Has it not become overwhelmingly clear (even to management) it's time to blow this up?

[Harold_and_Kumar]

Against my better judgement, I’m going to weigh into this thread.

A couple quick general comments:

1. Show me 1 single team that has won the chip using tanking as their primary building block.. just one… hint, they don’t exist.

2. Posters who are calling for Masais firing have put their stupidity on display for all to see. There really is no rebuttal worth replying with.

As for the what this thread is asking, should we ‘blow it up’? What does that even mean? We have 5 players worth talking about that fall into 3 tiers that I think most agree with:

Tier 1. Scotty, the one thing this bord agrees with is that we’re not trading Scotty.

Tier 2. Siakam / OG, most agree these guys should only be dealt for significant star like price tags, as such, that would be an off season trade, not mid season.

Tier 3. FVV / GTJ, most agree these are the 2 most likely to get dealt for varying reasons, and I don’t think any poster is losing sleep if they do…

so again, what does ‘blow it up’ mean? Trade Siakam / OG just for anything asap? Just because we’re impatient? Come on…

My 2 cents on what we should do:

I think Siakam / OG / Barnes is a solid SOLID core 3 that are all young enough to continue and grow together. As much as people say Siakam is ‘old’.. he’s going to be a top 20 player for the next 5 years, so he’s not falling off a cliff anytime soon. I would throw Precious and Koloko into that core 3 because of their age and defensive upside. I know the quick rebuttal is ‘if they’re so solid, why’s our record this?’..

It’s no secret what this team needs.. 1. A legit rim protecting C who boards and in an ideal world can hit an open 3 (Raps have been rumour linked to these player types for 3 years now).. and 2. An elite 3&D point guard can bury triples at a 40-45% clip, but doesn’t need to ball hawk. I think it’s important to note that PG & Cs are the 2 most important positions on D.. it’s your pickup point on the oppositions offence, and your last line of defence.. so it’s no wonder our D has been trash this year, despite having a lot of plus defenders on the wings. Fred’s getting blown by regularly, and we have zero rim protection. We just can’t win with our D faltering this badly. If we fix our PG / C spots, then this team looks a whole lot better even without adding a true star… I’m not saying championship level good, but second round+ good. I think the team can get to this level with some tweaking / reallocation of assets, FVV/GTJ/Boucher in particular.. and do so while still maintaining their draft capital for the true ‘level up’ trade down the rod, when the next big star becomes available, which (assuming PG/C is fixed) puts us back into championship contention.

As disappointing as this season has been, there is no need to overreact and ‘blow it up’.. trading away an all nba talent in Siakam.. trading away young stud talent in OG… firing Masai… as many have suggested in here. That’s just foolish.

On the surface your argument seems reasonable, but there's a major hole in it.

You make it seem easy to flip our middling assets into new assets that make us a conference finals team. Why do you think we've been rumoured for years to covet, but haven't acquired a rim protecting centre who shoots threes or a PG that shoots 40-45% from 3 and plays great on-ball defense? Turns out that these players are pretty valuable (read: commonly all-stars), don't get traded often, and would require an overpay.

So how do you expect us to acquire these pieces without trading Siakam, Scottie, or OG, Precious, or Koloko, and without selecting high in the draft or trading future picks? If there was a path to doing so, Masai would have.

While I trust Bobby/Masai to make the right moves moving forward, it's also fair to say they've had a poor couple of years (Scottie aside) and fans are rightly asking for roster change. It's reasonable to not see a clear direction with this team as it's currently constructed. We're trying to win now, riding our starters for 38 mins a night, and we're not even a play-in team! That's not normal. Also, the product we're watching is trash most nights - this team plays archaic basketball.

Where I agree is that I don't see a full teardown. We have some good assets, we just need to use them effectively to retool into a younger team with a higher ceiling of growth. In my eyes, that could mean we trade anyone minus Scottie for the best value in return. There's risk to tanking, but there's also risk to staying the course and hoping for another Kawhi to fall in your lap, and we're seeing it.

Im not here to absolve management of everything, but fact remains the raps had 2 of the worst years of luck post championship (bubble and Tampa), then finished top 5, and now here we are in one of our more disappointing seasons in recent history. It is what it is, but that sports man.

In terms of solving the PG/C problem, again, I dont know.. I dont whats out there or what they've looked at. My inclination is that they felt FVV was going to be better than this and a potential long term fit, now has this year changed their opinion? I dunno.. but FVV's porous perimeter defense and cold shooting is the exact opposite of what this team needs. I still think FVV has league wide value, so maybe there is a piece we can get with him via trade. As for C, Raps have long been connected with players that I think would be difference makers to this squad, specifically the core 3 I identified.. Claxton.. Jarret Allen... Poetle.. but we always see to be a day late or a dollar short. But they clearly see a flaw in roster construct and want to get a solution there, and personally, Im not going to be overly upset that they dont compound the issue by trying to make a long term commitment to a C solution that isnt the right fit. Im fine being patient and trust that they have some guys in mind to go after, and are essentially treading water till the right piece comes along. Regardless point is that I think / hope that we have enough asset value in the likes of FVV / GTJ / Boucher / Expirings to remedy atleast one of these 2 roster flaws, hopefully both. IF we do, then were right in the competitive mix again with enough draft capital in the war chest to improve further. Blowing it all up.. stripping the team to Scotty.. makes no sense to me.

If there was something out there they thought could fix the centre issue, they would have done it over the past three seasons. It's clear we want to win, so because they haven't solved the issue I have to assume that there's nothing at fair value to fix it, and/or philosophically they believe they don't need it to be competitive. Either way, it's not a good look for the FO.

I do agree that we'd be better with a serviceable C on the roster to hide some of our defensive weaknesses, and would likely make us better on the fast break (better defensive rebounding) and in the half court (better screen setting and rolling actions). I think where we disagree is that I don't think it makes us that much better. Also, if we trade Fred for a centre, we still need a PG who can shoot the 3 and play good on-ball defense, trade GTJ/Boucher for that PG, and our bench is now a mess. I just think we need more talent in general if we even want to talk about being a contender. I guess that's something that can happen over the next 3-5 years, but then we're talking about Pascal coming out of his prime and we have a new problem to manage.

FWIW, I don't want to strip it to just Scottie either. I think we need to keep one of OG or Siakam to maintain a level of competitiveness and continuity. For me, which one we keep depends on the return, which as you said we can't really know. The young talent/picks we receive raise our ceiling and potentially make it even easier to make a win-now move when the time comes.

[ontnut]

I predict that we will make a smaller move by the deadline, with follow up moves in the offseason.
Most likely:
Trade GTJ by the deadline.
Shopping guys like Boucher, Flynn etc., for 2nd rounders or lateral swaps for positions of need by the deadline.
S&T FVV if teams are interested in the offseason.
Retain OG unless someone gives 3 unprotected 1sts or similar.
Retain Siakam unless we get the Gobert/Mitchell package.
Predict more rest for Siakam/OG after the trades are made for another stealth tank into the offseason.

[dacrusha]

A disappointing season, 2 years into a 5-7 year program is no reason to blow it all up.

If you think this is the final form of where the Scottie pick takes us, then, yeah sure... but who realistically thinks this 5-7 year roster rebuild is done already and needs a full reset?

[anotherhomer]

i was surprised by the fire Ujiri crowd

is that ppl working on behalf of Ed Rogers, or BC burner accounts still?

On the surface your argument seems reasonable, but there's a major hole in it.

You make it seem easy to flip our middling assets into new assets that make us a conference finals team. Why do you think we've been rumoured for years to covet, but haven't acquired a rim protecting centre who shoots threes or a PG that shoots 40-45% from 3 and plays great on-ball defense? Turns out that these players are pretty valuable (read: commonly all-stars), don't get traded often, and would require an overpay.

So how do you expect us to acquire these pieces without trading Siakam, Scottie, or OG, Precious, or Koloko, and without selecting high in the draft or trading future picks? If there was a path to doing so, Masai would have.

While I trust Bobby/Masai to make the right moves moving forward, it's also fair to say they've had a poor couple of years (Scottie aside) and fans are rightly asking for roster change. It's reasonable to not see a clear direction with this team as it's currently constructed. We're trying to win now, riding our starters for 38 mins a night, and we're not even a play-in team! That's not normal. Also, the product we're watching is trash most nights - this team plays archaic basketball.

Where I agree is that I don't see a full teardown. We have some good assets, we just need to use them effectively to retool into a younger team with a higher ceiling of growth. In my eyes, that could mean we trade anyone minus Scottie for the best value in return. There's risk to tanking, but there's also risk to staying the course and hoping for another Kawhi to fall in your lap, and we're seeing it.

Im not here to absolve management of everything, but fact remains the raps had 2 of the worst years of luck post championship (bubble and Tampa), then finished top 5, and now here we are in one of our more disappointing seasons in recent history. It is what it is, but that sports man.

In terms of solving the PG/C problem, again, I dont know.. I dont whats out there or what they've looked at. My inclination is that they felt FVV was going to be better than this and a potential long term fit, now has this year changed their opinion? I dunno.. but FVV's porous perimeter defense and cold shooting is the exact opposite of what this team needs. I still think FVV has league wide value, so maybe there is a piece we can get with him via trade. As for C, Raps have long been connected with players that I think would be difference makers to this squad, specifically the core 3 I identified.. Claxton.. Jarret Allen... Poetle.. but we always see to be a day late or a dollar short. But they clearly see a flaw in roster construct and want to get a solution there, and personally, Im not going to be overly upset that they dont compound the issue by trying to make a long term commitment to a C solution that isnt the right fit. Im fine being patient and trust that they have some guys in mind to go after, and are essentially treading water till the right piece comes along. Regardless point is that I think / hope that we have enough asset value in the likes of FVV / GTJ / Boucher / Expirings to remedy atleast one of these 2 roster flaws, hopefully both. IF we do, then were right in the competitive mix again with enough draft capital in the war chest to improve further. Blowing it all up.. stripping the team to Scotty.. makes no sense to me.

If there was something out there they thought could fix the centre issue, they would have done it over the past three seasons. It's clear we want to win, so because they haven't solved the issue I have to assume that there's nothing at fair value to fix it, and/or philosophically they believe they don't need it to be competitive. Either way, it's not a good look for the FO.

I do agree that we'd be better with a serviceable C on the roster to hide some of our defensive weaknesses, and would likely make us better on the fast break (better defensive rebounding) and in the half court (better screen setting and rolling actions). I think where we disagree is that I don't think it makes us that much better. Also, if we trade Fred for a centre, we still need a PG who can shoot the 3 and play good on-ball defense, trade GTJ/Boucher for that PG, and our bench is now a mess. I just think we need more talent in general if we even want to talk about being a contender. I guess that's something that can happen over the next 3-5 years, but then we're talking about Pascal coming out of his prime and we have a new problem to manage.

FWIW, I don't want to strip it to just Scottie either. I think we need to keep one of OG or Siakam to maintain a level of competitiveness and continuity. For me, which one we keep depends on the return, which as you said we can't really know. The young talent/picks we receive raise our ceiling and potentially make it even easier to make a win-now move when the time comes.

[TGM]

Against my better judgement, I’m going to weigh into this thread.

A couple quick general comments:

1. Show me 1 single team that has won the chip using tanking as their primary building block.. just one… hint, they don’t exist.

Uh......
GSW let B.Davis go after they get 48win but still no playoff seasaon and get Curry at 7th, then after they get Klay at 11th and dump Monta Ellis to give the key to Curry

Don't let me say SAS get T.Duncan and Cavs get LBJ at 1st, both are the reason their team become competitve for long term

Face the fact,
talent matter in NBA,
that's why NBA players get paid bigger than other professional sport in US
the chance you want to get champion by a bunch of 2nd rounder and undraft player as your core are super rare.

I hope you appreciate the irony of your post, highlighting GSW and Spurs as 2 examples of teams that adopted Tanking as a viable strategy and it working out. In fact, they are the EXACT OPPOSITE of that, lol... they are 2 examples that show how Team Compete works, lol. 2 of the 3 great dynasties in our generation, neither of them tanked,

Start with GSW. They have always been compete compete compete.. the year they got Curry, they had Ellis, Crawford, Jackson, Maggette, Biedrins, Bellinelli... AKA, seasoned guys trying to make the make playoffs! they just weren't that good in a stacked west and finished 10th!! Or in other words 'the scary middle'.... How on gods green earth is that tanking? The year before that, they finished 9th.. the year before that they finished 8th, and infamously knocked of the MAvs in Round 1.. GSW has ALWAYS been about competing. Even the core 3 of their dynasty, outside of Curry at 7, none were drafted in the top 10?!?! Green was drafted in the second round for gods sake... sorry man, GSW does nothing but prove my point, not yours.

As for Spurs, again, another prime example of a team that did NOT tear down a single darn thing, and built a dynasty through competition and instilling a winning mindset. Spurs 95/96.. finish second in West with a team full of legit players.. Robinson, Elliot, Avery, Del Negro, Perdue... 96/97, Robinson goes down and their seasons goes down the toilet, yet they do NOT trade any of these guys.. they get Duncan. 97/98, Duncan joins a team that still has Elliot, Avery, Del NEgro, PErdue, of course Robinson, and they're back in the playoffs. They never say 'ah, we've got a new timeline with Duncan, lets go tell Duncan that were going to trade everyone for draft capital and tell him its ok to lose for a couple more years so we can tank, cause thats the only way we can get talent and surround him with a bunch of kids'... nope, it was the opposite, it was 'lets go!! lets get it!! lets compete!!!' The 2 remaining pillars of the Spurs / Duncan Dynasty, Parker and Ginobli, were acquired while competing, drafted 28th and 57th!!!

Man, some of ya'll posts are hilarious.. trying to turn 2 franchises who embody competition and winning, and trying to use them as
an example of teams that blew it up and embodied a tanking mentality? Magical stuff, really.

And not once did I say we can build a team with a bunch of second rounders and undrafted players, so stop the nonsense.

I think you should face the fact, there has been no team in NBA history that has taken the approach of 'blow it all up, lets tank for years' and done anything remotely impressive. Facts.

GS and Spurs honestly became dynasty teams cause of two simple factors:

Spurs were a champion caliber team, but lost Robinson for one season and won the lottery and got Tim Duncan. That rarely happens.

GS on the flipside had a Curry that was consistently injured and the team got lucky with Klay and Draymond. Curry came back post injury and became the best shooter of all time.

So if anything the common denominator is teams that were competitive, but end up losing a key star, they recharge big from the year their star goes down.

[ruckus]

Uh......
GSW let B.Davis go after they get 48win but still no playoff seasaon and get Curry at 7th, then after they get Klay at 11th and dump Monta Ellis to give the key to Curry

Don't let me say SAS get T.Duncan and Cavs get LBJ at 1st, both are the reason their team become competitve for long term

Face the fact,
talent matter in NBA,
that's why NBA players get paid bigger than other professional sport in US
the chance you want to get champion by a bunch of 2nd rounder and undraft player as your core are super rare.

I hope you appreciate the irony of your post, highlighting GSW and Spurs as 2 examples of teams that adopted Tanking as a viable strategy and it working out. In fact, they are the EXACT OPPOSITE of that, lol... they are 2 examples that show how Team Compete works, lol. 2 of the 3 great dynasties in our generation, neither of them tanked,

Start with GSW. They have always been compete compete compete.. the year they got Curry, they had Ellis, Crawford, Jackson, Maggette, Biedrins, Bellinelli... AKA, seasoned guys trying to make the make playoffs! they just weren't that good in a stacked west and finished 10th!! Or in other words 'the scary middle'.... How on gods green earth is that tanking? The year before that, they finished 9th.. the year before that they finished 8th, and infamously knocked of the MAvs in Round 1.. GSW has ALWAYS been about competing. Even the core 3 of their dynasty, outside of Curry at 7, none were drafted in the top 10?!?! Green was drafted in the second round for gods sake... sorry man, GSW does nothing but prove my point, not yours.

As for Spurs, again, another prime example of a team that did NOT tear down a single darn thing, and built a dynasty through competition and instilling a winning mindset. Spurs 95/96.. finish second in West with a team full of legit players.. Robinson, Elliot, Avery, Del Negro, Perdue... 96/97, Robinson goes down and their seasons goes down the toilet, yet they do NOT trade any of these guys.. they get Duncan. 97/98, Duncan joins a team that still has Elliot, Avery, Del NEgro, PErdue, of course Robinson, and they're back in the playoffs. They never say 'ah, we've got a new timeline with Duncan, lets go tell Duncan that were going to trade everyone for draft capital and tell him its ok to lose for a couple more years so we can tank, cause thats the only way we can get talent and surround him with a bunch of kids'... nope, it was the opposite, it was 'lets go!! lets get it!! lets compete!!!' The 2 remaining pillars of the Spurs / Duncan Dynasty, Parker and Ginobli, were acquired while competing, drafted 28th and 57th!!!

Man, some of ya'll posts are hilarious.. trying to turn 2 franchises who embody competition and winning, and trying to use them as
an example of teams that blew it up and embodied a tanking mentality? Magical stuff, really.

And not once did I say we can build a team with a bunch of second rounders and undrafted players, so stop the nonsense.

I think you should face the fact, there has been no team in NBA history that has taken the approach of 'blow it all up, lets tank for years' and done anything remotely impressive. Facts.

GS and Spurs honestly became dynasty teams cause of two simple factors:

Spurs were a champion caliber team, but lost Robinson for one season and won the lottery and got Tim Duncan. That rarely happens.

GS on the flipside had a Curry that was consistently injured and the team got lucky with Klay and Draymond. Curry came back post injury and became the best shooter of all time.

So if anything the common denominator is teams that were competitive, but end up losing a key star, they recharge big from the year their star goes down.

That's kind of what happened with the Tampa season. Obviously Scottie isn't Duncan level and Siakam isn't Admiral level but luck and timing is everything in pro sports. Because of 2019, I trust our front office's timing. It may not be palatable for the fans that look for changes when the water gets choppy but the front office's patience has paid off since Masai got here.

[Harold_and_Kumar]

i was surprised by the fire Ujiri crowd

is that ppl working on behalf of Ed Rogers, or BC burner accounts still?

Im not here to absolve management of everything, but fact remains the raps had 2 of the worst years of luck post championship (bubble and Tampa), then finished top 5, and now here we are in one of our more disappointing seasons in recent history. It is what it is, but that sports man.

In terms of solving the PG/C problem, again, I dont know.. I dont whats out there or what they've looked at. My inclination is that they felt FVV was going to be better than this and a potential long term fit, now has this year changed their opinion? I dunno.. but FVV's porous perimeter defense and cold shooting is the exact opposite of what this team needs. I still think FVV has league wide value, so maybe there is a piece we can get with him via trade. As for C, Raps have long been connected with players that I think would be difference makers to this squad, specifically the core 3 I identified.. Claxton.. Jarret Allen... Poetle.. but we always see to be a day late or a dollar short. But they clearly see a flaw in roster construct and want to get a solution there, and personally, Im not going to be overly upset that they dont compound the issue by trying to make a long term commitment to a C solution that isnt the right fit. Im fine being patient and trust that they have some guys in mind to go after, and are essentially treading water till the right piece comes along. Regardless point is that I think / hope that we have enough asset value in the likes of FVV / GTJ / Boucher / Expirings to remedy atleast one of these 2 roster flaws, hopefully both. IF we do, then were right in the competitive mix again with enough draft capital in the war chest to improve further. Blowing it all up.. stripping the team to Scotty.. makes no sense to me.

If there was something out there they thought could fix the centre issue, they would have done it over the past three seasons. It's clear we want to win, so because they haven't solved the issue I have to assume that there's nothing at fair value to fix it, and/or philosophically they believe they don't need it to be competitive. Either way, it's not a good look for the FO.

I do agree that we'd be better with a serviceable C on the roster to hide some of our defensive weaknesses, and would likely make us better on the fast break (better defensive rebounding) and in the half court (better screen setting and rolling actions). I think where we disagree is that I don't think it makes us that much better. Also, if we trade Fred for a centre, we still need a PG who can shoot the 3 and play good on-ball defense, trade GTJ/Boucher for that PG, and our bench is now a mess. I just think we need more talent in general if we even want to talk about being a contender. I guess that's something that can happen over the next 3-5 years, but then we're talking about Pascal coming out of his prime and we have a new problem to manage.

FWIW, I don't want to strip it to just Scottie either. I think we need to keep one of OG or Siakam to maintain a level of competitiveness and continuity. For me, which one we keep depends on the return, which as you said we can't really know. The young talent/picks we receive raise our ceiling and potentially make it even easier to make a win-now move when the time comes.

Wait, do you mean me? Because I don't want to fire Ujiri or Bobby... far from it.

I've said multiple times that I trust them to choose a direction, and one of the main reasons I'm okay with trading some of our better assets for more shots in the draft/guys ready to breakout is because of how talented they are at identifying high upside players. I just want them to choose a direction to take.

At the same time, previous success shouldn't make them immune to criticism forever. They make mistakes too and should feel some heat for them from time-to-time. I think that's healthy, or you end up becoming like the Leafs.

[Los_29]

A disappointing season, 2 years into a 5-7 year program is no reason to blow it all up.

If you think this is the final form of where the Scottie pick takes us, then, yeah sure... but who realistically thinks this 5-7 year roster rebuild is done already and needs a full reset?

I think people get extremely impatient and forget how early this team is in their rebuild. We were picking in the lottery just 18 months ago and lost half our rotation from our championship team. Things are going to take time. Seeing the way Scottie has been playing recently is why people should be patient.

[Los_29]

Thad Young sells hope! Those leadership qualities really coming in handy this year! Look how great the team is doing without tanking! Better than OKC!

Luckily we got him for free then. Masai and Bobby nailed it. They said there was very little difference between guys at 15 and guys at 35. Turned out to be right. Don't think they are losing any sleep over not drafting Malaki Branham and Christian Braun. LOL.

Just because Masai and Bobby is doing good doesn't mean they are doing 100% correct
look at Walker Kessler draft at "22th", who become a stud in recently
we get chance if not trade down.

Kessler is putting up Zubac numbers over the past month. I'd hardly call that being a stud. At the end of the day, we can evaluate this trade in 2-3 years. The front office knew exactly what kind of player Kessler was as did the other 21 teams that passed on him. Kessler is going to have a good career in this league but whether or not he can be anything more than a 20-25mpg situational big remains to be seen.

[deck]

Uh......
GSW let B.Davis go after they get 48win but still no playoff seasaon and get Curry at 7th, then after they get Klay at 11th and dump Monta Ellis to give the key to Curry

Don't let me say SAS get T.Duncan and Cavs get LBJ at 1st, both are the reason their team become competitve for long term

Face the fact,
talent matter in NBA,
that's why NBA players get paid bigger than other professional sport in US
the chance you want to get champion by a bunch of 2nd rounder and undraft player as your core are super rare.

I hope you appreciate the irony of your post, highlighting GSW and Spurs as 2 examples of teams that adopted Tanking as a viable strategy and it working out. In fact, they are the EXACT OPPOSITE of that, lol... they are 2 examples that show how Team Compete works, lol. 2 of the 3 great dynasties in our generation, neither of them tanked,

Start with GSW. They have always been compete compete compete.. the year they got Curry, they had Ellis, Crawford, Jackson, Maggette, Biedrins, Bellinelli... AKA, seasoned guys trying to make the make playoffs! they just weren't that good in a stacked west and finished 10th!! Or in other words 'the scary middle'.... How on gods green earth is that tanking? The year before that, they finished 9th.. the year before that they finished 8th, and infamously knocked of the MAvs in Round 1.. GSW has ALWAYS been about competing. Even the core 3 of their dynasty, outside of Curry at 7, none were drafted in the top 10?!?! Green was drafted in the second round for gods sake... sorry man, GSW does nothing but prove my point, not yours.

As for Spurs, again, another prime example of a team that did NOT tear down a single darn thing, and built a dynasty through competition and instilling a winning mindset. Spurs 95/96.. finish second in West with a team full of legit players.. Robinson, Elliot, Avery, Del Negro, Perdue... 96/97, Robinson goes down and their seasons goes down the toilet, yet they do NOT trade any of these guys.. they get Duncan. 97/98, Duncan joins a team that still has Elliot, Avery, Del NEgro, PErdue, of course Robinson, and they're back in the playoffs. They never say 'ah, we've got a new timeline with Duncan, lets go tell Duncan that were going to trade everyone for draft capital and tell him its ok to lose for a couple more years so we can tank, cause thats the only way we can get talent and surround him with a bunch of kids'... nope, it was the opposite, it was 'lets go!! lets get it!! lets compete!!!' The 2 remaining pillars of the Spurs / Duncan Dynasty, Parker and Ginobli, were acquired while competing, drafted 28th and 57th!!!

Man, some of ya'll posts are hilarious.. trying to turn 2 franchises who embody competition and winning, and trying to use them as
an example of teams that blew it up and embodied a tanking mentality? Magical stuff, really.

And not once did I say we can build a team with a bunch of second rounders and undrafted players, so stop the nonsense.

I think you should face the fact, there has been no team in NBA history that has taken the approach of 'blow it all up, lets tank for years' and done anything remotely impressive. Facts.

GS and Spurs honestly became dynasty teams cause of two simple factors:

Spurs were a champion caliber team, but lost Robinson for one season and won the lottery and got Tim Duncan. That rarely happens.

GS on the flipside had a Curry that was consistently injured and the team got lucky with Klay and Draymond. Curry came back post injury and became the best shooter of all time.

So if anything the common denominator is teams that were competitive, but end up losing a key star, they recharge big from the year their star goes down.

This is why calling it 'tanking' is so detrimental to the conversation. Tanking, for me at least, has the connotation of making your team purposefully worse in the near term in order to maximize your potential through the draft. And if you are adopting this strategy, I feel you do need to commit to it and look to build through the draft for multiple years, either by being consistently bad yourself, or by trading high-end talent (Siakam, OG) that gets you back multiple first rounders in future drafts. I was actually surprised to read via another thread how many of this years TWO supporters are actually in favour of only trading FVV or GTJ. With how FVV is playing, I am not even sure that makes us worse this year. Just being bad for this year and dipping our toes into the draft in the 7-12 range is not tanking to me. Any strategy going forward where we retain Siakam and maybe to an extent OG is really just re-tooling.

[KL78192020]

Luckily we got him for free then. Masai and Bobby nailed it. They said there was very little difference between guys at 15 and guys at 35. Turned out to be right. Don't think they are losing any sleep over not drafting Malaki Branham and Christian Braun. LOL.

Just because Masai and Bobby is doing good doesn't mean they are doing 100% correct
look at Walker Kessler draft at "22th", who become a stud in recently
we get chance if not trade down.

Kessler is putting up Zubac numbers over the past month. I'd hardly call that being a stud. At the end of the day, we can evaluate this trade in 2-3 years. The front office knew exactly what kind of player Kessler was as did the other 21 teams that passed on him. Kessler is going to have a good career in this league but whether or not he can be anything more than a 20-25mpg situational big remains to be seen.

You've apparently predicted the guys career for the next 15 years, cause he can't improve in other aspects of his game. Yet Koloko who is a year older can keep getting better.

He's much better than Zubac ever was in his rookie year, not even close.

[JB7]

Uh......
GSW let B.Davis go after they get 48win but still no playoff seasaon and get Curry at 7th, then after they get Klay at 11th and dump Monta Ellis to give the key to Curry

Don't let me say SAS get T.Duncan and Cavs get LBJ at 1st, both are the reason their team become competitve for long term

Face the fact,
talent matter in NBA,
that's why NBA players get paid bigger than other professional sport in US
the chance you want to get champion by a bunch of 2nd rounder and undraft player as your core are super rare.

I hope you appreciate the irony of your post, highlighting GSW and Spurs as 2 examples of teams that adopted Tanking as a viable strategy and it working out. In fact, they are the EXACT OPPOSITE of that, lol... they are 2 examples that show how Team Compete works, lol. 2 of the 3 great dynasties in our generation, neither of them tanked,

Start with GSW. They have always been compete compete compete.. the year they got Curry, they had Ellis, Crawford, Jackson, Maggette, Biedrins, Bellinelli... AKA, seasoned guys trying to make the make playoffs! they just weren't that good in a stacked west and finished 10th!! Or in other words 'the scary middle'.... How on gods green earth is that tanking? The year before that, they finished 9th.. the year before that they finished 8th, and infamously knocked of the MAvs in Round 1.. GSW has ALWAYS been about competing. Even the core 3 of their dynasty, outside of Curry at 7, none were drafted in the top 10?!?! Green was drafted in the second round for gods sake... sorry man, GSW does nothing but prove my point, not yours.

As for Spurs, again, another prime example of a team that did NOT tear down a single darn thing, and built a dynasty through competition and instilling a winning mindset. Spurs 95/96.. finish second in West with a team full of legit players.. Robinson, Elliot, Avery, Del Negro, Perdue... 96/97, Robinson goes down and their seasons goes down the toilet, yet they do NOT trade any of these guys.. they get Duncan. 97/98, Duncan joins a team that still has Elliot, Avery, Del NEgro, PErdue, of course Robinson, and they're back in the playoffs. They never say 'ah, we've got a new timeline with Duncan, lets go tell Duncan that were going to trade everyone for draft capital and tell him its ok to lose for a couple more years so we can tank, cause thats the only way we can get talent and surround him with a bunch of kids'... nope, it was the opposite, it was 'lets go!! lets get it!! lets compete!!!' The 2 remaining pillars of the Spurs / Duncan Dynasty, Parker and Ginobli, were acquired while competing, drafted 28th and 57th!!!

Man, some of ya'll posts are hilarious.. trying to turn 2 franchises who embody competition and winning, and trying to use them as
an example of teams that blew it up and embodied a tanking mentality? Magical stuff, really.

And not once did I say we can build a team with a bunch of second rounders and undrafted players, so stop the nonsense.

I think you should face the fact, there has been no team in NBA history that has taken the approach of 'blow it all up, lets tank for years' and done anything remotely impressive. Facts.

GS and Spurs honestly became dynasty teams cause of two simple factors:

Spurs were a champion caliber team, but lost Robinson for one season and won the lottery and got Tim Duncan. That rarely happens.

GS on the flipside had a Curry that was consistently injured and the team got lucky with Klay and Draymond. Curry came back post injury and became the best shooter of all time.

So if anything the common denominator is teams that were competitive, but end up losing a key star, they recharge big from the year their star goes down.

So the Spurs went from a record of 59-23 (.720%) in 1995-96, to 20-62 (.244%) in 1996-97, and then back up to 56-26 (.756%) in 1997-98, and the rationale for the drop is losing Robinson for the one season?

So clearly losing Robinson would have taken them out of contention that year, but it seems like this is one of the early examples of stealth tanking (doing everything possible to be one of the worst teams in the league, especially at a time where the lottery odds were more in their favour), because they were not the only team looking for the best lottery odds that year, as Boston came in with a worse record, with the hopes of drafting Duncan (Grizzlies had the worst record, but both them and Raps were not able to obtain the top pick in their first few years of existence).

And what did the Spurs get for that one miserable year. Only a player that would lead them to 5 championships, and an era of dominance.

[nikster]

On the surface your argument seems reasonable, but there's a major hole in it.

You make it seem easy to flip our middling assets into new assets that make us a conference finals team. Why do you think we've been rumoured for years to covet, but haven't acquired a rim protecting centre who shoots threes or a PG that shoots 40-45% from 3 and plays great on-ball defense? Turns out that these players are pretty valuable (read: commonly all-stars), don't get traded often, and would require an overpay.

So how do you expect us to acquire these pieces without trading Siakam, Scottie, or OG, Precious, or Koloko, and without selecting high in the draft or trading future picks? If there was a path to doing so, Masai would have.

While I trust Bobby/Masai to make the right moves moving forward, it's also fair to say they've had a poor couple of years (Scottie aside) and fans are rightly asking for roster change. It's reasonable to not see a clear direction with this team as it's currently constructed. We're trying to win now, riding our starters for 38 mins a night, and we're not even a play-in team! That's not normal. Also, the product we're watching is trash most nights - this team plays archaic basketball.

Where I agree is that I don't see a full teardown. We have some good assets, we just need to use them effectively to retool into a younger team with a higher ceiling of growth. In my eyes, that could mean we trade anyone minus Scottie for the best value in return. There's risk to tanking, but there's also risk to staying the course and hoping for another Kawhi to fall in your lap, and we're seeing it.

Im not here to absolve management of everything, but fact remains the raps had 2 of the worst years of luck post championship (bubble and Tampa), then finished top 5, and now here we are in one of our more disappointing seasons in recent history. It is what it is, but that sports man.

In terms of solving the PG/C problem, again, I dont know.. I dont whats out there or what they've looked at. My inclination is that they felt FVV was going to be better than this and a potential long term fit, now has this year changed their opinion? I dunno.. but FVV's porous perimeter defense and cold shooting is the exact opposite of what this team needs. I still think FVV has league wide value, so maybe there is a piece we can get with him via trade. As for C, Raps have long been connected with players that I think would be difference makers to this squad, specifically the core 3 I identified.. Claxton.. Jarret Allen... Poetle.. but we always see to be a day late or a dollar short. But they clearly see a flaw in roster construct and want to get a solution there, and personally, Im not going to be overly upset that they dont compound the issue by trying to make a long term commitment to a C solution that isnt the right fit. Im fine being patient and trust that they have some guys in mind to go after, and are essentially treading water till the right piece comes along. Regardless point is that I think / hope that we have enough asset value in the likes of FVV / GTJ / Boucher / Expirings to remedy atleast one of these 2 roster flaws, hopefully both. IF we do, then were right in the competitive mix again with enough draft capital in the war chest to improve further. Blowing it all up.. stripping the team to Scotty.. makes no sense to me.

If there was something out there they thought could fix the centre issue, they would have done it over the past three seasons. It's clear we want to win, so because they haven't solved the issue I have to assume that there's nothing at fair value to fix it, and/or philosophically they believe they don't need it to be competitive. Either way, it's not a good look for the FO.

I do agree that we'd be better with a serviceable C on the roster to hide some of our defensive weaknesses, and would likely make us better on the fast break (better defensive rebounding) and in the half court (better screen setting and rolling actions). I think where we disagree is that I don't think it makes us that much better. Also, if we trade Fred for a centre, we still need a PG who can shoot the 3 and play good on-ball defense, trade GTJ/Boucher for that PG, and our bench is now a mess. I just think we need more talent in general if we even want to talk about being a contender. I guess that's something that can happen over the next 3-5 years, but then we're talking about Pascal coming out of his prime and we have a new problem to manage.

FWIW, I don't want to strip it to just Scottie either. I think we need to keep one of OG or Siakam to maintain a level of competitiveness and continuity. For me, which one we keep depends on the return, which as you said we can't really know. The young talent/picks we receive raise our ceiling and potentially make it even easier to make a win-now move when the time comes.

Just want to point out that Raptors targeted Giannis for the 2021 off season. Once that happened they had to pivot so it would only have been about 2 years max Raps are looking for alternatives. And its not surprising after the Tampa season they would have wanted at least one more look at the team before considering moving assets for an upgrade.

[anotherhomer]

i was surprised by the fire Ujiri crowd

is that ppl working on behalf of Ed Rogers, or BC burner accounts still?

If there was something out there they thought could fix the centre issue, they would have done it over the past three seasons. It's clear we want to win, so because they haven't solved the issue I have to assume that there's nothing at fair value to fix it, and/or philosophically they believe they don't need it to be competitive. Either way, it's not a good look for the FO.

I do agree that we'd be better with a serviceable C on the roster to hide some of our defensive weaknesses, and would likely make us better on the fast break (better defensive rebounding) and in the half court (better screen setting and rolling actions). I think where we disagree is that I don't think it makes us that much better. Also, if we trade Fred for a centre, we still need a PG who can shoot the 3 and play good on-ball defense, trade GTJ/Boucher for that PG, and our bench is now a mess. I just think we need more talent in general if we even want to talk about being a contender. I guess that's something that can happen over the next 3-5 years, but then we're talking about Pascal coming out of his prime and we have a new problem to manage.

FWIW, I don't want to strip it to just Scottie either. I think we need to keep one of OG or Siakam to maintain a level of competitiveness and continuity. For me, which one we keep depends on the return, which as you said we can't really know. The young talent/picks we receive raise our ceiling and potentially make it even easier to make a win-now move when the time comes.

Wait, do you mean me? Because I don't want to fire Ujiri or Bobby... far from it.

I've said multiple times that I trust them to choose a direction, and one of the main reasons I'm okay with trading some of our better assets for more shots in the draft/guys ready to breakout is because of how talented they are at identifying high upside players. I just want them to choose a direction to take.

At the same time, previous success shouldn't make them immune to criticism forever. They make mistakes too and should feel some heat for them from time-to-time. I think that's healthy, or you end up becoming like the Leafs.

if they go the Joe Dumars route....become complacent and lazy, then i be concern but i don't sense that

I don't think Ujiri is....playing devil's advocate...i think Ujiri wants to make sure his team does well....so he can finally get NBA ownership with Las Vegas expansion team in 2026....that's 3 years from now....

i think he wants to make sure Raps remain competitive until then

[Los_29]

Against my better judgement, I’m going to weigh into this thread.

A couple quick general comments:

1. Show me 1 single team that has won the chip using tanking as their primary building block.. just one… hint, they don’t exist.

Uh......
GSW let B.Davis go after they get 48win but still no playoff seasaon and get Curry at 7th, then after they get Klay at 11th and dump Monta Ellis to give the key to Curry

Don't let me say SAS get T.Duncan and Cavs get LBJ at 1st, both are the reason their team become competitve for long term

Face the fact,
talent matter in NBA,
that's why NBA players get paid bigger than other professional sport in US
the chance you want to get champion by a bunch of 2nd rounder and undraft player as your core are super rare.

I hope you appreciate the irony of your post, highlighting GSW and Spurs as 2 examples of teams that adopted Tanking as a viable strategy and it working out. In fact, they are the EXACT OPPOSITE of that, lol... they are 2 examples that show how Team Compete works, lol. 2 of the 3 great dynasties in our generation, neither of them tanked,

Start with GSW. They have always been compete compete compete.. the year they got Curry, they had Ellis, Crawford, Jackson, Maggette, Biedrins, Bellinelli... AKA, seasoned guys trying to make the make playoffs! they just weren't that good in a stacked west and finished 10th!! Or in other words 'the scary middle'.... How on gods green earth is that tanking? The year before that, they finished 9th.. the year before that they finished 8th, and infamously knocked of the MAvs in Round 1.. GSW has ALWAYS been about competing. Even the core 3 of their dynasty, outside of Curry at 7, none were drafted in the top 10?!?! Green was drafted in the second round for gods sake... sorry man, GSW does nothing but prove my point, not yours.

As for Spurs, again, another prime example of a team that did NOT tear down a single darn thing, and built a dynasty through competition and instilling a winning mindset. Spurs 95/96.. finish second in West with a team full of legit players.. Robinson, Elliot, Avery, Del Negro, Perdue... 96/97, Robinson goes down and their seasons goes down the toilet, yet they do NOT trade any of these guys.. they get Duncan. 97/98, Duncan joins a team that still has Elliot, Avery, Del NEgro, PErdue, of course Robinson, and they're back in the playoffs. They never say 'ah, we've got a new timeline with Duncan, lets go tell Duncan that were going to trade everyone for draft capital and tell him its ok to lose for a couple more years so we can tank, cause thats the only way we can get talent and surround him with a bunch of kids'... nope, it was the opposite, it was 'lets go!! lets get it!! lets compete!!!' The 2 remaining pillars of the Spurs / Duncan Dynasty, Parker and Ginobli, were acquired while competing, drafted 28th and 57th!!!

Man, some of ya'll posts are hilarious.. trying to turn 2 franchises who embody competition and winning, and trying to use them as
an example of teams that blew it up and embodied a tanking mentality? Magical stuff, really.

And not once did I say we can build a team with a bunch of second rounders and undrafted players, so stop the nonsense.

I think you should face the fact, there has been no team in NBA history that has taken the approach of 'blow it all up, lets tank for years' and done anything remotely impressive. Facts.

Bingo! Spurs and Warriors are two horrendous examples given the fact they never gutted their team. They kept a treadmill core of guys like Monta Ellis, Stephen Jackson, Corey Maggette and Andris Biedrins. They then landed Curry and then managed to land Draymond and Klay the following year.

The Spurs are an even worse example. They won nearly 60 games in 1995-96. Then Robinson got hurt and missed the first two months of the year then he got hurt again and missed the rest of the year. Sean Elliot also missed more than half the year. They then got some lottery luck and got Tim Duncan which set them up for the next couple of decades.

I think people are shocked when they find out that no team has ever gutted their team and went onto do anything. But it's an absolute fact. As impressive as the returns the Jazz got for Mitchell and Gobert, they still need to do the hardest part and that is find franchise talent. Everyone was hyping up OKC and the job Presti has done and yet all that guy has drafted in three years is Josh Giddey. They now have a core of SGA and Giddey. I don't think anyone, even Canadians and Australians think that's a championship core. Now they are hovering around .500 and in that play-in range which is likely going to put them out of the running for Wembanyama and Scoot. People don't realize how hard this stuff is. You have to be insanely lucky in the lottery and the draft class to land that franchise player. Then once you do land him, you have to continue to add pieces around him and that's no easy task especially if you have already gutted your team. You now have to develop not only your franchise player but the supporting cast as well.

[Los_29]

i was surprised by the fire Ujiri crowd

is that ppl working on behalf of Ed Rogers, or BC burner accounts still?

Wait, do you mean me? Because I don't want to fire Ujiri or Bobby... far from it.

I've said multiple times that I trust them to choose a direction, and one of the main reasons I'm okay with trading some of our better assets for more shots in the draft/guys ready to breakout is because of how talented they are at identifying high upside players. I just want them to choose a direction to take.

At the same time, previous success shouldn't make them immune to criticism forever. They make mistakes too and should feel some heat for them from time-to-time. I think that's healthy, or you end up becoming like the Leafs.

if they go the Joe Dumars route....become complacent and lazy, then i be concern but i don't sense that

I don't think Ujiri is....playing devil's advocate...i think Ujiri wants to make sure his team does well....so he can finally get NBA ownership with Las Vegas expansion team in 2026....that's 3 years from now....

i think he wants to make sure Raps remain competitive until then

Where did you hear this thing about Vegas? For some reason, Vegas seems like the last place Masai would want to go to.

[Harold_and_Kumar]

i was surprised by the fire Ujiri crowd

is that ppl working on behalf of Ed Rogers, or BC burner accounts still?

Wait, do you mean me? Because I don't want to fire Ujiri or Bobby... far from it.

I've said multiple times that I trust them to choose a direction, and one of the main reasons I'm okay with trading some of our better assets for more shots in the draft/guys ready to breakout is because of how talented they are at identifying high upside players. I just want them to choose a direction to take.

At the same time, previous success shouldn't make them immune to criticism forever. They make mistakes too and should feel some heat for them from time-to-time. I think that's healthy, or you end up becoming like the Leafs.

if they go the Joe Dumars route....become complacent and lazy, then i be concern but i don't sense that

I don't think Ujiri is....playing devil's advocate...i think Ujiri wants to make sure his team does well....so he can finally get NBA ownership with Las Vegas expansion team in 2026....that's 3 years from now....

i think he wants to make sure Raps remain competitive until then

I don't think they'll go the Dumars route (lol) either. I guess I'm getting antsy thinking about what needs to happen I'm the next six months. It's potentially franchise-altering.

The rest of your take is SPICY. I hope he's not being driven to stay competitive out of personal gain, that would be rough. Also, I'm not sure it matters - everyone knows what Masai brings to the table!

[TheRaptor!]

TLDR I aint reading all this ****

Management has chosen to not tank clearly and this upsets newphews

1. I dont know how many were during the Bosh era, it was not fun and it took ages for us to become a credible franchise and worth respecting, you dont throw away 10 years of progress down the drain

2. Risk; you do not trade away a certified all NBA player like Siakam for a chance of drafting and developing a player as good as he is today 7 years down the line

3. Money, you can say you prefer delayed gratification, dont mind watchin scottie cook while losing, cool story and premise. However, people who actually vote with their wallet, eg people who not only watch from home but spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for home games, playoff games, and season tickets don't want to pay for a losing product.

As an adult with responsibilities and limited free time, I aint got the patience or time to watch a rebuild like I once did. I, like many other fans with disposable income will choose to dispose their income elsewhere.

[ConSarnit]

On the surface your argument seems reasonable, but there's a major hole in it.

You make it seem easy to flip our middling assets into new assets that make us a conference finals team. Why do you think we've been rumoured for years to covet, but haven't acquired a rim protecting centre who shoots threes or a PG that shoots 40-45% from 3 and plays great on-ball defense? Turns out that these players are pretty valuable (read: commonly all-stars), don't get traded often, and would require an overpay.

So how do you expect us to acquire these pieces without trading Siakam, Scottie, or OG, Precious, or Koloko, and without selecting high in the draft or trading future picks? If there was a path to doing so, Masai would have.

While I trust Bobby/Masai to make the right moves moving forward, it's also fair to say they've had a poor couple of years (Scottie aside) and fans are rightly asking for roster change. It's reasonable to not see a clear direction with this team as it's currently constructed. We're trying to win now, riding our starters for 38 mins a night, and we're not even a play-in team! That's not normal. Also, the product we're watching is trash most nights - this team plays archaic basketball.

Where I agree is that I don't see a full teardown. We have some good assets, we just need to use them effectively to retool into a younger team with a higher ceiling of growth. In my eyes, that could mean we trade anyone minus Scottie for the best value in return. There's risk to tanking, but there's also risk to staying the course and hoping for another Kawhi to fall in your lap, and we're seeing it.

Im not here to absolve management of everything, but fact remains the raps had 2 of the worst years of luck post championship (bubble and Tampa), then finished top 5, and now here we are in one of our more disappointing seasons in recent history. It is what it is, but that sports man.

In terms of solving the PG/C problem, again, I dont know.. I dont whats out there or what they've looked at. My inclination is that they felt FVV was going to be better than this and a potential long term fit, now has this year changed their opinion? I dunno.. but FVV's porous perimeter defense and cold shooting is the exact opposite of what this team needs. I still think FVV has league wide value, so maybe there is a piece we can get with him via trade. As for C, Raps have long been connected with players that I think would be difference makers to this squad, specifically the core 3 I identified.. Claxton.. Jarret Allen... Poetle.. but we always see to be a day late or a dollar short. But they clearly see a flaw in roster construct and want to get a solution there, and personally, Im not going to be overly upset that they dont compound the issue by trying to make a long term commitment to a C solution that isnt the right fit. Im fine being patient and trust that they have some guys in mind to go after, and are essentially treading water till the right piece comes along. Regardless point is that I think / hope that we have enough asset value in the likes of FVV / GTJ / Boucher / Expirings to remedy atleast one of these 2 roster flaws, hopefully both. IF we do, then were right in the competitive mix again with enough draft capital in the war chest to improve further. Blowing it all up.. stripping the team to Scotty.. makes no sense to me.

If there was something out there they thought could fix the centre issue, they would have done it over the past three seasons. It's clear we want to win, so because they haven't solved the issue I have to assume that there's nothing at fair value to fix it, and/or philosophically they believe they don't need it to be competitive. Either way, it's not a good look for the FO.

I do agree that we'd be better with a serviceable C on the roster to hide some of our defensive weaknesses, and would likely make us better on the fast break (better defensive rebounding) and in the half court (better screen setting and rolling actions). I think where we disagree is that I don't think it makes us that much better. Also, if we trade Fred for a centre, we still need a PG who can shoot the 3 and play good on-ball defense, trade GTJ/Boucher for that PG, and our bench is now a mess. I just think we need more talent in general if we even want to talk about being a contender. I guess that's something that can happen over the next 3-5 years, but then we're talking about Pascal coming out of his prime and we have a new problem to manage.

FWIW, I don't want to strip it to just Scottie either. I think we need to keep one of OG or Siakam to maintain a level of competitiveness and continuity. For me, which one we keep depends on the return, which as you said we can't really know. The young talent/picks we receive raise our ceiling and potentially make it even easier to make a win-now move when the time comes.

I tend to agree with this. We saw good success last year using Achiuwa at C lineups with 4 other starters. When Precious was shooting 3's consistently and putting up good rim protection numbers those lineups worked. FVV was exactly that 3&D type PG last year (albeit with larger responsibilities). So we've seen (at some level) exactly what a 3&D PG/C combo with Barnes/OG/Siakam looks like. It looks like 48 wins. But that's about the ceiling. Siakam is a #2. OG is a great 3&D guy (and not much more). Barnes is the question mark. If he can't become a true #1 option (or high level offensive creator) this team has a ceiling no matter which parts we shuffle around.

I tend to believe our FO feels like they can get a C at any time and because of this will wait until the rest of the team is figured out before throwing assets at a C. There are good centers floating around the trade market at all times and we already have 2 guys with potential on the roster (Precious if he can remember how to shoot and Koloko once he gets more experience).

We need high end talent. Right now we have 3 ways to get there: internally with Scottie, through the draft (tank this year at least) or trade (at an enormous cost). The FO could make this team a 50~ win team tomorrow if they wanted, but it doesn't solve the issue of not having a true #1 on the team. As such the offense will always be mediocre.

I think we are sort of being held hostage by Scottie and his development (not his fault). If he had made another jump this year you can see the outline of a contender. Instead we have a team where everyone is getting Peter Principled into a role 1 level above where they should be.

We are in a really tough spot. We have a lot of dominoes that could fall because of upcoming UFA status for 4 of our starters.

[Harold_and_Kumar]

Uh......
GSW let B.Davis go after they get 48win but still no playoff seasaon and get Curry at 7th, then after they get Klay at 11th and dump Monta Ellis to give the key to Curry

Don't let me say SAS get T.Duncan and Cavs get LBJ at 1st, both are the reason their team become competitve for long term

Face the fact,
talent matter in NBA,
that's why NBA players get paid bigger than other professional sport in US
the chance you want to get champion by a bunch of 2nd rounder and undraft player as your core are super rare.

I hope you appreciate the irony of your post, highlighting GSW and Spurs as 2 examples of teams that adopted Tanking as a viable strategy and it working out. In fact, they are the EXACT OPPOSITE of that, lol... they are 2 examples that show how Team Compete works, lol. 2 of the 3 great dynasties in our generation, neither of them tanked,

Start with GSW. They have always been compete compete compete.. the year they got Curry, they had Ellis, Crawford, Jackson, Maggette, Biedrins, Bellinelli... AKA, seasoned guys trying to make the make playoffs! they just weren't that good in a stacked west and finished 10th!! Or in other words 'the scary middle'.... How on gods green earth is that tanking? The year before that, they finished 9th.. the year before that they finished 8th, and infamously knocked of the MAvs in Round 1.. GSW has ALWAYS been about competing. Even the core 3 of their dynasty, outside of Curry at 7, none were drafted in the top 10?!?! Green was drafted in the second round for gods sake... sorry man, GSW does nothing but prove my point, not yours.

As for Spurs, again, another prime example of a team that did NOT tear down a single darn thing, and built a dynasty through competition and instilling a winning mindset. Spurs 95/96.. finish second in West with a team full of legit players.. Robinson, Elliot, Avery, Del Negro, Perdue... 96/97, Robinson goes down and their seasons goes down the toilet, yet they do NOT trade any of these guys.. they get Duncan. 97/98, Duncan joins a team that still has Elliot, Avery, Del NEgro, PErdue, of course Robinson, and they're back in the playoffs. They never say 'ah, we've got a new timeline with Duncan, lets go tell Duncan that were going to trade everyone for draft capital and tell him its ok to lose for a couple more years so we can tank, cause thats the only way we can get talent and surround him with a bunch of kids'... nope, it was the opposite, it was 'lets go!! lets get it!! lets compete!!!' The 2 remaining pillars of the Spurs / Duncan Dynasty, Parker and Ginobli, were acquired while competing, drafted 28th and 57th!!!

Man, some of ya'll posts are hilarious.. trying to turn 2 franchises who embody competition and winning, and trying to use them as
an example of teams that blew it up and embodied a tanking mentality? Magical stuff, really.

And not once did I say we can build a team with a bunch of second rounders and undrafted players, so stop the nonsense.

I think you should face the fact, there has been no team in NBA history that has taken the approach of 'blow it all up, lets tank for years' and done anything remotely impressive. Facts.

Bingo! Spurs and Warriors are two horrendous examples given the fact they never gutted their team. They kept a treadmill core of guys like Monta Ellis, Stephen Jackson, Corey Maggette and Andris Biedrins. They then landed Curry and then managed to land Draymond and Klay the following year.

The Spurs are an even worse example. They won nearly 60 games in 1995-96. Then Robinson got hurt and missed the first two months of the year then he got hurt again and missed the rest of the year. Sean Elliot also missed more than half the year. They then got some lottery luck and got Tim Duncan which set them up for the next couple of decades.

I think people are shocked when they find out that no team has ever gutted their team and went onto do anything. But it's an absolute fact. As impressive as the returns the Jazz got for Mitchell and Gobert, they still need to do the hardest part and that is find franchise talent. Everyone was hyping up OKC and the job Presti has done and yet all that guy has drafted in three years is Josh Giddey. They now have a core of SGA and Giddey. I don't think anyone, even Canadians and Australians think that's a championship core. Now they are hovering around .500 and in that play-in range which is likely going to put them out of the running for Wembanyama and Scoot. People don't realize how hard this stuff is. You have to be insanely lucky in the lottery and the draft class to land that franchise player. Then once you do land him, you have to continue to add pieces around him and that's no easy task especially if you have already gutted your team. You now have to develop not only your franchise player but the supporting cast as well.

Really good points about OKC and the difficulties of tanking effectively.

The Cavs definitely tanked for LeBron. I think your broader point is well made though.