Rings are completely meaningsless to evaluate an NBA Legend's legacy

[MrPainfulTruth]

If this is the case then people shouldn't bother evaluating players legacy.

Winning in sport is an objective measure of who is best, if a player wants to claim he's better than another player he better prove it on court not in the minds of armchair analysts and pundits.

Winning championships is the only thing that matters when evaluating a players legacy. Jokic would trade his 3 MVPs for another ring in a heartbeat.

Winning in a team sport is an objective measure of who is the best team. Basketball is not tennis. No matter how much people want to believe that a single player determines a NBA championship, it will never be true.

And? Winning a championship as part of a team is still the single most important goal in a players career, this is unarguable, we even scorn players that put individual accolades ahead of team success (Embiid has been accused of this). If you do not end on the championship winning side at the end of a season, you have had a disappointing season. Championships are the only meaningful measure of success.

I dont think that is the single function to maximize. It has to happen within a certain set of conditions or winning becomes meaningless. At least that is common understanding. As a european i see many leagues that function very different from the NBA and each league has to come up with a set of laws that leads to interesting competition, or else the product will be very predictable and boring. In the NBA, theres no relegation, no team gets demoted to a lower league as common in europe; fair and half way balanced competition is constructed by budget caps, complex trade rules, the lottery and so on. But players, teams and agents have become extremely creative working around this and, while damaging the integrity of the league, started colluding in superteams and agencies that represent a huge set of players. We have to take this into consideration and not only accept the premise that winning is the one measure, and it should happen at any cost. Winning at a "fair" team has to count more than winning on a team full of incompetitive weak minded supertalents. Going to extremes, most people dont respect any of KD's rings or LeBron's rings as much as Dirks.

[Iwasawitness]

These guys are so obsessive i have serious doubts they are normal participants. Its a well known fact that Klutch does guerilla marketing on social media, i wonder, do we have some of them here and how many? Either way it would explain they literally defend everything LBJ ever did to their virtual deaths, insulting and badmouthing everyone who dares to express critical opionion. There is no rational discussing with them obviously - but rest assured they are a noisy, but small minority .Watch the other thread to see how the majority thinks about this ring topic, its a landslide.

Buddy, you literally made an anti-LeBron thread and tried to disguise it as one about AD. You're pretending to be some objective poster but the reality is you're just on the opposite end of the extreme you're claiming we're on. And even then, at least what I'm saying is actually based on reality. How many people here now have called you out for your username being the exact opposite of what your name is? I'm willing to bet the number is higher than the amount of rings Bill Russell has won.

A little like your comrade in arms Scranton Bulls perhaps ?. And did you actually witness Jordan play in his time yourself ?.

You mean the guy I frequently criticize for his tendency to make bait threads that are designed at triggering Jordan fans?

[Iwasawitness]

Buddy, you literally made an anti-LeBron thread and tried to disguise it as one about AD. You're pretending to be some objective poster but the reality is you're just on the opposite end of the extreme you're claiming we're on. And even then, at least what I'm saying is actually based on reality. How many people here now have called you out for your username being the exact opposite of what your name is? I'm willing to bet the number is higher than the amount of rings Bill Russell has won.

A little like your comrade in arms Scranton Bulls perhaps ?. And did you actually witness Jordan play in his time yourself ?.

I have this guy blocked for these useless posts. He never answers the questions, only attacks people personally...not worth my time.

look what popped up in my timeline today...how appropriate.

Watch on YouTube

That isn’t why you blocked me. You blocked me because you kept getting called out by me for your false anti LeBron posts that didn’t reflect reality at all. And now you’re scared to reply because it’ll keep ending the same way it always does: you being embarrassed.

[AmIWrongDude]

Buddy, you literally made an anti-LeBron thread and tried to disguise it as one about AD. You're pretending to be some objective poster but the reality is you're just on the opposite end of the extreme you're claiming we're on. And even then, at least what I'm saying is actually based on reality. How many people here now have called you out for your username being the exact opposite of what your name is? I'm willing to bet the number is higher than the amount of rings Bill Russell has won.

A little like your comrade in arms Scranton Bulls perhaps ?. And did you actually witness Jordan play in his time yourself ?.

I have this guy blocked for these useless posts. He never answers the questions, only attacks people personally...not worth my time.

look what popped up in my timeline today...how appropriate.

Watch on YouTube

Posting Stephen A vids now…reached a new low lol

[MrPainfulTruth]

A little like your comrade in arms Scranton Bulls perhaps ?. And did you actually witness Jordan play in his time yourself ?.

I have this guy blocked for these useless posts. He never answers the questions, only attacks people personally...not worth my time.

look what popped up in my timeline today...how appropriate.

Watch on YouTube

Posting Stephen A vids now…reached a new low lol

Thank you for proving my point

As discussed in the video, LeBron people are the most sensitive crowd ever. Please keep it going

[Iwasawitness]

I have this guy blocked for these useless posts. He never answers the questions, only attacks people personally...not worth my time.

look what popped up in my timeline today...how appropriate.

Watch on YouTube

Posting Stephen A vids now…reached a new low lol

Thank you for proving my point

As discussed in the video, LeBron people are the most sensitive crowd ever. Please keep it going

How exactly did he prove your point?

[AmIWrongDude]

I have this guy blocked for these useless posts. He never answers the questions, only attacks people personally...not worth my time.

look what popped up in my timeline today...how appropriate.

Watch on YouTube

Posting Stephen A vids now…reached a new low lol

Thank you for proving my point

As discussed in the video, LeBron people are the most sensitive crowd ever. Please keep it going

Sure thing Skip

[UglyBugBall]

Teams don't influence ring counts, stars do. There's a reason all the rings are won by stars and you don't see teams without them winning. A star will over the course of their career win the exact same number of rings regardless of what franchise drafted them or who they played for. MJ would have had 6 on any franchise, same for Lebron, Magic and you can go down the list. So yes, rings are important, they are the most important measure of player impact.

[ScrantonBulls]

Buddy, you literally made an anti-LeBron thread and tried to disguise it as one about AD. You're pretending to be some objective poster but the reality is you're just on the opposite end of the extreme you're claiming we're on. And even then, at least what I'm saying is actually based on reality. How many people here now have called you out for your username being the exact opposite of what your name is? I'm willing to bet the number is higher than the amount of rings Bill Russell has won.

A little like your comrade in arms Scranton Bulls perhaps ?. And did you actually witness Jordan play in his time yourself ?.

You mean the guy I frequently criticize for his tendency to make bait threads that are designed at triggering Jordan fans?

So it's somehow my fault for other people making themselves look like damn fools in the threads I make?

[Djoker]

Imagine someone used this argument in other sports?

World Cups not important in soccer.
Superbowls not important in football.
Grand Slams not important in tennis.
World Series not important in baseball.
Stanley Cups not important in hockey.
Olympic Gold medals not important in track and field.

Etc.

Athletes are LITERALLY measured by winning. Of course there is context but to say it's meaningless... The title of this thread has to be one of the worst I've ever read on a sports forum.

[Iwasawitness]

A little like your comrade in arms Scranton Bulls perhaps ?. And did you actually witness Jordan play in his time yourself ?.

You mean the guy I frequently criticize for his tendency to make bait threads that are designed at triggering Jordan fans?

So it's somehow my fault for other people making themselves look like damn fools in the threads I make?

You post with an agenda. I don’t care if what you say isn’t always as bad as what they say, you aren’t any different.

[sashaturiaf]

Imagine someone used this argument in other sports?

World Cups not important in soccer.
Superbowls not important in football.
Grand Slams not important in tennis.
World Series not important in baseball.
Stanley Cups not important in hockey.
Olympic Gold medals not important in track and field.

Etc.

Athletes are LITERALLY measured by winning. Of course there is context but to say it's meaningless... The title of this thread has to be one of the worst I've ever read on a sports forum.

You can say it's a reflection of the change in society as a whole but I absolutely can understand the younger fans these days valuing individual stats over winning in a team sport.

Organised sports developed over time from leisure for the gentry to amateur enthusiast clubs and so on. There were typically no crowds beyond friends and family and more importantly money was not a factor. This is the sport we all played as kids in school, winning was the prize and the spirit of competition is what drove you.

Come to now and sports leagues like the NBA is as commercialised and monetized as any other show on mainstream TV. The world as a whole economically is divided between winners and losers with a massive gulf of nothing in the middle. And technology is so advanced you can track any form of stat you want just with a camera, an app and a phone. Sports is just a means to an end now, like any other job. Get yours and get out.

As a millennial who grew up under the old model I absolutely abhor this new model as I watch sports for fun, even though I understand it. So yeah, I blame low NBA ratings on the world

[michaelm]

You mean the guy I frequently criticize for his tendency to make bait threads that are designed at triggering Jordan fans?

So it's somehow my fault for other people making themselves look like damn fools in the threads I make?

You post with an agenda. I don’t care if what you say isn’t always as bad as what they say, you aren’t any different.

As do you very obviously. And you are pretending to be objective to at least as great an extent as those you criticise as this post illustrates. You are clearly among those who don’t understand the concept of irony.

[michaelm]

Imagine someone used this argument in other sports?

World Cups not important in soccer.
Superbowls not important in football.
Grand Slams not important in tennis.
World Series not important in baseball.
Stanley Cups not important in hockey.
Olympic Gold medals not important in track and field.

Etc.

Athletes are LITERALLY measured by winning. Of course there is context but to say it's meaningless... The title of this thread has to be one of the worst I've ever read on a sports forum.

You can say it's a reflection of the change in society as a whole but I absolutely can understand the younger fans these days valuing individual stats over winning in a team sport.

Organised sports developed over time from leisure for the gentry to amateur enthusiast clubs and so on. There were typically no crowds beyond friends and family and more importantly money was not a factor. This is the sport we all played as kids in school, winning was the prize and the spirit of competition is what drove you.

Come to now and sports leagues like the NBA is as commercialised and monetized as any other show on mainstream TV. The world as a whole economically is divided between winners and losers with a massive gulf of nothing in the middle. And technology is so advanced you can track any form of stat you want just with a camera, an app and a phone. Sports is just a means to an end now, like any other job. Get yours and get out.

As a millennial who grew up under the old model I absolutely abhor this new model as I watch sports for fun, even though I understand it. So yeah, I blame low NBA ratings on the world

Sure, happening in many sports. People doubt the survival of the traditional pinnacle of the sport of cricket, test cricket, which could and often did go for 5 days, sometimes without a result after the 5 days. It is not played as it was back then by the current generation, but even 3 days is a long time and a much shorter form of the game, over in a few hours, is the main deal now at least financially.

[ScrantonBulls]

So it's somehow my fault for other people making themselves look like damn fools in the threads I make?

You post with an agenda. I don’t care if what you say isn’t always as bad as what they say, you aren’t any different.

As do you very obviously. And you are pretending to be objective to at least as great an extent as those you criticise as this post illustrates. You are clearly among those who don’t understand the concept of irony.

Thanks michaelm

[sashaturiaf]

Imagine someone used this argument in other sports?

World Cups not important in soccer.
Superbowls not important in football.
Grand Slams not important in tennis.
World Series not important in baseball.
Stanley Cups not important in hockey.
Olympic Gold medals not important in track and field.

Etc.

Athletes are LITERALLY measured by winning. Of course there is context but to say it's meaningless... The title of this thread has to be one of the worst I've ever read on a sports forum.

You can say it's a reflection of the change in society as a whole but I absolutely can understand the younger fans these days valuing individual stats over winning in a team sport.

Organised sports developed over time from leisure for the gentry to amateur enthusiast clubs and so on. There were typically no crowds beyond friends and family and more importantly money was not a factor. This is the sport we all played as kids in school, winning was the prize and the spirit of competition is what drove you.

Come to now and sports leagues like the NBA is as commercialised and monetized as any other show on mainstream TV. The world as a whole economically is divided between winners and losers with a massive gulf of nothing in the middle. And technology is so advanced you can track any form of stat you want just with a camera, an app and a phone. Sports is just a means to an end now, like any other job. Get yours and get out.

As a millennial who grew up under the old model I absolutely abhor this new model as I watch sports for fun, even though I understand it. So yeah, I blame low NBA ratings on the world

Sure, happening in many sports. People doubt the survival of the traditional pinnacle of the sport of cricket, test cricket, which could and often did go for 5 days, sometimes without a result after the 5 days. It is not played as it was back then by the current generation!, but even 3 days is a long time and a much shorter form of the game, over in a few hours, is the main deal now at least financially.

5 days for a game of sport is something else. I'm guessing it Cricket was American, this would have gone extinct by the 80s

[sashaturiaf]

So it's somehow my fault for other people making themselves look like damn fools in the threads I make?

You post with an agenda. I don’t care if what you say isn’t always as bad as what they say, you aren’t any different.

As do you very obviously. And you are pretending to be objective to at least as great an extent as those you criticise as this post illustrates. You are clearly among those who don’t understand the concept of irony.

I was nodding my head along to that post until I saw ... Then I spat out my milk

[Iwasawitness]

So it's somehow my fault for other people making themselves look like damn fools in the threads I make?

You post with an agenda. I don’t care if what you say isn’t always as bad as what they say, you aren’t any different.

As do you very obviously. And you are pretending to be objective to at least as great an extent as those you criticise as this post illustrates. You are clearly among those who don’t understand the concept of irony.

I post with an agenda because I called you out on your bs KD takes? I don’t think you understand what an agenda is. Then again, I became convinced a long time ago that you don’t understand the meaning behind half the terms you use.

There’s no pretending here. I’ll gladly call out LeBron’s mistakes and weaknesses as well as the fact that, surprise surprise, he isn’t some god.

[michaelm]

You post with an agenda. I don’t care if what you say isn’t always as bad as what they say, you aren’t any different.

As do you very obviously. And you are pretending to be objective to at least as great an extent as those you criticise as this post illustrates. You are clearly among those who don’t understand the concept of irony.

I post with an agenda because I called you out on your bs KD takes? I don’t think you understand what an agenda is. Then again, I became convinced a long time ago that you don’t understand the meaning behind half the terms you use.

There’s no pretending here. I’ll gladly call out LeBron’s mistakes and weaknesses as well as the fact that, surprise surprise, he isn’t some god.

No, you post with an agenda in general, very obviously, and attempt to switch from the general to the specific when caught out yourself. I have never claimed to be objective at all, but rather biased like everyone else on an internet fan sports forum, including you as well as me. Your entire schtick is to diminish Jordan and promote LeBron, mainly by presenting statistics/metrics (which you don’t appear to understand yourself btw) which largely rely on longevity.

And if you caught me out on a late night post LeBron still joined a top 5 player twice as you couldn’t dispute, despite declaring victory for yourself as is your wont when losing an argument. As I said in a further post, on the other occasion which was when he rejoined the Cavs he joined a guy who had been a number one draft pick,who was already seen as a franchise level player and who had already been a dual all star without him as well as MVP of a FIBA world championship and awarded US male basketball we of the year. He had also been MVP of an all star game for that matter which I said I considered less relevant. He made his move at a time when the Cavs just happened to have a further number one pick who could be traded for another franchise player. It was also when LeBron had become a Free Agent so I had no problem with that, just with his partisans such as you claiming he somehow took a hard path. I don’t see his intent as different than KD’s, and if Jordan was advantaged by playing with Pippen LeBron sought similar level help, including joining up with players who were definitely top 5 players twice and on the other occasion with 2 players who were hardly chopped liver and were regarded as franchise players. Sure his path became more difficult, but he didn’t join up with Wade expecting him to be limited so soon by injury, or with Kyrie already knowing he was a flat earther and injury prone. If Bosh and Love were bad fits or not as good as was thought they were still his choices, and however great a player he is he is imo not all that great a GM.

You do btw like proving the points of your opponents, resorting to argumentum ad hominem again when challenged as another poster noted is your habit.

[Iwasawitness]

No, you post with an agenda in general, very obviously, and attempt to switch from the general to the specific when caught out yourself. And I have never claimed to be objective at all, but rather biased like everyone else on an internet fan sports forum, including you as well as me. Your entire schtick is to diminish Jordan and promote LeBron, mainly by presenting statistics/metrics (which you don’t appear to understand btw) which largely rely on longevity.

And where, pray tell me, are these examples of me diminishing Jordan for the sake of propping up LeBron? Because I've never had a problem admitting that Jordan is in fact the consensus GOAT, that he holds some of the greatest finals series performances of all time, and that he is the greatest two way player in the history of the game (yes, better than LeBron). I just have no problem acknowledging that he also had weaknesses, played on stacked teams, and didn't have to deal with superior competition in the finals like LeBron did. Yeah, I think LeBron is greater, but that's not going to stop me from acknowledging how great Jordan is. I know this is hard to imagine... but both things can be true.

Also, presenting statistics and metrics which rely on longevity? You don't even have the basic crux of my pro LeBron arguments right. In fact, are you confusing me with someone else?

And if you caught me out on a late night post LeBron still joined a top 5 player twice as you couldn’t dispute, despite declaring victory for yourself as is your wont when losing an argument.

Now you're trying to justify your "LeBron joined up with three top five players" blunder by claiming it was late when you posted that? And even then, that isn't even the original reason you gave me.

Not to mention, even if we go along with you moving your goal posts and changing it to two players, you'd still be wrong. LeBron didn't join up with AD, AD was traded to his team. Again, living in reality will help you.

As I said in a further pos, on the other occasion when he rejoined the Cavs he joined a guy who had been a number one draft pick, who was already seen as a franchise level player and who had already been a dual all star without him as well as MVP of a FIBA world championship, and of an all star game for that matter which I said I considered less relevant, at a time when the Cavs just happened to have another number 1 pick who could be traded for another franchise player. It was also when LeBron had become a Free Agent so I had no problem with that, just with his partisans such as you claiming he somehow took a hard path.

We're going to stop here before we continue just so I can point out how irrelevant all of this is. Irving was in fact considered a franchise player and this isn't really up for debate, but he also was seen as being unable to function as the number one option on a team. He led Cleveland to three straight seasons with less than 30 seasons, including the third one which was considered well below expectations for the team considering the talent going into it. Now, unlike most people who try to hold this against the Heat, this isn't all Irving's fault. Bynum did not pan out the way Cleveland had hoped, people unfairly blamed Irving for Waiters not living up to his draft potential (which, if I'm being fair here, was 50/50 at best, but there's a reason Waiters didn't last long in the league), and Jarrett Jack did not turn out the way the Cavaliers had hoped. And don't even get me started on the injuries. And then of course, there's bringing back Mike Brown to coach the team, who I have always said was an overrated coach even after his time in Sacramento.

As I just said before, Irving deserves some blame but I will say this... Irving was not meant to be your main piece. He was always best as a supporting player and that will always be the role he is best meant for. I don't think you can say that about Curry, Pippen, or Wade.

I don’t see his intent as different than KD’s

And this right here is why I stopped bothering with you. Multiple people apart from me did everything we could to explain it to you. We stopped trying because we realized we were wasting our time. Which leads me into the next part I'm going to address because I'm not bothering with the rest...

You do btw like proving the points of your opponents, resorting to argumentum ad hominem again when challenged as another poster noted.

I don't do this when challenged, I do it when I realize proving you wrong isn't going to cut it. As mentioned before, even when clearly explaining the clear differences in two situations, you resorted to just repeating yourself. What other choice do I have at that point? I guess I could just walk away... oh wait, I did, after it became clear I was wasting my time. I guess that's the issue at hand here, right? I'm not being a nice guy in this situation, which I won't really have any issue acknowledging. I won't have any problem acknowledging that I'm a pro LeBron guy either. But don't dare try to claim I have an agenda here... or, if you do, try to at least describe my arguments correctly next time.