As a Scoring Point Guard, Steph Has No Serious Rival

[clyde21]

this chart ends the debate, not sure what else is there to discuss...it should be updated for Steph's 20-21 season too up in that right hand corner



the league has NEVER seen this level of efficiency and volume (and at that range, too). it's a completely outlier. anyone pretending otherwise is living in la la land.

[dhsilv2]

I do agree that Steph is arguably the most dominant offensive player in NBA history.

Pure shooter - best ever
Off-ball shooter - best over
Moving without the ball - best ever
Shooting off screens - best ever
Release - arguably quickest ever
Making difficult shots - one of the best ever
Handles - one of the best ever
Floater - one of the best ever
IQ/Vision - one of the best ever

The only category he's not elite is as a post-up player, but he's so dominant as a shooter it doesn't matter.

Curry has an insane motor, he's incredible with and without the ball, he puts an enormous pressure on an opposing defense at all times.

Facts are facts. In 2015 and 2016 Curry was a cheat code that almost single handedly reduced the impact of the traditional slow big man. If you were a team that tried to guard him with a slow big he would torch your team and the game was over by the 3rd quarter.

Not saying I disagree with any of this but the thread is about the best scoring point guard. James Harden has him beat in that category, when it comes to pure scoring.

Harden is in the conversation for sure. I give Steph a slight nod because he's more efficient and much better moving without the ball.

Harden is much better in isolation.

Curry imo is better because he can warp a defense with that off ball stuff and that's just game changing beyond what most people grasp, but if the goal is volume scoring. Give me Harden in iso, he's just other worldly.

[Beethoven]

Steph Curry has no serious rival and there won't ever be another like him. I really hope this dude comes to the Lakers eventually and retires there and win another championship perhaps.

[70sFan]

At this level every critical match-up we will be talking about will be involving Hall of Famers against Hall of Famers. That's almost a given. But the results still indicate something and are support for an argument

Playing against HoFers doesn't necessary make scoring harder. Scoring against Damian Lillard is much easier than against Marcus Smart and we know which one will make the HoF.

West was 26. Steph was 24 and still improving. Both West and Steph reached the second round of the playoffs that year where they lost.

We're talking about their scoring, not when they finished. You implied that West played with superstars, but he didn't in 1965 and he scored as well as usual.

Besides, West went to the finals, it's not comparable to 2nd round exit in 2013.

Curry is galaxies ahead of West as a playmaker and it's possible he's already won more in the postseason despite playing less seasons and his career not yet being over and West's 9 finals appearances.

No, Curry isn't galaxies ahead of West as a playmaker. Basketball was much different back in the 1960s and one players didn't have the same possibility of creating shots without spacing and with stricter rules.

Why don't you provide a source? They don't match the numbers I've seen. The discrepancy with the PPG is negligible so I won't quibble more with it further but the rTS% doesn't compute on my end.

These are rORtg, what are you talking about rTS%?

My source is from backpicks, a stats database created by Ben Taylor which you use so much.

[D.Brasco]

Can we just call him the shooting guard he is, even if it means he isnt top 3 all time at his position?

And i still have him leading Dame and Kyrie who, just like him, are more shooting guard than point. Id still rather have those two in the final 2 mins of a playoff game thought.

why would we call him something he's not? he's not a shooting guard. he's a PG that plays off ball half the time because he's also happens to be an elite off-ball player...if anything he's a combo guard, but he's not a SG

and he would actually be ranked as just as high on the SG list as he would on the PG list...so, yea.

He could very well be described as combo guard, however I feel if he were 6'5 or 6'6" instead of 6'3" and played the same way people would view him as a SG.

LeBron arguably plays as much on ball if not more than Steph but he's never viewed as a true PG.

I don't view Steph as a pure PG but combo guard is fine like how some players are Point forwards and and are listed as SF.

[WarriorGM]

At this level every critical match-up we will be talking about will be involving Hall of Famers against Hall of Famers. That's almost a given. But the results still indicate something and are support for an argument

Playing against HoFers doesn't necessary make scoring harder. Scoring against Damian Lillard is much easier than against Marcus Smart and we know which one will make the HoF.

But Lillard will make you pay on the other end. I wasn't planning on bringing this up but since this came up earlier this does explain why the lack of a prolific scorer on the opposing team might disadvantage them.

West was 26. Steph was 24 and still improving. Both West and Steph reached the second round of the playoffs that year where they lost.

We're talking about their scoring, not when they finished. You implied that West played with superstars, but he didn't in 1965 and he scored as well as usual.

Besides, West went to the finals, it's not comparable to 2nd round exit in 2013.

As I said to DCasey91 given the title of this thread I'm taking a holistic view of a scoring point guard, so their scoring plus their other point guard attributes. Where they finish gives an indication about how effective their whole game is.

Regarding West not playing with superstars in 1965, as I understand it that's not entirely true. West didn't play with Baylor in the playoffs but he did during the regular season. By finishing first in their conference in the regular season West avoided the first round and got a bye. That's not an insignificant thing.

Furthermore I'd say the difference between West going to the finals (which was the second round he played) isn't more impressive compared to what Curry did. West and the Lakers in the first round they played defeated the Baltimore Bullets a team with a 37-43 losing record during the regular season. Curry and the Warriors for comparison knocked out the Denver Nuggets who had a 57-25 record, 4th best in the entire league. West in the next round, the finals, lost to the Celtics 4-1. Curry and the Warriors were eliminated in 6 by the Spurs who were the finalists that year losing in 7 and champions the next year.

Curry is galaxies ahead of West as a playmaker and it's possible he's already won more in the postseason despite playing less seasons and his career not yet being over and West's 9 finals appearances.

No, Curry isn't galaxies ahead of West as a playmaker. Basketball was much different back in the 1960s and one players didn't have the same possibility of creating shots without spacing and with stricter rules.

Era differences again? Whatever.

Why don't you provide a source? They don't match the numbers I've seen. The discrepancy with the PPG is negligible so I won't quibble more with it further but the rTS% doesn't compute on my end.

These are rORtg, what are you talking about rTS%?

My source is from backpicks, a stats database created by Ben Taylor which you use so much.

I don't believe you mentioned rORtg before. You mentioned rTS%. Doesn't matter. I still don't get the number you provide if it is intended to be rORtg. Curry's ORtg? Relative to what ORtg? I've only browsed backpicks in the past and referred to a couple of charts that seemed illustrative. I haven't gone into the details of the metrics used or their calculations.

[Ambrose]

I give Steph credit, it's really good and he enables a unique type of dominance. But neither he nor KD have a 2006 DWade, 2016, 2018 LeBron, 1991-1993 MJ type of playoff run and that's sort of a differentiator. Curry should've won, and you put Harden on that team instead, they also easily win. I don't see it as some crazy accomplishment is all, especially since he failed or came close to failing when talent was on equal terms.

Curry's 2015, 2016, and 2019 runs when KD was out are comparable to any of the above and superior in some cases. I don't recall Wade, LeBron, or MJ eliminating the rest of the All-NBA First Team one right after another or eliminating the immediate previous and succeeding MVPs at the same time or disposing of his two greatest rivals at his position in a similar manner.

"Curry should've won" you say, what makes you say this? The 67-win seasons? Well of course Curry was the primary reason for those team win records. Is it his fault Wade, LeBron or even MJ didn't put up as winning a record in the regular seasons referenced?

As mentioned in the post above, Harden doesn't exactly have a history of showing up when the going gets really tough. Curry in contrast has led the Warriors back from double digits deficits at the half in both elimination games 6 and 7 in the Western Conference finals. Twice.

Your take in the post quoted is trash.

I've been following this thread and am increasingly pro-Curry. With that said, this is nonsense. He absolutely does not have a postseason run on that level yet. Not only are his less impressive statistically but Curry missed six games in 2016. It's not even comparable.

[70sFan]

I only posted rORtg in this thread, I didn't post rTS% even once. These ratings are relative to competition faced in playoffs, it's pretty simply adjustment.

I don't think this debate has any sense, you will never be convinced that there is someone even close to your superhero Curry. A shame that I usually have to defend other players against Curry stans, because I'm quite high on Curry as well.

[Doctor MJ]

Can we just call him the shooting guard he is, even if it means he isnt top 3 all time at his position?

Well it's moot because there aren't 3 shooting guards in the history of the game capable of scoring 30 PPG on 66% TS. If you don't count Curry, such a player has never existed.

I'd put Jordan ahead of Curry based on what Curry's shown so far. No one else is a threat.

That said, I'd agree to some degree with your point in that the best way to describe Curry when playing with a healthy team is that of an off-guard, which is often as a synonym for shooting guard.

[WarriorGM]

I give Steph credit, it's really good and he enables a unique type of dominance. But neither he nor KD have a 2006 DWade, 2016, 2018 LeBron, 1991-1993 MJ type of playoff run and that's sort of a differentiator. Curry should've won, and you put Harden on that team instead, they also easily win. I don't see it as some crazy accomplishment is all, especially since he failed or came close to failing when talent was on equal terms.

Curry's 2015, 2016, and 2019 runs when KD was out are comparable to any of the above and superior in some cases. I don't recall Wade, LeBron, or MJ eliminating the rest of the All-NBA First Team one right after another or eliminating the immediate previous and succeeding MVPs at the same time or disposing of his two greatest rivals at his position in a similar manner.

"Curry should've won" you say, what makes you say this? The 67-win seasons? Well of course Curry was the primary reason for those team win records. Is it his fault Wade, LeBron or even MJ didn't put up as winning a record in the regular seasons referenced?

As mentioned in the post above, Harden doesn't exactly have a history of showing up when the going gets really tough. Curry in contrast has led the Warriors back from double digits deficits at the half in both elimination games 6 and 7 in the Western Conference finals. Twice.

Your take in the post quoted is trash.

I've been following this thread and am increasingly pro-Curry. With that said, this is nonsense. He absolutely does not have a postseason run on that level yet. Not only are his less impressive statistically but Curry missed six games in 2016. It's not even comparable.

The results say otherwise. 2006 Wade ended up with a championship. So did Curry in 2015. Wade played with Shaq a top ten all-time player. Curry played with a roster none of whom had seen a finals before. Wade took out the team with the best record in the league. Curry led the team with the best record. Wade beat the guy who finished third in MVP voting. Steph was the MVP and sent the guy who finished second packing. The preseason odds for the 2006 Heat winning was +350. The preseason championship odds for the 2015 Warriors was +2800.

Wade eliminated the 41-win Bulls, the 49-win Nets, the 64-win Pistons and the 60-win Mavericks.
Curry eliminated the 45-win Pelicans, the 55-win Grizzlies, the 56-win Rockets and the 53-win Cavaliers. But no one was surprised in the least when those Cavaliers swept the 60-win Hawks in the ECF and fielded basically the same players against the Warriors.

What did Wade do that was so superior? Struggle mightily while monopolizing the ball to eek out wins and look dramatic doing so? Why should Curry be penalized for playing in a way that maximizes the talents of his teammates? Are there still people here who think Westbrook is better than Curry?

Curry's 2015 run is one of the most underrated runs in recent NBA history.

Don't even get me started on a comparison of 2019 Curry's and 2018 LeBron's playoffs runs.

[DCasey91]

I rate Curry as high as anyone but as scoring goes when the real thing happens (playoffs).

Lebron
Durant
Harden

And that just people playing right now. Heck even Luka from his gamestyle will score more points in the future.

As the subject thread suggests it’s disingenuous to say he has no peer.

Now pound for pound you probably have a strong argument.

But once again West being relative size/height is very comparable to Curry era for era, it’s not blasphemy to suggest there was a guard that was really efficient for his era and scored at big volume (more than Curry) his whole career it’s pretty obvious he was a big time scorer (for a jump shooter). Just. Like. Curry

[Warriors Analyst]

Can we just call him the shooting guard he is, even if it means he isnt top 3 all time at his position?

Well it's moot because there aren't 3 shooting guards in the history of the game capable of scoring 30 PPG on 66% TS. If you don't count Curry, such a player has never existed.

I'd put Jordan ahead of Curry based on what Curry's shown so far. No one else is a threat.

That said, I'd agree to some degree with your point in that the best way to describe Curry when playing with a healthy team is that of an off-guard, which is often as a synonym for shooting guard.

The thing that frustrates me about the insistence some people have about saying Steph isn't a true PG is that it often feels like a backhanded way to denigrate his playmaking ability. We have plenty of proof that Steph is a good playmaker. Pre-Kerr, he was averaging 8 assists a game in a far less creative offensive system with worse spacing than any lineups he played with up until this year. If you ask Steph to create for others, he absolutely can. It just so happens that he's the GOAT off-ball player and he's spent a significant amount of his career playing with Draymond, who is one of the better passing big men of his generation, so it would be dumb not to take advantage of those abilities.

[Doctor MJ]

Can we just call him the shooting guard he is, even if it means he isnt top 3 all time at his position?

Well it's moot because there aren't 3 shooting guards in the history of the game capable of scoring 30 PPG on 66% TS. If you don't count Curry, such a player has never existed.

I'd put Jordan ahead of Curry based on what Curry's shown so far. No one else is a threat.

That said, I'd agree to some degree with your point in that the best way to describe Curry when playing with a healthy team is that of an off-guard, which is often as a synonym for shooting guard.

The thing that frustrates me about the insistence some people have about saying Steph isn't a true PG is that it often feels like a backhanded way to denigrate his playmaking ability. We have plenty of proof that Steph is a good playmaker. Pre-Kerr, he was averaging 8 assists a game in a far less creative offensive system with worse spacing than any lineups he played with up until this year. If you ask Steph to create for others, he absolutely can. It just so happens that he's the GOAT off-ball player and he's spent a significant amount of his career playing with Draymond, who is one of the better passing big men of his generation, so it would be dumb not to take advantage of those abilities.

All true. The reality is that trying to divide guys by position in basketball is only worthwhile for a first pass metric.

The beauty of Curry is that he can play with any other player, and that player will benefit greatly from his presence, because Curry can choose a role different from the only one that other guy can play while having a huge impact.

[WarriorGM]

I don't think this debate has any sense, you will never be convinced that there is someone even close to your superhero Curry. A shame that I usually have to defend other players against Curry stans, because I'm quite high on Curry as well.

What players are you defending against Curry stans? Jerry West? What an esoteric choice to defend a player from so long ago comparisons cannot even be made in earnest because the rules were so different. I'm surprised you don't step in at every opportunity to proclaim Wilt's greatness over LeBron's or that he had nothing on Oscar Robertson.

I only posted rORtg in this thread, I didn't post rTS% even once. These ratings are relative to competition faced in playoffs, it's pretty simply adjustment.

Well what I saw was the following:

Yeah, how could West lost this series while averaging 38/5/7 on +7.5 rTS% against GOAT level defense...

At least West lost in his prime while averaging staggering numbers and leading excellent offenses, not like Curry in 2013 when he averaged 22.5 ppg on -1.9 rTS%...

[70sFan]

If you see only things you want to, then I see no reason to discuss with you. Bye

[clyde21]

I only posted rORtg in this thread, I didn't post rTS% even once. These ratings are relative to competition faced in playoffs, it's pretty simply adjustment.

I don't think this debate has any sense, you will never be convinced that there is someone even close to your superhero Curry. A shame that I usually have to defend other players against Curry stans, because I'm quite high on Curry as well.

ElGee makes a strong case for Steph as the GOAT offensive weapon, is he a Curry stan too?

[Ambrose]

Curry's 2015, 2016, and 2019 runs when KD was out are comparable to any of the above and superior in some cases. I don't recall Wade, LeBron, or MJ eliminating the rest of the All-NBA First Team one right after another or eliminating the immediate previous and succeeding MVPs at the same time or disposing of his two greatest rivals at his position in a similar manner.

"Curry should've won" you say, what makes you say this? The 67-win seasons? Well of course Curry was the primary reason for those team win records. Is it his fault Wade, LeBron or even MJ didn't put up as winning a record in the regular seasons referenced?

As mentioned in the post above, Harden doesn't exactly have a history of showing up when the going gets really tough. Curry in contrast has led the Warriors back from double digits deficits at the half in both elimination games 6 and 7 in the Western Conference finals. Twice.

Your take in the post quoted is trash.

I've been following this thread and am increasingly pro-Curry. With that said, this is nonsense. He absolutely does not have a postseason run on that level yet. Not only are his less impressive statistically but Curry missed six games in 2016. It's not even comparable.

The results say otherwise. 2006 Wade ended up with a championship. So did Curry in 2015. Wade played with Shaq a top ten all-time player. Curry played with a roster none of whom had seen a finals before. Wade took out the team with the best record in the league. Curry led the team with the best record. Wade beat the guy who finished third in MVP voting. Steph was the MVP and sent the guy who finished second packing. The preseason odds for the 2006 Heat winning was +350. The preseason championship odds for the 2015 Warriors was +2800.

Wade eliminated the 41-win Bulls, the 49-win Nets, the 64-win Pistons and the 60-win Mavericks.
Curry eliminated the 45-win Pelicans, the 55-win Grizzlies, the 56-win Rockets and the 53-win Cavaliers. But no one was surprised in the least when those Cavaliers swept the 60-win Hawks in the ECF and fielded basically the same players against the Warriors.

What did Wade do that was so superior? Struggle mightily while monopolizing the ball to eek out wins and look dramatic doing so? Why should Curry be penalized for playing in a way that maximizes the talents of his teammates? Are there still people here who think Westbrook is better than Curry?

Curry's 2015 run is one of the most underrated runs in recent NBA history.

Don't even get me started on a comparison of 2019 Curry's and 2018 LeBron's playoffs runs.

Isn't it obvious? He played better. No one is talking about how good each team was.

[WarriorGM]

I've been following this thread and am increasingly pro-Curry. With that said, this is nonsense. He absolutely does not have a postseason run on that level yet. Not only are his less impressive statistically but Curry missed six games in 2016. It's not even comparable.

The results say otherwise. 2006 Wade ended up with a championship. So did Curry in 2015. Wade played with Shaq a top ten all-time player. Curry played with a roster none of whom had seen a finals before. Wade took out the team with the best record in the league. Curry led the team with the best record. Wade beat the guy who finished third in MVP voting. Steph was the MVP and sent the guy who finished second packing. The preseason odds for the 2006 Heat winning was +350. The preseason championship odds for the 2015 Warriors was +2800.

Wade eliminated the 41-win Bulls, the 49-win Nets, the 64-win Pistons and the 60-win Mavericks.
Curry eliminated the 45-win Pelicans, the 55-win Grizzlies, the 56-win Rockets and the 53-win Cavaliers. But no one was surprised in the least when those Cavaliers swept the 60-win Hawks in the ECF and fielded basically the same players against the Warriors.

What did Wade do that was so superior? Struggle mightily while monopolizing the ball to eek out wins and look dramatic doing so? Why should Curry be penalized for playing in a way that maximizes the talents of his teammates? Are there still people here who think Westbrook is better than Curry?

Curry's 2015 run is one of the most underrated runs in recent NBA history.

Don't even get me started on a comparison of 2019 Curry's and 2018 LeBron's playoffs runs.

Isn't it obvious? He played better. No one is talking about how good each team was.

If the goal is to win as quickly and decisively as possible, no he didn't.

[70sFan]

I only posted rORtg in this thread, I didn't post rTS% even once. These ratings are relative to competition faced in playoffs, it's pretty simply adjustment.

I don't think this debate has any sense, you will never be convinced that there is someone even close to your superhero Curry. A shame that I usually have to defend other players against Curry stans, because I'm quite high on Curry as well.

ElGee makes a strong case for Steph as the GOAT offensive weapon, is he a Curry stan too?

No, but ElGee never said that Curry has unmatched impact or that guys like Magic/West/Oscar/Nash aren't even close to him offensively. There is a gigantic pool of opinions between "Curry is god" and "Curry sucks". I view Curry as one of the best offensive players ever, but I do think that someone like Magic is better than him for example.

[clyde21]

I only posted rORtg in this thread, I didn't post rTS% even once. These ratings are relative to competition faced in playoffs, it's pretty simply adjustment.

I don't think this debate has any sense, you will never be convinced that there is someone even close to your superhero Curry. A shame that I usually have to defend other players against Curry stans, because I'm quite high on Curry as well.

ElGee makes a strong case for Steph as the GOAT offensive weapon, is he a Curry stan too?

No, but ElGee never said that Curry has unmatched impact or that guys like Magic/West/Oscar/Nash aren't even close to him offensively. There is a gigantic pool of opinions between "Curry is god" and "Curry sucks". I view Curry as one of the best offensive players ever, but I do think that someone like Magic is better than him for example.

fair enough