Duncan vs. Kobe: Revisited

[LA Bird]

Timmy is boring we don’t rock his jersey or play as him in nba2k that’s a L right there. I ain’t taking no Ls, I’m too successful! Yup thanks to that mamba mentality! Yeah

I thought this was a troll impersonating and making fun of Kobe stans but the guy is actually serious. LOL.

[LakerLegend]

If you guys want to argue Duncan is easier to build around, has more defensive impact etc. go right ahead but don’t try to argue that he played evenly with Kobe in head to head playoff matchups. That’s just factually incorrect and disingenuous and reeks of grasping for straws.

So I gave in and did the game-level BPM research on them, because otherwise we're basically just saying that Kobe's teams > Duncan's teams. Which is . . . something, but not really what we're talking about.

And obviously, BPM is hardly perfect, but it's better than nothing.

Here are the two players' BPM breakdowns from their six playoff meetings ('99-08):

1999: Duncan +6.1, Kobe +2.3
2001: Kobe +12.1, Duncan +6.8
2002: Duncan +10.5, Kobe +5.0
2003: Duncan +9.0, Kobe +3.0
2004: Kobe +7.3, Duncan + 4.5
2008: Kobe +10.1, Duncan +7.5

In terms of series that's a 3-3 split. But in overall average it's:

Duncan +7.4, Kobe +6.5

Here's how their series rank all together:

1. 2001 Kobe
2. 2002 Duncan
3. 2008 Kobe
4. 2003 Duncan
5. 2008 Duncan
6. 2004 Kobe
7. 2001 Duncan
8. 1999 Duncan
9. 2002 Kobe
10. 2004 Duncan
11. 2003 Kobe
12. 1999 Kobe

Kobe has the best series, and the best game (Game 4, 2004), but Duncan had fewer weak series and averages a higher BPM overall.

And let's not forget that BPM tends to underrate Duncan by a few points.

I'm hardly saying that this is dispositive, but it's certainly at least as persuasive as judging Kobe vs Duncan by looking at Kobe's team vs Duncan's team.

Keep a few things in mind as I’ve mentioned multiple times: in 1999 Kobe was only 20 years old and on a dysfunctional team Kobe is younger than Duncan. In 2003 Kobe was playing with an injured shoulder that he injured on the windmill dunk against Minnesota in the previous round, and finally
in 2004 Kobe’s conditioning, stamina, and athleticism were subpar because he had offseason knee and shoulder surgeries the summer before and never got to fully rehab due to Colorado. He was actually taking IVs during the playoffs otherwise he would have dominated even more.

[LakerLegend]

If you guys want to argue Duncan is easier to build around, has more defensive impact etc. go right ahead but don’t try to argue that he played evenly with Kobe in head to head playoff matchups. That’s just factually incorrect and disingenuous and reeks of grasping for straws.

I didn't argue Duncan played evenly with Kobe, I was arguing Duncan played clearly better. At least get your accusations straight. You also just posted an interview of Shaq praising Kobe as "proof" that Kobe was better than Duncan and you say others are grasping at straws? It almost seems like there is some sort of Kobe cult as there is no other player, not even MJ or LeBron, who has fans who are so aggressively trying to frame their lofty opinions about him as facts.

The first sentence in your response gives even more reason not to take you seriously, and this whole post shows your bias talking about nonsense like cults

[Dutchball97]

If you guys want to argue Duncan is easier to build around, has more defensive impact etc. go right ahead but don’t try to argue that he played evenly with Kobe in head to head playoff matchups. That’s just factually incorrect and disingenuous and reeks of grasping for straws.

I didn't argue Duncan played evenly with Kobe, I was arguing Duncan played clearly better. At least get your accusations straight. You also just posted an interview of Shaq praising Kobe as "proof" that Kobe was better than Duncan and you say others are grasping at straws? It almost seems like there is some sort of Kobe cult as there is no other player, not even MJ or LeBron, who has fans who are so aggressively trying to frame their lofty opinions about him as facts.

The first sentence in your response gives even more reason not to take you seriously, and this whole post shows your bias talking about nonsense like cults

Then don't take me seriously and keep living in your Kobe dominated bubble. I'm just surprised you don't see the irony in calling others biased when you have Laker in your username and then go around claiming Kobe was "factually" better than Duncan without presenting any of those "facts".

[Strepbacter]

If you guys want to argue Duncan is easier to build around, has more defensive impact etc. go right ahead but don’t try to argue that he played evenly with Kobe in head to head playoff matchups. That’s just factually incorrect and disingenuous and reeks of grasping for straws.

So I gave in and did the game-level BPM research on them, because otherwise we're basically just saying that Kobe's teams > Duncan's teams. Which is . . . something, but not really what we're talking about.

And obviously, BPM is hardly perfect, but it's better than nothing.

Here are the two players' BPM breakdowns from their six playoff meetings ('99-08):

1999: Duncan +6.1, Kobe +2.3
2001: Kobe +12.1, Duncan +6.8
2002: Duncan +10.5, Kobe +5.0
2003: Duncan +9.0, Kobe +3.0
2004: Kobe +7.3, Duncan + 4.5
2008: Kobe +10.1, Duncan +7.5

In terms of series that's a 3-3 split. But in overall average it's:

Duncan +7.4, Kobe +6.5

Here's how their series rank all together:

1. 2001 Kobe
2. 2002 Duncan
3. 2008 Kobe
4. 2003 Duncan
5. 2008 Duncan
6. 2004 Kobe
7. 2001 Duncan
8. 1999 Duncan
9. 2002 Kobe
10. 2004 Duncan
11. 2003 Kobe
12. 1999 Kobe

Kobe has the best series, and the best game (Game 4, 2004), but Duncan had fewer weak series and averages a higher BPM overall.

And let's not forget that BPM tends to underrate Duncan by a few points.

I'm hardly saying that this is dispositive, but it's certainly at least as persuasive as judging Kobe vs Duncan by looking at Kobe's team vs Duncan's team.

I think the numbers match the eye-test and this all feels correct. Whether you're Team Timmy or Team Mamba, I think we can all agree that Kobe had more variance than Duncan for better and worse. Duncan was Mr. Dependable. He could have weak scoring performances but the defense was always the backbone of his impact. Kobe's style produced all kinds of epic performances, mostly good, sometimes a big stinker if the shot was really off. I don't think it's controversial to say that Kobe is more likely to go for 40 points, but also that Kobe is more likely to have a 8-24 ( ) shooting night.

Except Kobe was just as efficient a scorer and crushes him as a passer and playmaker. He was just as "dependable" as Dunkedon. Nice try tho.

[sansterre]

So I gave in and did the game-level BPM research on them, because otherwise we're basically just saying that Kobe's teams > Duncan's teams. Which is . . . something, but not really what we're talking about.

And obviously, BPM is hardly perfect, but it's better than nothing.

Here are the two players' BPM breakdowns from their six playoff meetings ('99-08):

1999: Duncan +6.1, Kobe +2.3
2001: Kobe +12.1, Duncan +6.8
2002: Duncan +10.5, Kobe +5.0
2003: Duncan +9.0, Kobe +3.0
2004: Kobe +7.3, Duncan + 4.5
2008: Kobe +10.1, Duncan +7.5

In terms of series that's a 3-3 split. But in overall average it's:

Duncan +7.4, Kobe +6.5

Here's how their series rank all together:

1. 2001 Kobe
2. 2002 Duncan
3. 2008 Kobe
4. 2003 Duncan
5. 2008 Duncan
6. 2004 Kobe
7. 2001 Duncan
8. 1999 Duncan
9. 2002 Kobe
10. 2004 Duncan
11. 2003 Kobe
12. 1999 Kobe

Kobe has the best series, and the best game (Game 4, 2004), but Duncan had fewer weak series and averages a higher BPM overall.

And let's not forget that BPM tends to underrate Duncan by a few points.

I'm hardly saying that this is dispositive, but it's certainly at least as persuasive as judging Kobe vs Duncan by looking at Kobe's team vs Duncan's team.

I think the numbers match the eye-test and this all feels correct. Whether you're Team Timmy or Team Mamba, I think we can all agree that Kobe had more variance than Duncan for better and worse. Duncan was Mr. Dependable. He could have weak scoring performances but the defense was always the backbone of his impact. Kobe's style produced all kinds of epic performances, mostly good, sometimes a big stinker if the shot was really off. I don't think it's controversial to say that Kobe is more likely to go for 40 points, but also that Kobe is more likely to have a 8-24 ( ) shooting night.

Except Kobe was just as efficient a scorer and crushes him as a passer and playmaker. He was just as "dependable" as Dunkedon. Nice try tho.

Wasn't really "trying". It's just data.

Even if we stipulated that Kobe was a better scorer and playmaker, that kind of leaves out rebounding and defense. At which Duncan was pretty obviously better.

[Strepbacter]

If you guys want to argue Duncan is easier to build around, has more defensive impact etc. go right ahead but don’t try to argue that he played evenly with Kobe in head to head playoff matchups. That’s just factually incorrect and disingenuous and reeks of grasping for straws.

So I gave in and did the game-level BPM research on them, because otherwise we're basically just saying that Kobe's teams > Duncan's teams. Which is . . . something, but not really what we're talking about.



And let's not forget that BPM tends to underrate Duncan by a few points.

Yeah, because it doesn't underrate Bryant. Good try tho.

[sansterre]

If you guys want to argue Duncan is easier to build around, has more defensive impact etc. go right ahead but don’t try to argue that he played evenly with Kobe in head to head playoff matchups. That’s just factually incorrect and disingenuous and reeks of grasping for straws.

So I gave in and did the game-level BPM research on them, because otherwise we're basically just saying that Kobe's teams > Duncan's teams. Which is . . . something, but not really what we're talking about.



And let's not forget that BPM tends to underrate Duncan by a few points.

Yeah, because it doesn't underrate Bryant. Good try tho.

Dude, if you can show substantive data that it underrates Kobe by as much as Duncan I would be very interested in seeing it.

And that's not being sarcastic; that would be excellent information to have.

[Matt15]

I get why people take Duncan over Kobe I think he has a good argument over him. But to say he is on some other level and it’s not even close I believe is just inaccurate. Especially considering that their primes coincided and their teams matched up with Kobe being the best player on the court multiple times.

[Dutchball97]

So I gave in and did the game-level BPM research on them, because otherwise we're basically just saying that Kobe's teams > Duncan's teams. Which is . . . something, but not really what we're talking about.



And let's not forget that BPM tends to underrate Duncan by a few points.

Yeah, because it doesn't underrate Bryant. Good try tho.

Dude, if you can show substantive data that it underrates Kobe by as much as Duncan I would be very interested in seeing it.

And that's not being sarcastic; that would be excellent information to have.

He isn't interested in hearing about how BPM is unable to properly rate defense and because of that underrates a defensive minded center like Duncan. He just wants to hear Kobe good and call it a day.

We really need a Kobe board or at least a big Kobe thread where all the "objective" Laker fans can come together and talk about how much we underrate Kobe's mamba mentality.

[Strepbacter]

Yeah, because it doesn't underrate Bryant. Good try tho.

Dude, if you can show substantive data that it underrates Kobe by as much as Duncan I would be very interested in seeing it.

And that's not being sarcastic; that would be excellent information to have.

He isn't interested in hearing about how BPM is unable to properly rate defense and because of that underrates a defensive minded center like Duncan. He just wants to hear Kobe good and call it a day.

You got all that from somebody simply pointing out that BPM also underrates Bryant? Go take a chill pill.

[Dutchball97]

Dude, if you can show substantive data that it underrates Kobe by as much as Duncan I would be very interested in seeing it.

And that's not being sarcastic; that would be excellent information to have.

He isn't interested in hearing about how BPM is unable to properly rate defense and because of that underrates a defensive minded center like Duncan. He just wants to hear Kobe good and call it a day.

You got all that from somebody simply pointing out that BPM also underrates Bryant? Go take a chill pill.

You never mentioned how it underrates Kobe. You know why? Because it doesn't. Good try though.

[HairyGOATee]

Damn, this thread is still going HAM.

[LakerLegend]

I get why people take Duncan over Kobe I think he has a good argument over him. But to say he is on some other level and it’s not even close I believe is just inaccurate. Especially considering that their primes coincided and their teams matched up with Kobe being the best player on the court multiple times.

It’s pretty hilarious how irrationally biased against Kobe this board has become.

[Masigond]

I get why people take Duncan over Kobe I think he has a good argument over him. But to say he is on some other level and it’s not even close I believe is just inaccurate. Especially considering that their primes coincided and their teams matched up with Kobe being the best player on the court multiple times.

It’s pretty hilarious how irrationally biased against Kobe this board has become.

The reason might be Kobe stans' arguments like how many fans wear his jersey or a head-to-head record like if NBA basketball were strictly one-on-one games.

I think that Duncan is the better NBA player than Kobe because he had more effect on his teammates. Especially on defense where he was always the fallback if his teammates failed to defend an opponent trying to slash to the basket (thus enabling them to play riskier defense) while Kobe as a guard had more limited effect on defense. And I can't forget that Kobe shot his team out of contention in some games. Furthermore I doubt his intelligence concerning team play.

‘Look, you guys as my teammates, yell at me. Let me know that you’re open because I’m so programmed,’” Jamison told ESPN LA radio. “And this guy has told me this. ‘I see nothing but that basket. You could be open. It could be three guys on me. But the only thing I see is that basket. So, you have to tell me, Look, I was open. Or yell at me in mid-play.’

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2013/03/21/kobe-bryant-tells-his-teammates-not-to-expect-passes-from-him-unless-they-demand-the-ball/
An all-time great who routinely makes worse decisions? What made guys like Bird and Magic so great? Bird might have been a superb shooter, and both were very versatile and could pass like almost no other. But their biggest asset was decision making. They knew how to stage a play in order to make the game easier for their teammates. Kobe didn't have that instinct (while I think that Duncan had it. At least he knew when to let his teammates shine).

So while I would choose Kobe as one of the first players when I would need a single guy to overcome a 30 point deficit with only two quarters left to play (or while I would choose him for a one-on-one duel), I prefer other more team oriented guys for my NBA team, and I only care for success on the court in the NBA.

[LakerLegend]

I get why people take Duncan over Kobe I think he has a good argument over him. But to say he is on some other level and it’s not even close I believe is just inaccurate. Especially considering that their primes coincided and their teams matched up with Kobe being the best player on the court multiple times.

It’s pretty hilarious how irrationally biased against Kobe this board has become.

The reason might be Kobe stans' arguments like how many fans wear his jersey or a head-to-head record like if NBA basketball were strictly one-on-one games.

I think that Duncan is the better NBA player than Kobe because he had more effect on his teammates. Especially on defense where he was always the fallback if his teammates failed to defend an opponent trying to slash to the basket (thus enabling them to play riskier defense) while Kobe as a guard had more limited effect on defense. And I can't forget that Kobe shot his team out of contention in some games. Furthermore I doubt his intelligence concerning team play.

‘Look, you guys as my teammates, yell at me. Let me know that you’re open because I’m so programmed,’” Jamison told ESPN LA radio. “And this guy has told me this. ‘I see nothing but that basket. You could be open. It could be three guys on me. But the only thing I see is that basket. So, you have to tell me, Look, I was open. Or yell at me in mid-play.’

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2013/03/21/kobe-bryant-tells-his-teammates-not-to-expect-passes-from-him-unless-they-demand-the-ball/
An all-time great who routinely makes worse decisions? What made guys like Bird and Magic so great? Bird might have been a superb shooter, and both were very versatile and could pass like almost no other. But their biggest asset was decision making. They knew how to stage a play in order to make the game easier for their teammates. Kobe didn't have that instinct (while I think that Duncan had it. At least he knew when to let his teammates shine).

So while I would choose Kobe as one of the first players when I would need a single guy to overcome a 30 point deficit with only two quarters left to play (or while I would choose him for a one-on-one duel), I prefer other more team oriented guys for my NBA team, and I only care for success on the court in the NBA.

What’s funny about that at is that many all time greats with high iqs have said almost the exact same things like Oscar Robertson, bird, and Jordan. It’s this built in bias that some people have that keeps them singling out Kobe for things.

[Masigond]

What’s funny about that at is that many all time greats with high iqs have said almost the exact same things like Oscar Robertson, bird, and Jordan. It’s this built in bias that some people have that keeps them singling out Kobe for things.

Bias or not, I regard Jordan somewhat the same way, but he did adapt a lot in comparison to his first years in the league. I haven't seen enough of Oscar to judge if it could be true or not, but with Bird I think it's nonsense. How often could you see him doing the extra-pass despite being in an OK position to score himself? A lot. The whole Celtics offense thing was his teammates always expecting to get the ball. Kobe's teammates could very often be seen just standing around, watching him do his thing (yes, often in awe), not expecting to be involved.

[LakerLegend]

What’s funny about that at is that many all time greats with high iqs have said almost the exact same things like Oscar Robertson, bird, and Jordan. It’s this built in bias that some people have that keeps them singling out Kobe for things.

Bias or not, I regard Jordan somewhat the same way, but he did adapt a lot in comparison to his first years in the league. I haven't seen enough of Oscar to judge if it could be true or not, but with Bird I think it's nonsense. How often could you see him doing the extra-pass despite being in an OK position to score himself? A lot. The whole Celtics offense thing was his teammates always expecting to get the ball. Kobe's teammates could very often be seen just standing around, watching him do his thing (yes, often in awe), not expecting to be involved.

The fact that your trying to portray one of the most widely accomplished and successful basketball players ever, who won 5 titles and went to 7 finals as a low iq player who didn’t know how to play team ball just reiterates my point about these built in biases some of you have.

[Masigond]

The fact that your trying to portray one of the most widely accomplished and successful basketball players ever, who won 5 titles and went to 7 finals as a low iq player who didn’t know how to play team ball just reiterates my point about these built in biases some of you have.

So team success makes him immune from critique of his weaknesses? Talk about bias...

At least I'm trying to explain my arguments why I think one player is better than the other based on my observations of their role for the whole team. And as I already explained: I only care about a player's impact on his team's ability to win. Kobe is no slouch, but I think there are better players than him, e.g. Duncan.

[LakerLegend]

The fact that your trying to portray one of the most widely accomplished and successful basketball players ever, who won 5 titles and went to 7 finals as a low iq player who didn’t know how to play team ball just reiterates my point about these built in biases some of you have.

So team success makes him immune from critique of his weaknesses? Talk about bias...

At least I'm trying to explain my arguments why I think one player is better than the other based on my observations of their role for the whole team. And as I already explained: I only care about a player's impact on his team's ability to win. Kobe is no slouch, but I think there are better players than him, e.g. Duncan.

No one said he’s immune to that criticism, but we need context and we balance strengths and weaknesses. If he’s saying that to pau gasol it’s one thing, if he’s saying it to smush Parker it’s another. We haven’t seen one thing mentioned about Duncan’s poor free throw shooting in this thread and it’s presence as a major liability.