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OT: COVID-19 thread #2

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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#181 » by Dresden » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:59 am

Lunartic wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Prettyconspiracy theorists put in major administration roles.

This Hydroxychloroquine/Zinc fake-news debacle is just another headache to deal with. It's one thing for doctors in desperate situations (like NY or Italy) to try the cocktail as a last-resort measure for patients with very dangerous COVID symptoms (and who also don't have heart issues which make the drug potentially lethal), but to pedal it into the "fanbase" with super small-sample field studies (36 people for christ's sake, not randomized, and a lop-sided control group, in that French "study") by what appear to be mostly "maverick" quack doctors (look up these guys, the "LA Doctor", Zelensky, Raoult). Their credentials are extremely suspicious while they contradict the statements by almost every prominent infectious disease expert.
).
.


What are you talking about?

Hydrochloriquine is already being used all over the world including South Korea (doctors there have credited it with their low death rate) The USA is using it in NY as well.

You're spreading false information.

Hydrochloriquine is obviously not going to cure everyone but there is great efficacy in using it combined with an antibiotic.

I understand you believing that Trump might be shilling it in order to restore hope in curbing Covid deaths but why would the French President and China and South Korea, India, Japan and multiple other countries be using it to great effect?


I would like to see some verification of your claim that "the French President and China and South Korea, India, Japan and multiple other countries be using it to great effect".

This article from UK's Guardian, goes into the hype around this possible treatment, including debunking the original French study that put it on the map: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/06/hydroxychloroquine-trump-coronavirus-drug.

"But even more important than these shortcomings in the design of the study is how the researchers chose to measure and report their results. Forty-two patients were initially included in the study. Three were transferred to the intensive care unit; one died, one left the hospital, and one stopped taking the treatment due to nausea. The other 36 eventually recovered, and those who received the drug cleared the virus from the system faster than those who did not.

If you had only heard about this study from the Fox News assertion of a “100% cure rate”, you might assume that the four patients with poor clinical outcomes (the three ICU visits and one death) had been unlucky enough to be in the group that did not receive the “cure”.

And yet, those four patients, as well as the patient with nausea and the one who left the hospital early, were all part of the treatment group. They were excluded from the topline results of the study because of the way that the researchers chose to measure and report the results: strictly based on the measurable presence of viruses in nasal swabs taken each day of the study. Since the patients were in the ICU or dead, their samples could not be taken and they were left out of the final analysis. Based on the nasal swabs of just the 36 patients who completed the study, those who received the drug cleared the virus from their systems faster than those who did not.

This is how an experiment in which 15% of the treatment group and 0% of the control had poor clinical outcomes could end up being reported as showing a “100% cure rate”."
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#182 » by dice » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:20 am

Lunartic wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:Prettyconspiracy theorists put in major administration roles.

This Hydroxychloroquine/Zinc fake-news debacle is just another headache to deal with. It's one thing for doctors in desperate situations (like NY or Italy) to try the cocktail as a last-resort measure for patients with very dangerous COVID symptoms (and who also don't have heart issues which make the drug potentially lethal), but to pedal it into the "fanbase" with super small-sample field studies (36 people for christ's sake, not randomized, and a lop-sided control group, in that French "study") by what appear to be mostly "maverick" quack doctors (look up these guys, the "LA Doctor", Zelensky, Raoult). Their credentials are extremely suspicious while they contradict the statements by almost every prominent infectious disease expert.
).
.


What are you talking about?

Hydrochloriquine is already being used all over the world including South Korea (doctors there have credited it with their low death rate) The USA is using it in NY as well.

You're spreading false information.

Hydrochloriquine is obviously not going to cure everyone but there is great efficacy in using it combined with an antibiotic.

this has not been proven. it's mostly anecdotal. the limited studies have shown mixed results (though none negative, at least in the short-term). you're spreading false information

why would the French President and China and South Korea, India, Japan and multiple other countries be using it to great effect?

where's the data?

you have to use huge doses of the drug to attempt to treat coronavirus, which makes toxicity a concern

"For the 85% of patients with mild to moderate symptoms that will go home, they don’t need this treatment and don’t want this treatment – it’s not valuable to them, it doesn’t offer any benefit," said Dr. Eric Cioe-Pena,director of Global Health at Northwell Health in New Hyde Park, New York. "There could be minimal risk, but still risk. Risk of an allergic reaction is really a risk of a side effect, and they are going to get better anyway."

and there are potential heart issues, particularly in the higher risk individuals who are most likely to face major issues w/ COVID-19:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/06/trump-hydroxychloroquine-fact-check/

not to mention the possibility that if everybody starts taking swings in the dark with this particular drug, the people who actually need it for PROVEN uses will have trouble acquiring it
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#183 » by ImSlower » Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:03 am

Here is another article cautioning the bandwagoning onto hydroxychloroquine as a miracle cure, this time by The Atlantic if The Guardian is too British.

The Atlantic is quite the wordy publication, but in brief, the article very specifically mentions a lot of documented scientific research that basically says "Hey guys, pump the breaks on this quinine stuff a bit, please." We are all desperate for some good news, and a miracle drug would be just the best. Hope is a very strong motivator on both sides of the aisle. From what I've read, hydroxychloroquine sounds far too unconfirmed to be faithfully vetted by anyone.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#184 » by tedwilliams1999 » Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:27 am

Lunartic wrote:What are you talking about?

Hydrochloriquine is already being used all over the world including South Korea (doctors there have credited it with their low death rate) The USA is using it in NY as well.

You're spreading false information.

Hydrochloriquine is obviously not going to cure everyone but there is great efficacy in using it combined with an antibiotic.

I understand you believing that Trump might be shilling it in order to restore hope in curbing Covid deaths but why would the French President and China and South Korea, India, Japan and multiple other countries be using it to great effect?


We're certainly using hydroxychloroquine, like the rest of the world, but honestly we shouldn't be. The Infectious Diseases Society of America released their guidelines yesterday, and they're only recommending its use in clinical trials going forward:

https://www.idsociety.org/practice-guideline/covid-19-guideline-treatment-and-management/
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#185 » by TallDude » Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:34 am

tedwilliams1999 wrote:
Lunartic wrote:What are you talking about?

Hydrochloriquine is already being used all over the world including South Korea (doctors there have credited it with their low death rate) The USA is using it in NY as well.

You're spreading false information.

Hydrochloriquine is obviously not going to cure everyone but there is great efficacy in using it combined with an antibiotic.

I understand you believing that Trump might be shilling it in order to restore hope in curbing Covid deaths but why would the French President and China and South Korea, India, Japan and multiple other countries be using it to great effect?


We're certainly using hydroxychloroquine, like the rest of the world, but honestly we shouldn't be. The Infectious Diseases Society of America released their guidelines yesterday, and they're only recommending its use in clinical trials going forward:

https://www.idsociety.org/practice-guideline/covid-19-guideline-treatment-and-management/


Hydrochloriquine Is used also in Finland. But it is not a cure. It might help somebody a bit. But not everybody. I Belive we have somekind of cure after summer.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#186 » by robert76 » Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:11 am

"France reported 43 cases of heart incidents linked to treating coronavirus patients with hydroxychloroquine, the malaria drug President Donald Trump has repeatedly touted as a potential “game changer.”"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-10/france-reports-heart-incidents-linked-to-drug-promoted-by-trump
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#187 » by PlayerUp » Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:43 am

robert76 wrote:"France reported 43 cases of heart incidents linked to treating coronavirus patients with hydroxychloroquine, the malaria drug President Donald Trump has repeatedly touted as a potential “game changer.”"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-10/france-reports-heart-incidents-linked-to-drug-promoted-by-trump


Which is why you should only take it if you have a confirmed case of COVID-19. No drugs are going to be safe. Taking Tylenol which was recommended instead of Advil can also cause acute liver failure.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#188 » by PlayerUp » Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:45 am

Dresden wrote:One reason we are so short on N95 masks- the technology in them is a lot more advanced than you might think:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/key-material-behind-shortage-n95-203932905.html


I have a batch of these. They're quite good. Easy to breath in them as well.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#189 » by PlayerUp » Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:49 am

TallDude wrote:Uh.. your are just getting started this virus. Now it is up to Trump and also every invidiual. I trust more invidial than mr. Trump. After trump personally want that Europe take a step back. We don`t need him. Russia is too weak for Europea Military and economy also. Italy have same size of economy as Russia. So not much. Our economic will be strong anyway in Europea. Atleast northern europea. Promlem is Italy, Spain and Greece mostly. It has always been like that. After Trump is gone i like to take step forward. Happy to give Spain Etc. money if they start doing job/s and not just benefit North. There can not be resteraunt every corner???


Downright painful to read what you just wrote. Seems you have alot of hate for everyone.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#190 » by robert76 » Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:46 am

PlayerUp wrote:
robert76 wrote:"France reported 43 cases of heart incidents linked to treating coronavirus patients with hydroxychloroquine, the malaria drug President Donald Trump has repeatedly touted as a potential “game changer.”"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-10/france-reports-heart-incidents-linked-to-drug-promoted-by-trump


Which is why you should only take it if you have a confirmed case of COVID-19. No drugs are going to be safe. Taking Tylenol which was recommended instead of Advil can also cause acute liver failure.


No, this is exactly why you shouldn't take it especially if you have the virus! It's an unproven treatment, and its side effects are heart issues.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#191 » by bledredwine » Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:55 am

PlayerUp wrote:
TallDude wrote:Uh.. your are just getting started this virus. Now it is up to Trump and also every invidiual. I trust more invidial than mr. Trump. After trump personally want that Europe take a step back. We don`t need him. Russia is too weak for Europea Military and economy also. Italy have same size of economy as Russia. So not much. Our economic will be strong anyway in Europea. Atleast northern europea. Promlem is Italy, Spain and Greece mostly. It has always been like that. After Trump is gone i like to take step forward. Happy to give Spain Etc. money if they start doing job/s and not just benefit North. There can not be resteraunt every corner???


Downright painful to read what you just wrote. Seems you have alot of hate for everyone.


Was that comment necessary?

Let’s practice respect instead of hurling empty insults. I’m going to guess you’re a Trump fan, hence the guttural reaction with no substance contributing to the topic. You’ve done this more than once now and it’s not a good look.
:o LeBron is 0-7 in game winning/tying FGs in the finals. And is 20/116 or 17% in game winning/tying FGs in the 4th/OT for his career. That's historically bad :o
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#192 » by wolffy » Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:01 pm



A couple minutes in Gupta explains an issue with the drug supressing the bodys immune system.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#193 » by PlayerUp » Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:54 pm

bledredwine wrote:Let’s practice respect instead of hurling empty insults. I’m going to guess you’re a Trump fan, hence the guttural reaction with no substance contributing to the topic. You’ve done this more than once now and it’s not a good look.


I'm a leaning libertian. Anti federal government. Federal government who has put the country $23t in debt, constantly fighting, and manipulates their voters on both sides.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#194 » by PlayerUp » Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:10 pm

robert76 wrote:No, this is exactly why you shouldn't take it especially if you have the virus! It's an unproven treatment, and its side effects are heart issues.


There is never going to be a 100% safe treatment available for COVID-19 unless it's organic or natural substance. No matter what you take vaccine or medication in the future, it could cause problems.

For me, the medication recommended I would personally take it if I had COVID-19 and badly need it. COVID-19 is serious and if you're suffering with it then you really have no choice much like if you have cancer you have no choice but to get chemo which can also kill you. Of course, unless you have advanced stages of COVID-19, you should obviously reconsider or do your research before taking any medications or future vaccines.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#195 » by wolffy » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:51 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
robert76 wrote:No, this is exactly why you shouldn't take it especially if you have the virus! It's an unproven treatment, and its side effects are heart issues.


There is never going to be a 100% safe treatment available for COVID-19 unless it's organic or natural substance. No matter what you take vaccine or medication in the future, it could cause problems.

For me, the medication recommended I would personally take it if I had COVID-19 and badly need it. COVID-19 is serious and if you're suffering with it then you really have no choice much like if you have cancer you have no choice but to get chemo which can also kill you. Of course, unless you have advanced stages of COVID-19, you should obviously reconsider or do your research before taking any medications or future vaccines.


On one hand ur saying if you have no choice and are going to pass anyway you might as well try the drug. I guess you cant argue that. On the other hand your comparing it to chemo. Chemo is known treatment for cancer but you cant say hydroxychloroquine is a known treatment for covid-19.

Its a possible treatment. It may be beneficial in some cases. And it should be described as such. More research is needed so that in a few years we arent having a rash of deaths from some kind of heart damage or whatever. In the present time side effects are real and we need to act accordingly and not subject people to them for a hail mary that may, in addition to having no effect on the virus, actually do serious damage.

So my point is, in short, if someone is going to pass anyway, i guess a hail mary cant hurt. Bit as a treatment we need to be sure it helps more than it hurts.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#196 » by EazyAsPie » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:46 pm

bledredwine wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
TallDude wrote:Uh.. your are just getting started this virus. Now it is up to Trump and also every invidiual. I trust more invidial than mr. Trump. After trump personally want that Europe take a step back. We don`t need him. Russia is too weak for Europea Military and economy also. Italy have same size of economy as Russia. So not much. Our economic will be strong anyway in Europea. Atleast northern europea. Promlem is Italy, Spain and Greece mostly. It has always been like that. After Trump is gone i like to take step forward. Happy to give Spain Etc. money if they start doing job/s and not just benefit North. There can not be resteraunt every corner???


Downright painful to read what you just wrote. Seems you have alot of hate for everyone.


Was that comment necessary?

Let’s practice respect instead of hurling empty insults. I’m going to guess you’re a Trump fan, hence the guttural reaction with no substance contributing to the topic. You’ve done this more than once now and it’s not a good look.


Lol the irony. A person getting told by a liberal that he must be a Trump fan because he brings no substance to the topic while at the same time bringing exactly zero substance to the topic. #theperfectexampleofalib :lol:
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#197 » by Dresden » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:53 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
robert76 wrote:"France reported 43 cases of heart incidents linked to treating coronavirus patients with hydroxychloroquine, the malaria drug President Donald Trump has repeatedly touted as a potential “game changer.”"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-10/france-reports-heart-incidents-linked-to-drug-promoted-by-trump


Which is why you should only take it if you have a confirmed case of COVID-19. No drugs are going to be safe. Taking Tylenol which was recommended instead of Advil can also cause acute liver failure.


Yeah, and you can overdose from drinking too much water, too. But let's not conflate all risks as being equal. Tylenol is deemed generally safe for everyday use and millions of doses of it are taken each year. The incidence of liver failure is extremely low. Not so with the side effects of this malaria drug. We've already seen a couple of cases of fatal overdoses of it from people self medicating with it.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#198 » by Dresden » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:57 pm

I'm also just curious from a philosophical perspective, isn't a pandemic like this a good argument for why we sometimes NEED a strong federal govt. response, and why we need to fund things like the CDC, and why we need to have things like federal (or state) stockpiles of medical supplies? By the way, I'm not against many libertarian ideas- the amount of money our govt. spends on the military is just absolutely insane in my opinion- but I would think pandemics offer a strong counter argument to the idea that govt. should be as small as possible.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#199 » by musiqsoulchild » Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:31 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
robert76 wrote:"France reported 43 cases of heart incidents linked to treating coronavirus patients with hydroxychloroquine, the malaria drug President Donald Trump has repeatedly touted as a potential “game changer.”"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-10/france-reports-heart-incidents-linked-to-drug-promoted-by-trump


Which is why you should only take it if you have a confirmed case of COVID-19. No drugs are going to be safe. Taking Tylenol which was recommended instead of Advil can also cause acute liver failure.


Player, that is such a false comparison.

Any Quinone based drug is extremely potent. It is not anywhere close to the ballpark of Tylenol.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#200 » by Mech Engineer » Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:37 pm

Dresden wrote:I'm also just curious from a philosophical perspective, isn't a pandemic like this a good argument for why we sometimes NEED a strong federal govt. response, and why we need to fund things like the CDC, and why we need to have things like federal (or state) stockpiles of medical supplies? By the way, I'm not against many libertarian ideas- the amount of money our govt. spends on the military is just absolutely insane in my opinion- but I would think pandemics offer a strong counter argument to the idea that govt. should be as small as possible.


Everything cannot be solved by small government. The idea of small government is appealing but it is not working as it should. A lot of humans are not wired for that and I feel Millennials and Gen Z are worse. We will have more disasters like this.

The small government ideas have to be kept alive though and we need to gradually move towards them. If you have big organizations, then you have something like WHO who got bloated and ineffective.

There is no perfect answer.

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