Ben Simmons Containment Thread Take 3

[NYG]

Sabonis to Toronto

LeVert, Dragic, Boucher and tons of picks/swaps via Indiana and Toronto to Philly

Simmons and Maxey to Indy

Why is it that Maxey is always the "chaser" in these deals?

No reason to include him and any of these deals.

Yeah I was being lazy on making it work cap wise. I'll edit it to Paul Reed and Isaiah Joe

[NYG]

How many picks gets Toronto from Dragic and Boucher to Sabonis?

How many picks get Indiana from LeVert and Sabonis to Simmons?

[Godaddycurse]

How many picks get Indiana from LeVert and Sabonis to Simmons?

i have sabonis worth as much if not more than simmons

[Godaddycurse]

I think Simmons>OG and a higher talent, but i also think the gap comes from the defensive side, where OG is very good but Simmons is probably the best perimeter defender in the league. I honestly think theyre pretty close offensively, where you have Simmons handling/playmaking vs OG's shooting. I dont see a big gap there

Like ive been saying for a while, OG is a 'role player' who averages more ppg than the 'star' Simmons. Thats just crazy

As i said before, on court once you reach the last 5 minutes of a close (play-off) game is when Simmons' value craters offensively. At that point you can't rely on Simmons w/ the ball in his hands and without it he is kind of useless on offense.

OG's offense was getting better as the year went on. I think he will continue to grow his game there, especially with more touches available w/ lowry gone and siakam injured to start the year.

[zimpy27]

I think Simmons>OG and a higher talent, but i also think the gap comes from the defensive side, where OG is very good but Simmons is probably the best perimeter defender in the league. I honestly think theyre pretty close offensively, where you have Simmons handling/playmaking vs OG's shooting. I dont see a big gap there

Like ive been saying for a while, OG is a 'role player' who averages more ppg than the 'star' Simmons. Thats just crazy

As i said before, on court once you reach the last 5 minutes of a close (play-off) game is when Simmons' value craters offensively. At that point you can't rely on Simmons w/ the ball in his hands and without it he is kind of useless on offense.

You can once he's in a different situation where they have plans for him down the stretch. He's not as useless as the system makes him useless down the stretch

[Godaddycurse]

I think Simmons>OG and a higher talent, but i also think the gap comes from the defensive side, where OG is very good but Simmons is probably the best perimeter defender in the league. I honestly think theyre pretty close offensively, where you have Simmons handling/playmaking vs OG's shooting. I dont see a big gap there

Like ive been saying for a while, OG is a 'role player' who averages more ppg than the 'star' Simmons. Thats just crazy

As i said before, on court once you reach the last 5 minutes of a close (play-off) game is when Simmons' value craters offensively. At that point you can't rely on Simmons w/ the ball in his hands and without it he is kind of useless on offense.

You can once he's in a different situation where they have plans for him down the stretch. He's not as useless as the system makes him useless down the stretch

This assumes he buys in to that. He was still invisible on offense when butler was handling closing duties previously.

[zimpy27]

As i said before, on court once you reach the last 5 minutes of a close (play-off) game is when Simmons' value craters offensively. At that point you can't rely on Simmons w/ the ball in his hands and without it he is kind of useless on offense.

You can once he's in a different situation where they have plans for him down the stretch. He's not as useless as the system makes him useless down the stretch

This assumes he buys in to that. He was still invisible on offense when butler was handling closing duties previously.

That was by design. Butler was annoyed at the inconsistency of the system for himself and for others from my recollection. It was essentially Simmons runs the show and then Butler takes over for final minutes with Embiid. Bad for Bens confidence and bad for Jimmy. I think it was Brown buying into the iso is king idea down the stretch.

This Philly team Simmons has been on is not built for him. You swap him into Giannis role and he's a top 5 player.

[mademan]

You can once he's in a different situation where they have plans for him down the stretch. He's not as useless as the system makes him useless down the stretch

This assumes he buys in to that. He was still invisible on offense when butler was handling closing duties previously.

That was by design. Butler was annoyed at the inconsistency of the system for himself and for others from my recollection. It was essentially Simmons runs the show and then Butler takes over for final minutes with Embiid.

This Philly team Simmons has been on is not built for him. You swap him into Giannis role and he's a top 5 player.

The Giannis role takes aggression tho, which Simmons lacks. You have to be willing to shoot sometimes as the paint will always be packed and you have to, for sure, be a willing FT shooter, which he's not.

Im not sure where you put current Simmons tbh. He's not that bad of a FT shooter that teams could get away with hack-a-Simmons, but they did. I felt like if he was better (or a different similarly talented player), they win in 2019 as they, imo, clearly had the more talented team then as well (and probably a top 5 starting lineup talent wise this decade, tbh).

I dont like writing off players because they can always obv improve, but i dont think you can win a title with current Simmons. He just lowers the ceiling of the team wayy too much and he becomes a target for smart defenses. I dont mind paying for him tho cause he clearly has a high level of talent- 6'10, ball handling with that athleticism is extremely rare- and if you can develop him, thats a steal, but i also see why other fans wouldnt want to get into the Simmons business. It's pretty split on the Raps board

[zimpy27]

This assumes he buys in to that. He was still invisible on offense when butler was handling closing duties previously.

That was by design. Butler was annoyed at the inconsistency of the system for himself and for others from my recollection. It was essentially Simmons runs the show and then Butler takes over for final minutes with Embiid.

This Philly team Simmons has been on is not built for him. You swap him into Giannis role and he's a top 5 player.

The Giannis role takes aggression tho, which Simmons lacks. You have to be willing to shoot sometimes as the paint will always be packed and you have to, for sure, be a willing FT shooter, which he's not.

Im not sure where you put current Simmons tbh. He's not that bad of a FT shooter that teams could get away with hack-a-Simmons, but they did. I felt like if he was better (or a different similarly talented player), they win in 2019 as they, imo, clearly had the more talented team then as well (and probably a top 5 starting lineup talent wise this decade, tbh).

I dont like writing off players because they can always obv improve, but i dont think you can win a title with current Simmons. He just lowers the ceiling of the team wayy too much and he becomes a target for smart defenses. I dont mind paying for him tho cause he clearly has a high level of talent- 6'10, ball handling with that athleticism is extremely rare- and if you can develop him, thats a steal, but i also see why other fans wouldnt want to get into the Simmons business. It's pretty split on the Raps board

Ben wouldn't be as good as Giannis generally. Certainly not in scoring and I don't think they win a title this last season with Ben over Giannis.

I do think Ben would be a triple double machine and DPOY player on the Bucks. He'd be lauded as top 5 or at least top 10. But agree he probably limits them overall until he can build on the aggressiveness.

I think his confidence has been whittled away in Philly. Not a good fit for him.

I think whatever team gets Simmons could get a serious star though. If I was an NBA team I'd try trade for him. He will be better elsewhere next season and he's already considered top 30.

[zimpy27]

Spurs is ideal for Simmons imo. Murray, Poeltl, Vassell, Aminu, picks should be enough for Simmons and Curry

Curry, White, Keldon, Simmons, Landale
Jones, Lonnie, McDermott, Thad, Collins

[mademan]

Spurs is ideal for Simmons imo. Murray, Poeltl, Vassell, Aminu, picks should be enough for Simmons and Curry

Curry, White, Keldon, Simmons, Landale
Jones, Lonnie, McDermott, Thad, Collins

I think Murray/Vassell picks is enough. I'd hold onto Poeltl if only to use him as an asset to trade for a stretch 5. Think Simmons could thrive there

[mademan]

That was by design. Butler was annoyed at the inconsistency of the system for himself and for others from my recollection. It was essentially Simmons runs the show and then Butler takes over for final minutes with Embiid.

This Philly team Simmons has been on is not built for him. You swap him into Giannis role and he's a top 5 player.

The Giannis role takes aggression tho, which Simmons lacks. You have to be willing to shoot sometimes as the paint will always be packed and you have to, for sure, be a willing FT shooter, which he's not.

Im not sure where you put current Simmons tbh. He's not that bad of a FT shooter that teams could get away with hack-a-Simmons, but they did. I felt like if he was better (or a different similarly talented player), they win in 2019 as they, imo, clearly had the more talented team then as well (and probably a top 5 starting lineup talent wise this decade, tbh).

I dont like writing off players because they can always obv improve, but i dont think you can win a title with current Simmons. He just lowers the ceiling of the team wayy too much and he becomes a target for smart defenses. I dont mind paying for him tho cause he clearly has a high level of talent- 6'10, ball handling with that athleticism is extremely rare- and if you can develop him, thats a steal, but i also see why other fans wouldnt want to get into the Simmons business. It's pretty split on the Raps board

Ben wouldn't be as good as Giannis generally. Certainly not in scoring and I don't think they win a title this last season with Ben over Giannis.

I do think Ben would be a triple double machine and DPOY player on the Bucks. He'd be lauded as top 5 or at least top 10. But agree he probably limits them overall until he can build on the aggressiveness.

I think his confidence has been whittled away in Philly. Not a good fit for him.

I think whatever team gets Simmons could get a serious star though. If I was an NBA team I'd try trade for him. He will be better elsewhere next season and he's already considered top 30.

I agree. Like i said, im in the 'trade for Simmons' camp on the Raps board. Im one of the very few who would give up OG for him tho, and it's not because i think he's significantly better than OG today, but that he has a high talent level and getting a guy like that relatively cheaply (if it's only OG and scraps/filler) is a play you should always make.

[zimpy27]

The Giannis role takes aggression tho, which Simmons lacks. You have to be willing to shoot sometimes as the paint will always be packed and you have to, for sure, be a willing FT shooter, which he's not.

Im not sure where you put current Simmons tbh. He's not that bad of a FT shooter that teams could get away with hack-a-Simmons, but they did. I felt like if he was better (or a different similarly talented player), they win in 2019 as they, imo, clearly had the more talented team then as well (and probably a top 5 starting lineup talent wise this decade, tbh).

I dont like writing off players because they can always obv improve, but i dont think you can win a title with current Simmons. He just lowers the ceiling of the team wayy too much and he becomes a target for smart defenses. I dont mind paying for him tho cause he clearly has a high level of talent- 6'10, ball handling with that athleticism is extremely rare- and if you can develop him, thats a steal, but i also see why other fans wouldnt want to get into the Simmons business. It's pretty split on the Raps board

Ben wouldn't be as good as Giannis generally. Certainly not in scoring and I don't think they win a title this last season with Ben over Giannis.

I do think Ben would be a triple double machine and DPOY player on the Bucks. He'd be lauded as top 5 or at least top 10. But agree he probably limits them overall until he can build on the aggressiveness.

I think his confidence has been whittled away in Philly. Not a good fit for him.

I think whatever team gets Simmons could get a serious star though. If I was an NBA team I'd try trade for him. He will be better elsewhere next season and he's already considered top 30.

I agree. Like i said, im in the 'trade for Simmons' camp on the Raps board. Im one of the very few who would give up OG for him tho, and it's not because i think he's significantly better than OG today, but that he has a high talent level and getting a guy like that relatively cheaply (if it's only OG and scraps/filler) is a play you should always make.

I had Raps very high pre-draft but felt the pick of Barnes threw me off that a bit.

Could they trade Barnes+OG for Simmons+something?

[Tomjas]

As i said before, on court once you reach the last 5 minutes of a close (play-off) game is when Simmons' value craters offensively. At that point you can't rely on Simmons w/ the ball in his hands and without it he is kind of useless on offense.

You can once he's in a different situation where they have plans for him down the stretch. He's not as useless as the system makes him useless down the stretch

This assumes he buys in to that. He was still invisible on offense when butler was handling closing duties previously.

Jimmy was a hopeless ball handler on the Sixers

[Bornstellar]

Spurs is ideal for Simmons imo. Murray, Poeltl, Vassell, Aminu, picks should be enough for Simmons and Curry

Curry, White, Keldon, Simmons, Landale
Jones, Lonnie, McDermott, Thad, Collins

I'd swap Poeltl for Young but other otherwise I would do this all day. Really have no idea what Landale brings at this point and Eubanks is not a starting level player so I'd rather keep Jak if we're not getting a real big in return (plus, why would Philly want 3 rotational Cs?). I think it actually helps both teams though.

[zimpy27]

Spurs is ideal for Simmons imo. Murray, Poeltl, Vassell, Aminu, picks should be enough for Simmons and Curry

Curry, White, Keldon, Simmons, Landale
Jones, Lonnie, McDermott, Thad, Collins

I'd swap Poeltl for Young but other otherwise I would do this all day. Really have no idea what Landale brings at this point and Eubanks is not a starting level player so I'd rather keep Jak if we're not getting a real big in return (plus, why would Philly want 3 rotational Cs?). I think it actually helps both teams though.

Oh yeah I never intended Poeltl to go to sixers.

Poeltl, Aminu to Raptors
Dragic, Murray, Vassell to Philly
Boucher, Simmons to Spurs

Could even have Vassell going to Raptors and Philly gets FVV instead of Dragic. So Simmons for FVV and Murray. I know Masai loves wings.

[tidho]

The idea behind this trade is to get Beal some all-star support and lock him into a contract extension.

I'll preface this trade by saying this can't be done today as KCP & Kuzma can't be traded until the 14th.

Philly
In - Kuzma, KCP, Sexton, 25 FRP, 25' 2RP
Out - Simmons

Cleveland
In - Hachimura Kispert, Avdija
Out - Sexton, 25' 2RP

Wizards
In - Simmons, Dotson
Out - Hachimura, Kispert, Kuzma, Avdija, KCP, 25 FRP

- The Sixers move on from a distressed asset whilst adding two rotation pieces and a young Point Guard.
- Cleveland get two young wings which they lack currently and no longer have to worry about paying Sexton
- The Wizards get Beal some help, ultimately to get him to sign a new contract'

Thoughts?

Edit - Based on feedback I've removed Hachimura and added Kispert instead

this isn't too bad for CLE. not sure if the team would do it or not.

PHI probably reasonably what they should expect, and i think its a really good idea for WAS.

note: Dotson is also 'out' for CLE, but doesn't change the equation for CLE.

[stormi]

I think Simmons>OG and a higher talent, but i also think the gap comes from the defensive side, where OG is very good but Simmons is probably the best perimeter defender in the league. I honestly think theyre pretty close offensively, where you have Simmons handling/playmaking vs OG's shooting. I dont see a big gap there

Like ive been saying for a while, OG is a 'role player' who averages more ppg than the 'star' Simmons. Thats just crazy

As i said before, on court once you reach the last 5 minutes of a close (play-off) game is when Simmons' value craters offensively. At that point you can't rely on Simmons w/ the ball in his hands and without it he is kind of useless on offense.

You can once he's in a different situation where they have plans for him down the stretch. He's not as useless as the system makes him useless down the stretch

^

Ben is a lead ballhandler in transition, but out of the halfcourt he's a screen & roll big + slasher. His value is maximized alongside a playmaking guard.

[stormi]

Like ive been saying for a while, OG is a 'role player' who averages more ppg than the 'star' Simmons. Thats just crazy

Ben isn't a 'star' because of ppg, nor is it an accurate way to evaluate the amount of offense he creates relative to someone like Anunoby.

Read on Twitter

Ben is an offensive engine. He doesn't shoot 3's but he generates a tremendous amount of them for his team. His ability to create mismatches and open up looks for his shooters in transition and out of drive + kick is second to none. If he scores around his career average while passing the way he can, his impact far exceeds that of the above-average 3&D wing.

[Sportfan73]

As i said before, on court once you reach the last 5 minutes of a close (play-off) game is when Simmons' value craters offensively. At that point you can't rely on Simmons w/ the ball in his hands and without it he is kind of useless on offense.

You can once he's in a different situation where they have plans for him down the stretch. He's not as useless as the system makes him useless down the stretch

^

Ben is a lead ballhandler in transition, but out of the halfcourt he's a screen & roll big + slasher. His value is maximized alongside a playmaking guard.

Cavs minus Allen is actually a terrific destination for him.