physical tools are horrible for good nba defense.

[Ambrose]

An adequate defender needs to be able too contribue something. What does Luka offer? Rim protection? Nope. Quick rotations? Nope. Passable man d? Nope. Unless he pulls a jokic and becomes a transcedent defensive anticipator, he isn't going to be "adequate," and if he does it won't have anything to do with his physical tools which are less equipped for defense than trae young.

He's already decent when he tries.

"When he tries" is a silly qualifier added to defend players who aren't good off the ball or whose impact doesn't reflect their defensive perception(cough kawhi, cough, kd, cough). It doesn't matter how good you are when you try, it matters how good you are. Luka doesn't try enough because he lacks the speed or verticality to. Maybe his anticipation is enough, it doesn't change that his physical tools are horrible for good nba defense.

This is nonsense. He doesn't try enough because he's tasked with one of the largest offensive workloads in the NBA and his conditioning isn't up to the point it should be yet. It has nothing to do with his physical attributes.

[freethedevil]

"When he tries" is a silly qualifier added to defend players who aren't good off the ball or whose impact doesn't reflect their defensive perception(cough kawhi, cough, kd, cough). It doesn't matter how good you are when you try, it matters how good you are. Luka doesn't try enough because he lacks the speed or verticality to. Maybe his anticipation is enough, it doesn't change that his physical tools are horrible for good nba defense.

This is nonsense. He doesn't try enough because he's tasked with one of the largest offensive workloads in the NBA

\Yes, and as he gets credit for his offense he should get criticized for his defense.

and his conditioning isn't up to the point it should be yet. It has nothing to do with his physical attributes.

Will conditioning make him jump higher or move quicker? Because if not, then his physical tools are not equipped for either perimiter or paint defense, in which case, he's physically a negative defender.

[Ambrose]

"When he tries" is a silly qualifier added to defend players who aren't good off the ball or whose impact doesn't reflect their defensive perception(cough kawhi, cough, kd, cough). It doesn't matter how good you are when you try, it matters how good you are. Luka doesn't try enough because he lacks the speed or verticality to. Maybe his anticipation is enough, it doesn't change that his physical tools are horrible for good nba defense.

This is nonsense. He doesn't try enough because he's tasked with one of the largest offensive workloads in the NBA

\Yes, and as he gets credit for his offense he should get criticized for his defense.

and his conditioning isn't up to the point it should be yet. It has nothing to do with his physical attributes.

Will conditioning make him jump higher or move quicker? Because if not, then his physical tools are not equipped for either perimiter or paint defense, in which case, he's physically a negative defender.

Umm...yes, yes it will. That's usually how conditioning works. Combine that with his anticipation/instincts and he'll be more than capable. I have no issue with his defense being criticized. However, saying he has no chance of ever being an average defender because of his physical profile is ridiculous.

[freethedevil]

\Yes, and as he gets credit for his offense he should get criticized for his defense.

Will conditioning make him jump higher or move quicker? Because if not, then his physical tools are not equipped for either perimiter or paint defense, in which case, he's physically a negative defender.

Umm...yes, yes it will. That's usually how conditioning works. Combine that with his anticipation/instincts and he'll be more than capable. I have no issue with his defense being criticized. However, saying he has no chance of ever being an average defender because of his physical profile is ridiculous.

Conditioning does not improve your lateral agility or your vertical reach. I didn't say he had no chance, i said he would need transcendent vision to make up for his clear physical shortcomings. Have you read any of the posts you've responded to?

[Ambrose]

Will conditioning make him jump higher or move quicker? Because if not, then his physical tools are not equipped for either perimiter or paint defense, in which case, he's physically a negative defender.

Umm...yes, yes it will. That's usually how conditioning works. Combine that with his anticipation/instincts and he'll be more than capable. I have no issue with his defense being criticized. However, saying he has no chance of ever being an average defender because of his physical profile is ridiculous.

Conditioning does not improve your lateral agility or your vertical reach. I didn't say he had no chance, i said he would need transcendent vision to make up for his clear physical shortcomings. Have you read any of the posts you've responded to?

Yes, it does. No, he doesn't. I don't need to when you're making mistakes right now. If you don't think being in better shape makes you quicker or better vertically I don't know what to tell you.

[Jaivl]

I mean, another european super-athlete like Ricky Rubio had no problem being a top tier guard defender with basically nothing but quick hands and elite IQ.

Dončić isn't gonna get nowhere near him, but... come on.

[therealbig3]

Larry Bird didn't have a great vertical or good lateral quickness...was clearly a good defender. Dirk Nowitzki didn't have a great vertical or good lateral quickness, he developed into a positive impact defender. Steve Nash, same deal. He was average, not terrible, not great. Older LeBron...doesn't have a great standstill vertical nor does he have great lateral quickness, still a positive impact defender this year because he's hustling and making great reads. Mostly it's his effort though.

Being a strong defensive rebounder who's intelligent, doesn't make too many mistakes, and hustles on defense is pretty much what you need in order to be a positive impact defender if you're not a super athlete. It's mostly about how you're able to fit into a team concept anyway. In today's league, you're going to get beat or screened off no matter how good you are, it's more about being able to recover and rotate. Which, like I said, takes intelligence and effort.

[therealbig3]

As for Doncic's physical tools: quick hands, coordinated, strong, and his instincts are amazing...being able to predict where the ball is going to be based on its trajectory is an instinctual thing, and I include it as part of his physical skills...it's what made Rodman the greatest rebounder of all time.

[freethedevil]

Umm...yes, yes it will. That's usually how conditioning works. Combine that with his anticipation/instincts and he'll be more than capable. I have no issue with his defense being criticized. However, saying he has no chance of ever being an average defender because of his physical profile is ridiculous.

Conditioning does not improve your lateral agility or your vertical reach. I didn't say he had no chance, i said he would need transcendent vision to make up for his clear physical shortcomings. Have you read any of the posts you've responded to?

I don't need to when you're making mistakes right now.

No, you do:

However, saying he has no chance of ever being an average defender

I never said he had no chance. If you aren't willing to admit you've spent the last 5 posts attacking a strawman then don't waste my time.

If you don't think being in better shape makes you quicker or better vertically

[/quote]
Stamina does not increase verticality or lateral agility. That's not a subjective opinion, that is biology. You don't know what to tell me because you don't know.

[NY 567]

Luka to me is a mix of LeBron James, James Harden and Steve Nash minus the elite athleticism of LeBron(Although his lack of athletism is way overstated imo) but with better rebounding. The kid is just absolute freak, to me when I think generational talents of the last 30 or so years I think Jordan, I think Shaq, I think LeBron, and now I think Luka. He's the best prospect since LeBron and that includes Curry, Durant and Giannis.

[Ambrose]

Conditioning does not improve your lateral agility or your vertical reach. I didn't say he had no chance, i said he would need transcendent vision to make up for his clear physical shortcomings. Have you read any of the posts you've responded to?

I don't need to when you're making mistakes right now.

No, you do:

However, saying he has no chance of ever being an average defender

I never said he had no chance. If you aren't willing to admit you've spent the last 5 posts attacking a strawman then don't waste my time.

If you don't think being in better shape makes you quicker or better vertically

Stamina does not increase verticality or lateral agility. That's not a subjective opinion, that is biology. You don't know what to tell me because you don't know. [/quote]

How do you increase stamina? Are there any other benefits that come along with increased stamina? Are there benefits to losing weight? Did I misinterpret something you said? Sure. That doesn't change the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about in regards to him.