Official Summer 2024 Magic Free Agency and Trade Ideas Thread 8.0: A Forum Divided

[eyriq]

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[p0peye]

Cole really needs to improve his shooting efficiency to make it with us.

He ain't on a max contract. He does enough as bench scorer, about what he is paid. Improved or not, he could be easily packaged in any trade, no questions asked. Or he could just as easily stay here without any issue.

He was nearly unplayable in the playoffs, I don't think his current level of performance is sustainable.

I was thinking about regular season and agree that he had atrocious performance in that series. Maybe we have different expectations for a MLE player. That is Brandon Bass territory, we are talking about 20+ MPG role player.

[eyriq]

He ain't on a max contract. He does enough as bench scorer, about what he is paid. Improved or not, he could be easily packaged in any trade, no questions asked. Or he could just as easily stay here without any issue.

He was nearly unplayable in the playoffs, I don't think his current level of performance is sustainable.

I was thinking about regular season and agree that he had atrocious performance in that series. Maybe we have different expectations for a MLE player. That is Brandon Bass territory, we are talking about 20+ MPG role player.

I've got MLE players as 6-7 men in the new CBA. It's close to 9% of the cap.

[p0peye]

He was nearly unplayable in the playoffs, I don't think his current level of performance is sustainable.

I was thinking about regular season and agree that he had atrocious performance in that series. Maybe we have different expectations for a MLE player. That is Brandon Bass territory, we are talking about 20+ MPG role player.

I've got MLE players as 6-7 men in the new CBA. It's close to 9% of the cap.

Exactly, those players come off the bench and are paid like that because they are inconsistent per definition. If we are to become contender, at least one of Paolo or Franz need to be in that General board thread here on RealGM voted as top 10 players in NBA with other being in top 25. Cole is no MPJ, he's bound to earn that money he gets paid.

[OrlChamps2030]

I was thinking about regular season and agree that he had atrocious performance in that series. Maybe we have different expectations for a MLE player. That is Brandon Bass territory, we are talking about 20+ MPG role player.

I've got MLE players as 6-7 men in the new CBA. It's close to 9% of the cap.

Exactly, those players come off the bench and are paid like that because they are inconsistent per definition. If we are to become contender, at least one of Paolo or Franz need to be in that General board thread here on RealGM voted as top 10 players in NBA with other being in top 25. Cole is no MPJ, he's bound to earn that money he gets paid.

Sorry but no, Cole didn’t play up to the level of his new deal last season.

Hopefully he improves this season.. after that playoff performance the only way is up from here

[anothermagicfan]

I got a few thoughts regarding the last few pages of this thread.

1st-I gotta disagree with knightro about Cole playing over AB. You could very well be right that Cole is in the rotation still. I believe that AB is already a better player than Cole.

AB is part of the north star. Cole not so much. I am on record earlier saying I do think Cole will play early on to increase trade value but upon further thought I don't know if he can. He is the on the court player he is.

2nd- eyeriq and JP- I'm also very much down with the AB truthtellers. Kids got game. I only question his ability to be a traditional PG.

3rd- here's my take on what I believe is the strongest 15 man depth chart. I'll explain the 10 man rotation id like to see most.

Suggs/AB/Joseph
KCP/Harris/Cole/Caleb
Franz/TDS/Jett/Caleb
PB/JI/Moe
WCJ/Moe/Goga

As for the 10 man rotation specifically

Suggs/AB
KCP/Harris
Franz/TDS
PB/JI
WCJ/Moe

The staggering for me would be Harris as the first sub in for KCP. He brings continuity with the starters while still giving good defense and and good 3 point shooting and doesn't take the ball out of PB and Franz hands.

KCP earns his paycheck and brings a vet steady presence spending time playing with the second unit.

AB/KCP/TDS/JI/Moe

That's some youth mixed with some experience. 3 really good defenders, a rookie and Moe. I don't think this second unit would even miss old man Ingles. They'd create turnovers and get points in transition. They can all shoot the 3. Not exceptionally well but good enough to honor. There's no Fultz shooters in this lineup!

So who's that leave for garbage time or injury fill ins

Joseph/Cole/Jett/Caleb/Goga. That alone could be the bench on tanking teams.

[eyriq]

Jett showing some playmaking chops?

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[RichCollab]

Here is where I’m at to start the season.

Suggs / Black
KCP / Cole / Jett
Franz / TDS / Harris
Paolo / JI
WCJ / Moe

Caleb and Goga only see time if they’re injuries.

Corey likely only ever sees garbage time.

Cole starts the season on the 2nd unit over Harris because the 2nd unit needs more creation.

[DiplomaticMagic]

Wow Zach Lowe on his latest podcast was talking about the difference between Paolo and Scottie Barnes is miniscule. And the guest said that he rather have Barnes on his team.

What a joke!!!

[GelbeWand09]

honest question, what have you seen from Huff that you havent from Goga?

A 3 point shot, running the length of the court WITH the ball for a dunk.

why does everyone fixate on a center having to have a 3 pt shot. Hartenstein did pretty well for NY without one. so did Dallas' centers.

3point shooting Center is a gimmick in most cases. When you aren't taking nearly as many 3s as KAT or a % like Chet, nobody guards you. Vuc lead the NBA for years in wide open 3 point attempts.

[GelbeWand09]

Paolo is going to make a HUGE jump in 3 point shooting this year. You can hold me to that.

I'm less optimistic about Franz because he plays for the national team again. As a German its great to have him there as a Magic fan it's meh. Players skills improve in the off-season.

[pepe1991]

Wow Zach Lowe on his latest podcast was talking about the difference between Paolo and Scottie Barnes is miniscule. And the guest said that he rather have Barnes on his team.

What a joke!!!

It's bit tricky.
If you line up their stats, what execlly Paolo does better?

He averages 1,9 FGA more to put up 2,7 ppg more.
Scottie is better rebounder.
Scottie is better playmaker.
Scottie is better on ball defender.
Scottie is better off ball defender.
Scottie has way more blocks & steals.
Scottie has less turnovers on more assists.
Scottie has higher FG%
Scottie has higher 3%
Scottie is better FT shooter
Scottie has higher eFG, higher TS
Scottie's RPM is x2 of Paolo's.


Paolo has better gravity and is better scorer, but goes without saying that Paolo needs to be way better in efficiency to be considered uber- elite player and be worthy of his +30% usage.
Paolo had nice playoffs where he was best Magic player on offense, but in same time he only started playing well when Mobley was no longer on him as Cavs had to switch Mobley to C, had nobody at PF so out of nowhere Paolo was guarded by 6'4- 6'5
Okoro and deep bench players like Morris twin, Tristan Thompson etc.
While guarded by mostly Mobley, in first two games ,he shot 3-11 for 3 and had 8 assists on 15 turnovers. He also shot really well for rest of series for 3% and especially good from long mid range, not shots that normally translate well into good efficiency for longer period of time.

Next year will be interesting to see how he improves.

[drsd]

There's lots of interesting subplots to determining our rotation.

The starting unit doesn't need a primary playmaker because Franz and Paulo share playmaking duties.

The bench unit either needs a primary playmaker which we don't have on the roster or will also need to share playmaking duties because Cole is not a primary playmaker.

Hence, Black is an obvious person to plug into the rotation.

Suggs also has playmaking upside, and can share playmaking duties, so I expect that two of Franz, Paolo, Cole, AB, and Suggs will always need to be on the court.

Jett Howard's path to playing time is not at all clear to me. As a three-point specialist, he's going to rely on other playmakers. An all bench lineup with him in it doesn't really work in my mind.

He would actually make a bit more sense as a starter than a bench player, but there's still a big unknown around his ability to defend.

And-1

As to the bench, it will be interesting to see how Black/Anthony/Harris/Isaac/M-Wagner play together. By the eye-test, there is a balance of scoring and defense. We will see.

[drsd]

Here is where I’m at to start the season.

Suggs / Black
KCP / Cole / Jett
Franz / TDS / Harris
Paolo / JI
WCJ / Moe

Caleb and Goga only see time if they’re injuries.

Corey likely only ever sees garbage time.

Cole starts the season on the 2nd unit over Harris because the 2nd unit needs more creation.

Almost: Just flip Harris and da Silva, and accept that Howard and da Silva will not be major contributors most games, and then you have the 10-man rotation up top. (teams don't use 12 men, usually)

[zaymon]

I got a few thoughts regarding the last few pages of this thread.

1st-I gotta disagree with knightro about Cole playing over AB. You could very well be right that Cole is in the rotation still. I believe that AB is already a better player than Cole.

AB is part of the north star. Cole not so much. I am on record earlier saying I do think Cole will play early on to increase trade value but upon further thought I don't know if he can. He is the on the court player he is.

2nd- eyeriq and JP- I'm also very much down with the AB truthtellers. Kids got game. I only question his ability to be a traditional PG.

3rd- here's my take on what I believe is the strongest 15 man depth chart. I'll explain the 10 man rotation id like to see most.

Suggs/AB/Joseph
KCP/Harris/Cole/Caleb
Franz/TDS/Jett/Caleb
PB/JI/Moe
WCJ/Moe/Goga

As for the 10 man rotation specifically

Suggs/AB
KCP/Harris
Franz/TDS
PB/JI
WCJ/Moe

The staggering for me would be Harris as the first sub in for KCP. He brings continuity with the starters while still giving good defense and and good 3 point shooting and doesn't take the ball out of PB and Franz hands.

KCP earns his paycheck and brings a vet steady presence spending time playing with the second unit.

AB/KCP/TDS/JI/Moe

That's some youth mixed with some experience. 3 really good defenders, a rookie and Moe. I don't think this second unit would even miss old man Ingles. They'd create turnovers and get points in transition. They can all shoot the 3. Not exceptionally well but good enough to honor. There's no Fultz shooters in this lineup!

So who's that leave for garbage time or injury fill ins

Joseph/Cole/Jett/Caleb/Goga. That alone could be the bench on tanking teams.

The discussion is weird. Some posters act like Cole Anthony should play becouse he is better than competition and coach prefers veterans.
Coach showed many times he will play talent over age (Franz, Jalen, Paolo).
Cole Anthony played so awful last season that i am very sceptical if he is even better than Anthony Black right now. If we can play younger player and better at the same time is it really that difficult decision ? Fultz at least had some size, and AB was a rookie. There is even less argument about Cole and Black.
I am propably the biggest Gary Harris fan out here but i am not sure if he plays above Jett.
Howard gives us more versatile shooting, midrange scoring and some passing.

[anothermagicfan]

I got a few thoughts regarding the last few pages of this thread.

1st-I gotta disagree with knightro about Cole playing over AB. You could very well be right that Cole is in the rotation still. I believe that AB is already a better player than Cole.

AB is part of the north star. Cole not so much. I am on record earlier saying I do think Cole will play early on to increase trade value but upon further thought I don't know if he can. He is the on the court player he is.

2nd- eyeriq and JP- I'm also very much down with the AB truthtellers. Kids got game. I only question his ability to be a traditional PG.

3rd- here's my take on what I believe is the strongest 15 man depth chart. I'll explain the 10 man rotation id like to see most.

Suggs/AB/Joseph
KCP/Harris/Cole/Caleb
Franz/TDS/Jett/Caleb
PB/JI/Moe
WCJ/Moe/Goga

As for the 10 man rotation specifically

Suggs/AB
KCP/Harris
Franz/TDS
PB/JI
WCJ/Moe

The staggering for me would be Harris as the first sub in for KCP. He brings continuity with the starters while still giving good defense and and good 3 point shooting and doesn't take the ball out of PB and Franz hands.

KCP earns his paycheck and brings a vet steady presence spending time playing with the second unit.

AB/KCP/TDS/JI/Moe

That's some youth mixed with some experience. 3 really good defenders, a rookie and Moe. I don't think this second unit would even miss old man Ingles. They'd create turnovers and get points in transition. They can all shoot the 3. Not exceptionally well but good enough to honor. There's no Fultz shooters in this lineup!

So who's that leave for garbage time or injury fill ins

Joseph/Cole/Jett/Caleb/Goga. That alone could be the bench on tanking teams.

The discussion is weird. Some posters act like Cole Anthony should play becouse he is better than competition and coach prefers veterans.
Coach showed many times he will play talent over age (Franz, Jalen, Paolo).
Cole Anthony played so awful last season that i am very sceptical if he is even better than Anthony Black right now. If we can play younger player and better at the same time is it really that difficult decision ? Fultz at least had some size, and AB was a rookie. There is even less argument about Cole and Black.
I am propably the biggest Gary Harris fan out here but i am not sure if he plays above Jett.
Howard gives us more versatile shooting, midrange scoring and some passing.

I looked briefly at Gary mpg throughout his career. With the exception of his rookie season he has averaged generally around 28-30 mpg almost every year. His minutes have dropped slightly in the last few years. Even last season he averaged exactly 24 mpg. That's half the game or more of on the court time.

Compared to Cole who in his 4th season has seen his minutes drop to 22 mpg. Another way to say that is he spends more minutes on the bench than on the court. This is also in his healthiest season with playing 81 games.

I can't guarantee what the rotation or minutes looks like. I'll say this though-any thought that Cole gets significant minutes and Gary is 3rd string is insanely wild to me.

Everybody knows Coles game. No defense and can get hot and be streaky shooter. Gary game is really good defense and shoots the 3 consistently higher throughout his career than Cole has.

[eyriq]

Wow Zach Lowe on his latest podcast was talking about the difference between Paolo and Scottie Barnes is miniscule. And the guest said that he rather have Barnes on his team.

What a joke!!!

It's bit tricky.
If you line up their stats, what execlly Paolo does better?

He averages 1,9 FGA more to put up 2,7 ppg more.
Scottie is better rebounder.
Scottie is better playmaker.
Scottie is better on ball defender.
Scottie is better off ball defender.
Scottie has way more blocks & steals.
Scottie has less turnovers on more assists.
Scottie has higher FG%
Scottie has higher 3%
Scottie is better FT shooter
Scottie has higher eFG, higher TS
Scottie's RPM is x2 of Paolo's.


Paolo has better gravity and is better scorer, but goes without saying that Paolo needs to be way better in efficiency to be considered uber- elite player and be worthy of his +30% usage.
Paolo had nice playoffs where he was best Magic player on offense, but in same time he only started playing well when Mobley was no longer on him as Cavs had to switch Mobley to C, had nobody at PF so out of nowhere Paolo was guarded by 6'4- 6'5
Okoro and deep bench players like Morris twin, Tristan Thompson etc.
While guarded by mostly Mobley, in first two games ,he shot 3-11 for 3 and had 8 assists on 15 turnovers. He also shot really well for rest of series for 3% and especially good from long mid range, not shots that normally translate well into good efficiency for longer period of time.

Next year will be interesting to see how he improves.

This comparison literally should start and end with "Paolo is the #1 option on a playoff team while Barnes couldn't win with Siakam, FVV, and OG".

There is no evidence that Barnes is a franchise player and overwhelming evidence that Paolo is.

Within the context of team success and failure you can then ask why Barnes looks so comparable on paper, without the results to show for it.

[yoyojw17]

There's lots of interesting subplots to determining our rotation.

The starting unit doesn't need a primary playmaker because Franz and Paulo share playmaking duties.

The bench unit either needs a primary playmaker which we don't have on the roster or will also need to share playmaking duties because Cole is not a primary playmaker.

Hence, Black is an obvious person to plug into the rotation.

Suggs also has playmaking upside, and can share playmaking duties, so I expect that two of Franz, Paolo, Cole, AB, and Suggs will always need to be on the court.

Jett Howard's path to playing time is not at all clear to me. As a three-point specialist, he's going to rely on other playmakers. An all bench lineup with him in it doesn't really work in my mind.

He would actually make a bit more sense as a starter than a bench player, but there's still a big unknown around his ability to defend.

And-1

As to the bench, it will be interesting to see how Black/Anthony/Harris/Isaac/M-Wagner play together. By the eye-test, there is a balance of scoring and defense. We will see.

I think you can slot Howard into the ... Emerging playmaker slot. I've loved what I've seen of him.... He's not going to be a pound the ball into the ground ... And he's far from Caleb Houston. But he has definitely shown the ability to play off within the flow of the offense... And get people shots.

This is one of the pleasures of having multiple high IQ players.

[jonbob17]

Wow Zach Lowe on his latest podcast was talking about the difference between Paolo and Scottie Barnes is miniscule. And the guest said that he rather have Barnes on his team.

What a joke!!!

I mean Barnes is good. But there is so much left for both guys to figure out, too early to make that call. I’d rather have Paolo, just because I think it’s easier to see the offense translating, but he’s not there yet, and he’s going to have to be more Lebron or Jokic Lite rather than Julius Randle. Paolo is way ahead of Randle’s timeline…fwiw…

I’d say both guys have top 5 upside, and both have pretty low floors too if the efficiency doesn’t get better. I’d assume life gets easier for both as the talent around them improves.

If I had to guess, I’d say both guy end up as top 20 nba players, but giving the edge to Paolo making a 1st team all nba….eventually

[GelbeWand09]

Wow Zach Lowe on his latest podcast was talking about the difference between Paolo and Scottie Barnes is miniscule. And the guest said that he rather have Barnes on his team.

What a joke!!!

It's bit tricky.
If you line up their stats, what execlly Paolo does better?

He averages 1,9 FGA more to put up 2,7 ppg more.
Scottie is better rebounder.
Scottie is better playmaker.
Scottie is better on ball defender.
Scottie is better off ball defender.
Scottie has way more blocks & steals.
Scottie has less turnovers on more assists.
Scottie has higher FG%
Scottie has higher 3%
Scottie is better FT shooter
Scottie has higher eFG, higher TS
Scottie's RPM is x2 of Paolo's.


Paolo has better gravity and is better scorer, but goes without saying that Paolo needs to be way better in efficiency to be considered uber- elite player and be worthy of his +30% usage.
Paolo had nice playoffs where he was best Magic player on offense, but in same time he only started playing well when Mobley was no longer on him as Cavs had to switch Mobley to C, had nobody at PF so out of nowhere Paolo was guarded by 6'4- 6'5
Okoro and deep bench players like Morris twin, Tristan Thompson etc.
While guarded by mostly Mobley, in first two games ,he shot 3-11 for 3 and had 8 assists on 15 turnovers. He also shot really well for rest of series for 3% and especially good from long mid range, not shots that normally translate well into good efficiency for longer period of time.

Next year will be interesting to see how he improves.

This comparison literally should start and end with "Paolo is the #1 option on a playoff team while Barnes couldn't win with Siakam, FVV, and OG".

There is no evidence that Barnes is a franchise player and overwhelming evidence that Paolo is.

Within the context of team success and failure you can then ask why Barnes looks so comparable on paper, without the results to show for it.

He is no franchise player 1st option because his offense are fastbreaks, putbacks, torture smaller guys in the post & spot up 3's. He got big trouble driving past a defender. Thats not a receipt for a 1st (or 2nd) option on a contender. But he is a super versatile deluxe roleplayer 3rd option. He is a 2way player unlike Paolo (even if his defense is overrated and worse than Franz because of his footspeed) with even better passing skills.

As long as Paolo is a high volume / low efficiency scorer, the difference between the two isnt big, maybe even in favor for Barnes.
I mean we are a PO team because of the No.2 defense (not much to do with Paolo) & top 5 bench (not much to do with Paolo). Our offense is 22nd and Paolo's 30% usage got a big part of it. Paolo's impact stats confirm this.
Paolo's impact is bigger than those stats show, because he is probably Top 8-10 in the leaque in drawing double/triple teams already + the rim pressure & his upside is higher than Barnes because of his offensive skill set, but as long as he doesnt up his efficiency, he is not much better if at all.