Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving?

[BobbieL]

I see some kind of middle ground compromise where both teams hate it.

Kyrie/shump for bled/Chriss/warren/ Miami 1st

Not for 2-years of Kyrie. You have to take one of the non-Bledsoe assets out for sure.

I think I'd love that deal if I were a Cavs fan. Obviously, I hate it as a Suns fan.

I also find it interesting that while the national media appears not to know who TJ Warren is, fans of other teams throw him into almost every Suns trade compulsively. If he were dealt to a team that had national media interest (like Cleveland), I think the media would go bonkers over him pretty quickly and label him an up-and-comer, a late-bloomer, a potential future all-star. But in Phoenix? He's a nobody.

Dumb.

Right, I am not giving up TWO young forwards AND the HEAT pick for two years of Kyrie.

The Suns do not need to change offers to chase Kyrie: Chriss, Bledsoe, the Heat pick and taking salary to me seems fair. If the Cavs feel Dudley fits better than Shumpert, of course, have no problem adding that piece to the trade as its a wash for me though Dudley does add value on the bench - but think Frye could replace that.

Hopefully for the Suns - the offer of a Bled, young F and Heat pick is enough . Or it isn't but don't panic. Let other teams do that

Understand, the Knicks probably cannot get Kyrie without help
Minnesota - if they aren't offering Wiggins have nothing unless the Cavs really want Teague

there is probably a surprise team out there so just wait and see

I wouldn't mind that four team trade - but Anderson is not going to be easy to move if Houston gets Melo. Can Houston stretch him

[Jarlaxle0204]

If a deal occurs where we don't get Kyrie, I would mostly prefer it to be the Heat who get Kyrie. The Heat really aren't giving up much as I don't feel Winslow and Bam are even on the same tier as Bender/Chriss in terms of potential. But they lose some depth and I would hope that means they struggle to win games and make our 2018 pick slightly better, maybe even that lucky No 13-14 spot in the draft.

While I understand the viewpoint you have here in relationship to next year, I think if Miami gained Kyrie it would hurt the '21 1st round pick we're due which is unprotected and much more important in my eyes. If Kyrie joins the Heat this year he may be able to convince others to join him in South Beach where there also isn't any state income tax. I think that '21 Heat pick is the real prize we should be waiting on.

[RunDogGun]

Yeah, I don't see the point for us to give up much of anything for Irving. The Cavs are the team in the bind, not us. After watching the SL, I'd be fine with giving up Chriss, but not Warren or the Miami pick. My deal would be Bledsoe and Chriss/Miami pick, and that is it. If it doesn't get it done, then play out the season, and try and move Knight next year.

[BobbieL]

Yeah, I don't see the point for us to give up much of anything for Irving. The Cavs are the team in the bind, not us. After watching the SL, I'd be fine with giving up Chriss, but not Warren or the Miami pick. My deal would be Bledsoe and Chriss/Miami pick, and that is it. If it doesn't get it done, then play out the season, and try and move Knight next year.

I think the only reason I am okay with the Heat pick going is I think the Heat make the playoffs - so that means mid-teens and I am not sure the Suns need another rookie player if they add another top 6 pick next year. Now, I don't think Sarver wants to go selling off first rounders willy nilly but for the right player, I am open to it. Even Gambo mentioned during this years draft it was highly unlikely the Suns would add two more rookies next year - meaning either combine the Heat pick with the Suns pick to move up or trade the Heat pick

In no way am I including the pick if the Suns trade Bledsoe and end up with Frank N. Forget that.

As for Warren v Chriss - I agree, I think Warren can be a nice solid rotational player on a very good deal starting next year. He should get more consistent as he plays more and really would be a solid player with Booker, JJ and the other younger players.

But again, if I am the Suns, I try to get Frank N for Bledsoe and help the Knicks get Kyrie - that is the LONG TERM move to make. You keep that top pick next year in a loaded class. You get a point guard who will grow with the rest of the team. That is the move to make. Like this article states - next years class is loaded and if the Suns get Frank N for Bledsoe - they are tanking without tanking as they will be so young - that's the move Ryan - get a top 5 pick next year

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[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Yeah, I don't see the point for us to give up much of anything for Irving. The Cavs are the team in the bind, not us. After watching the SL, I'd be fine with giving up Chriss, but not Warren or the Miami pick. My deal would be Bledsoe and Chriss/Miami pick, and that is it. If it doesn't get it done, then play out the season, and try and move Knight next year.

I'm disinclined to offer either Miami pick. If we need to move up a couple spots to get our guy in next year's draft, that Miami pick may very well be necessary to that.

So no. I'm just not into the idea of Kyrie at all.

[Qwigglez]

If a deal occurs where we don't get Kyrie, I would mostly prefer it to be the Heat who get Kyrie. The Heat really aren't giving up much as I don't feel Winslow and Bam are even on the same tier as Bender/Chriss in terms of potential. But they lose some depth and I would hope that means they struggle to win games and make our 2018 pick slightly better, maybe even that lucky No 13-14 spot in the draft.

While I understand the viewpoint you have here in relationship to next year, I think if Miami gained Kyrie it would hurt the '21 1st round pick we're due which is unprotected and much more important in my eyes. If Kyrie joins the Heat this year he may be able to convince others to join him in South Beach where there also isn't any state income tax. I think that '21 Heat pick is the real prize we should be waiting on.

I think we will eventually trade that pick before it conveys. Maybe even package our pick, and both Heat picks to move into top 3 of the 2018 draft.

[BobbieL]

If a deal occurs where we don't get Kyrie, I would mostly prefer it to be the Heat who get Kyrie. The Heat really aren't giving up much as I don't feel Winslow and Bam are even on the same tier as Bender/Chriss in terms of potential. But they lose some depth and I would hope that means they struggle to win games and make our 2018 pick slightly better, maybe even that lucky No 13-14 spot in the draft.

While I understand the viewpoint you have here in relationship to next year, I think if Miami gained Kyrie it would hurt the '21 1st round pick we're due which is unprotected and much more important in my eyes. If Kyrie joins the Heat this year he may be able to convince others to join him in South Beach where there also isn't any state income tax. I think that '21 Heat pick is the real prize we should be waiting on.

I think we will eventually trade that pick before it conveys. Maybe even package our pick, and both Heat picks to move into top 3 of the 2018 draft.

Very true about the Heat pick. If the Suns do nothing, keep Bledsoe, most likely they are a top 6 team for draft positioning. That Heat pick might be enticing to a team that wants players so is willing to move a spot or two . Seems like for the Suns, Bamba or Ayton would be the pick - but again, never turn down top flight talent. And if Porter, Ancic are that guy, or Bagley, - would be a good problem to have.

[Frank Lee]

At this point.... doing nothing looks like the best route.... right now. Let the season play out... somebody might get hungry for Bled or Chandler.

It would be prudent to get another year of playing these youngsters to really see what we have. Would suck to throw in a kid on a deal and then have him breakout. They are all incredibly cheap for the upcoming year and continuing bargains till re-sign time.

I'd move Bled and a pick for Kyrie. Thats it. Keep the Cheap Children

[jcsunsfan]

I see some kind of middle ground compromise where both teams hate it.

Kyrie/shump for bled/Chriss/warren/ Miami 1st

Not for 2-years of Kyrie. You have to take one of the non-Bledsoe assets out for sure.

Then make the evaluation apples and apples. 2 years of Kyrie for 2 years of Bledsoe, one year of Warren with the option of overpaying him, Chriss on a rookie contract, and a late first round pick.

I would not offer this much, but Bled and Warren both have contract considerations in the trade. That said, there is no rush to make this trade. If there was a better offer out there, Cleveland would have made it already. As we progress toward the season, tensions will increase. Everyone wants to get into this 2018 lottery and I love that McD is standing pat on that.

We can continue without this trade. I would love to see a healthy combo of Bledsoe, Booker, and Jackson. One of the things that appeals to me about the trade though is moving Chriss. I would love to see him go. I am not a fan of his attitude and I believe he is in Bender's way (because Watson seems to prefer Chriss).

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I see some kind of middle ground compromise where both teams hate it.

Kyrie/shump for bled/Chriss/warren/ Miami 1st

Not for 2-years of Kyrie. You have to take one of the non-Bledsoe assets out for sure.

Then make the evaluation apples and apples. 2 years of Kyrie for 2 years of Bledsoe, one year of Warren with the option of overpaying him, Chriss on a rookie contract, and a late first round pick.

I would not offer this much, but Bled and Warren both have contract considerations in the trade.

Interesting that you have reached this conclusion. I don't think this is by any means a given. I actually think we might be in line for a discount.

I see some kind of middle ground compromise where both teams hate it.

Kyrie/shump for bled/Chriss/warren/ Miami 1st

Not for 2-years of Kyrie. You have to take one of the non-Bledsoe assets out for sure.

Then make the evaluation apples and apples. 2 years of Kyrie for 2 years of Bledsoe, one year of Warren with the option of overpaying him, Chriss on a rookie contract, and a late first round pick.

I would not offer this much, but Bled and Warren both have contract considerations in the trade.

I never thought of you as the assuming type, JC.

[mab2039]

See, this is what i find funny. If you deal with damn near any Cav fan on the board, they will tell you that any of our offers made will not get the job done unless it has Jackson and/or our unprotected 2018 pick. Yet you see them saying they would rather do the Miami deal than our deals. Its like LMAO. Bledsoe>>>Dragic (and its no question). They scoff at the idea that Bender or Chriss or Warren is a "Blue Chip Prospect" yet are fine with Winslow, who really hasnt showed much, some would say shown less, was a later pick than Bender or Chriss, and was 2nd team rookie along with Chriss. So how exactly is Chris (or Bender or Warren) trash in their eyes, yet they would be gun-ho about Winslow? Yeah.....

And we keep being told that the Miami pick isnt good enough and it HAS to be our 1st round pick and unprotected. Thats another big ol' LMFAO. Bam? You mean the last pick in the lotto? Why because he was good in Summer league? Shhhhhheeeeeettttt..... We all know that summer league dont mean a damn thing, as players like Goodwin and Banks showed us (and that was just on our team!).

So for them say that the Miami trade blows ours out of the water and they would take that over ours anyday, my words of wisdom are, "Go ahead and take the Miami deal LOL". I think Miami's names just being thrown out there to try to up our offer. I think that pretty much any teams "New and Improved" offer is bs. Cleveland is just gonna play themselves.

First i am not a Cavs fan, Second i never said anything about Phoenix trading JJ or your unprotected pick. Not all players are valued the same way by all teams.You say Irving is not that much of an improvement and yet you are saying Bledsoe>>>Dragic(without any question). I dont follow that logic that much. I will agree that Bledsoe is a little better than dragic because he is younger and a better defender but Dragic is not a slouch either. But what i disagree with you is, Irving is superior to Bledsoe. His playoffs performances speaks for itself.
When i said Cavs might prefer Miami heat because Goran can play offball, he can paly the two guard with Rose on the floor and he is way better 3pt shooter than Bledsoe. And chriss and Bender might not even be able to play that much meaningful minutes come playoff time. Winslow is a far better defender who can help them right now. Bam is not a sure thing, i know that. BTW Josh Jackson isn't a sure thing, you should know that too. All i am saying is Miami gives them a win now players with less future but Winslow is a good prospect to have.

I know/knew you wernt. Just had to vent after reading everywhere how our offer is ****, yet the Miami deal is sooooo much better. Wasnt meant to be combative to your post at all. And i did not say that Irving isnt that much of an improvement over Bledsoe. His Age and offense dictate that he is. And im not saying that Bledsoe is lightyears ahead of Dragic, but Bledsoe has the age advantage (Just like Irving does over him), much better defense, but also outputs better stats (in every CAT minus 3PT).

As for Dragic playing off the ball, yeah, Cleveland isnt going to want that. Trust me, we tried that YEARS ago, it was a failure and and he got so frustrated with it he asked to be traded (so we did).

Dissatisfied with his role on the team, Goran Dragic says he’s made up his mind that he’s leaving the Phoenix Suns, preferably before Thursday’s trade deadline.

If not, he has made it clear there is no way he would re-sign with the team after this season.

As Dragic put it, “I don’t trust them anymore.”

The 28-year-old guard, whose points and assists are down considerably from last season, says he doesn’t like his role of “standing in the corner” and wants to go to a team where he can be a true point guard again.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/basketball/dissatisfied-with-role-dragic-asks-suns-for-trade/article23057147/

I also dont understand when it comes to the youngsters (Blue Chips). The idea is they want one for if (WHEN) Lebron leaves. Warren has experience and is a microwave off the bench. I think out of anyone he would have a role if push came to shove on the contending team. He's played starters minutes at both SF and PF and proves he has what it takes. Hell, Chriss spent the entire season as our starting PF last season. But Winslow? Really? His is a SF through and through. How is he going to "help them right now"? When lebron sits for his 5 minutes per game? And Cmon! Winslow has only started in a total of 23 games in BOTH SEASONS COMBINED! I just dont buy that he is a better "Blue Chip Prospect" than any of the guys that we have been offering.

Im just saying, look at a player comparison of all 4 guys and tell me that Winslow is the best guy : http://bkref.com/tiny/qkhaN
And here's the link if you want to try to use Winslows "Better stats" from his rookie season: http://bkref.com/tiny/kMJNs

You didn't have Lebron on your team years ago when you had dragic, did you? When you have lebron on your team, he can mask lot of the teams weaknesses. Warren is a good blue chip prospect but i dont think Phoenix is offering him, are they? I dont know if you watched Winslow's rookie year but times he was given minutes he was a game changer defensively. And yes he can paly 3 positions very effectively, you can go to the heat board and ask how they value Winslow. He is very much like Josh Jackson as a prospect who can do it all, but i think JJ is a little far ahead offensively. But Winslow showed his defensive prowess right out of the gate which JJ is yet to do.
He is not SF through and through, he is built like a tank. In a small ball he can be played multiple positions and he has got good IQ for the game which Chriss is lacking. Yes i like Winslow better than Chriss or even Bender at the moment because of his defense.

[jcsunsfan]

Not for 2-years of Kyrie. You have to take one of the non-Bledsoe assets out for sure.

Then make the evaluation apples and apples. 2 years of Kyrie for 2 years of Bledsoe, one year of Warren with the option of overpaying him, Chriss on a rookie contract, and a late first round pick.

I would not offer this much, but Bled and Warren both have contract considerations in the trade.

Interesting that you have reached this conclusion. I don't think this is by any means a given. I actually think we might be in line for a discount.

Not for 2-years of Kyrie. You have to take one of the non-Bledsoe assets out for sure.

Then make the evaluation apples and apples. 2 years of Kyrie for 2 years of Bledsoe, one year of Warren with the option of overpaying him, Chriss on a rookie contract, and a late first round pick.

I would not offer this much, but Bled and Warren both have contract considerations in the trade.

I never thought of you as the assuming type, JC.

Does anyone except Durant give hometown discounts anymore? And based upon the close of last year, Miami is looking pretty good. They are also in the east. It seems likely they will be in the playoffs.

[RunDogGun]

Yeah, I don't see the point for us to give up much of anything for Irving. The Cavs are the team in the bind, not us. After watching the SL, I'd be fine with giving up Chriss, but not Warren or the Miami pick. My deal would be Bledsoe and Chriss/Miami pick, and that is it. If it doesn't get it done, then play out the season, and try and move Knight next year.

I'm disinclined to offer either Miami pick. If we need to move up a couple spots to get our guy in next year's draft, that Miami pick may very well be necessary to that.

So no. I'm just not into the idea of Kyrie at all.

I'm not either. If Kyrie was a strong passer, I might be interested, but he really isn't a big improvement from Bledsoe, let alone multiple assets.

[NTB]

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[BobbieL]

Yeah, I don't see the point for us to give up much of anything for Irving. The Cavs are the team in the bind, not us. After watching the SL, I'd be fine with giving up Chriss, but not Warren or the Miami pick. My deal would be Bledsoe and Chriss/Miami pick, and that is it. If it doesn't get it done, then play out the season, and try and move Knight next year.

I'm disinclined to offer either Miami pick. If we need to move up a couple spots to get our guy in next year's draft, that Miami pick may very well be necessary to that.

So no. I'm just not into the idea of Kyrie at all.

I'm not either. If Kyrie was a strong passer, I might be interested, but he really isn't a big improvement from Bledsoe, let alone multiple assets.

whatever it takes to get a top 5 pick - that's the move to make. So if that's moving Bledsoe to get Bamba Ayton, Porter, I am all for that

[TeamTragic]

Did I just see someone arguing over Winslow? You guys are hilarious. Gilbert can go ahead and take that Miami trade he made up in his head.

[Walt_Uoob]

Imagine this scenario: TJ is considered a frontrunner for MIP while at the same time JJ is showing he deserves time and fits better with Booker, but they both work best at the 3 and don't seem to work very well together. What's our best play then?

We could obviously keep them both, plan to match any RFA offer for Warren, and do our best to keep them both happy and productive

We could try to trade TJ at the deadline for something centered on draft picks (Celtics don't need him but getting one of the high picks owed to them would be ideal) and/or prospects.

We could try to trade TJ for an upgrade at another position.

We could trade JJ (seems incredibly unlikely).

What else? What would you do?

[bwgood77]

You didn't have Lebron on your team years ago when you had dragic, did you? When you have lebron on your team, he can mask lot of the teams weaknesses. Warren is a good blue chip prospect but i dont think Phoenix is offering him, are they? I dont know if you watched Winslow's rookie year but times he was given minutes he was a game changer defensively. And yes he can paly 3 positions very effectively, you can go to the heat board and ask how they value Winslow. He is very much like Josh Jackson as a prospect who can do it all, but i think JJ is a little far ahead offensively. But Winslow showed his defensive prowess right out of the gate which JJ is yet to do.
He is not SF through and through, he is built like a tank. In a small ball he can be played multiple positions and he has got good IQ for the game which Chriss is lacking. Yes i like Winslow better than Chriss or even Bender at the moment because of his defense.

Yeah, it's a little too early to make a judgement on Winslow. He only played in 18 games last year. He has shown to be a good passer, rebounder and defender. I don't think you can definitively put Chriss or Bender above him, though I'd rather have Bender personally.

And Bam is as good as the Miami pick. Bledsoe and Dragic are pretty even across the board...almost identical..except at the one thing the Cavs need to compete with GS...3 pt shooting. Dragic much better there and also less injury prone.

[Saberestar]

Imagine this scenario: TJ is considered a frontrunner for MIP while at the same time JJ is showing he deserves time and fits better with Booker, but they both work best at the 3 and don't seem to work very well together. What's our best play then?

We could obviously keep them both, plan to match any RFA offer for Warren, and do our best to keep them both happy and productive

We could try to trade TJ at the deadline for something centered on draft picks (Celtics don't need him but getting one of the high picks owed to them would be ideal) and/or prospects.

We could try to trade TJ for an upgrade at another position.

We could trade JJ (seems incredibly unlikely).

What else? What would you do?

Sign TJ and stay the course.

[bwgood77]

Imagine this scenario: TJ is considered a frontrunner for MIP while at the same time JJ is showing he deserves time and fits better with Booker, but they both work best at the 3 and don't seem to work very well together. What's our best play then?

We could obviously keep them both, plan to match any RFA offer for Warren, and do our best to keep them both happy and productive

We could try to trade TJ at the deadline for something centered on draft picks (Celtics don't need him but getting one of the high picks owed to them would be ideal) and/or prospects.

We could try to trade TJ for an upgrade at another position.

We could trade JJ (seems incredibly unlikely).

What else? What would you do?

Keep them both. We are not in a position where we should be letting talent walk out the door. We are rebuilding through the draft...and just because one of our first lottery picks is about ready to get a second deal, we shouldn't balk. We are not hurting for cap space. You can play them 30 mpg and that's still only 6 mpg together. They are both the type of players where they should seemlessly be able to play with anyone. Now if neither can shoot from 3, spacing would hurt but that's it for those 6 mpg.