LaMelephant: The LaMelo Ball Thread (#2)

[fatlever]

I'm not really interested in tracking back through the thread, but I do feel there has been a lot of "trade LaMelo for whatever we can get" sentiment by more than one poster. My perception could be wrong, because I do remember Giggity's post in particular, so maybe I'm misremembering more than that. I agree it's not fair to stereotype "Hornets fans" though.

Yes, they're certainly have been a lot of posts suggesting we trade him for whatever we can get and move on. I think the majority of people in that situation understand that that's a one step backwards situation.

I think most everyone understands that trading him would make the team worse in the short term (although hard to get much worse). I'm not going to speak totally for giggity, but I assume in his argument that he was implying short-term get worse for the potential of getting better in the long term. Trading Melo, free up spot, maybe get depth pieces, then try to find a more stable point guard at some point in the next year via free agency trade or draft. I dunno.

I don't think that should be reframed as someone arguing that by trading him we immediately get better. But again, I could be wrong on interpreting what he meant by that.

I do think it's very disingenuous to say that Hornets fans in general believe that by trading melo for literally anything we would improve the roster in the short term. I have a hard time believing that's the general sentiment of hornets fans.

I think it's just frustration and exhaustion from four straight years of injuries and certain segment of the fan population is ready to wash their hands and move in a different direction. And I think that's a very valid opinion to have in this situation.

And I can certainly see the other side of the argument that we are better off just waiting and hoping he gets healthy because a healthy melo is by far our best chance at becoming a playoff team in the short term. And because his trade value is in the toilet.

What I don't like is trying to take a very complicated situation and boil it down to a yes no thing. That's frustrating to me.

There is currently no real good path as it stands with melo.

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[yosemiteben]

but yes nobody has said anything close to that....

Just using the words "Dump LaMelo" "if we had a pg who played 75 games a year who wasn't Melo"

So you're responding to one post from one guy?

Stereotyping "Hornets Fans" as a whole because of this one post?

Got it, so it went from and I quote "Literally no one says this, wtf do you keep doing this?" and telling me I am making stuff up and calling me F"ing annoying (yup, read the deleted post). To now me showing one example isn't good enough lol.

There have been several instances when I have called you out for hyperbolizing posts, and you haven't responded, presumably because you acknowledged that was what you were doing. It has been a consistent issue, and yes it's really annoying.

I do see that someone said trade for a PG that can play 75 games (not any player that can play 82 games), so I deleted the post. Should have acknowledged that.

I mean other people have pitched trading
LaMelo for expirings and a lightly protected first.
Trading LaMelo for Jerami Grant and an injured bad Scoot Henderson. - which even the trade board made fun of how bad that deal was for LaMelo.

Case in point. None of those things are "trade Melo for literally anyone that can play 82 games", yet you lump them all together and collectively mock "Hornets Fans" because "they" think this.

[JMAC3]

Yes, I am hyperbolic. The guy who probably posts more data and statistics on the forum to back up opinions.

Not the people where anytime LaMelo gets injured, we go through the same song and dance of assuming he is out the rest of the year before any updates and immediately spin off into we need trade him posts.

but yes I agree there are all different stances in the LaMelo trade discussion.
1. People who think we can trade him for another all-star level player.
2. People who think we can trade him for 30 cents on the dollar and actually improve the team by doing so.
3. People who think we should trade him for whatever we can get and just take a step back and be bad.
4. People who think we can trade him for picks, then turnaround 3 months later and trade for a different star and not rebuild at all.
5. People who think trading LaMelo extends the tank another 2-3 years because the offer will be pick based.


The same subset of outcomes exist in the Miles Bridges spectrum as well.
1. People who hate him, yet think some team will trade us equal value back
2. People who have no idea his value but just want him gone no matter what
3. People who think we could cut him and the team will be better.
4. People who like him and don't mind him staying.
5. People who want to keep him because they know he isn't worth anything in a trade by himself.

I am number 5 in both scenarios, but again I can assure there are tons of Hornets fans who have all these opinions. None listed are based on just 1 persons opinion.

I didn't realize anytime I shared an opinion of "Hornets Nation" everyone had to be in 100% agreeance because that is basically not the case on any topic or player.

[Diop]

It’s cool to have a differing opinion JMAC, it’s annoying to insinuate you’re are smarter/better because of your different opinion.
That’s the sweet spot we all need to aim for, differing opinion without judgement. No one is always right, we’ve seen it in here forever, the best option is posting with facts not emotion. Overly emotional always goes wrong.

[SWedd523]

gentle reminder that the block feature exists

also think it's silly that the block feature exists but it doesn't also block you from them

[Diop]

Block this

Spoiler:

Penis

[amcoolio]

Serious question JMAC

Did it hurt the Hornets at all when we traded Rozier, PJ, and Hayward

[JustBuzzin]

Pray for JMAC

[JMAC3]

It’s cool to have a differing opinion JMAC, it’s annoying to insinuate you’re are smarter/better because of your different opinion.
That’s the sweet spot we all need to aim for, differing opinion without judgement. No one is always right, we’ve seen it in here forever, the best option is posting with facts not emotion. Overly emotional always goes wrong.

I am far from right all the time, can fully admit that. Hornets are even further from being right all the time hence why we are one of the worst teams in the league for past two decades.

Hornets have never had a great coach, never made a great trade, never had a great season. They all deserve to be critiqued pretty consistently. Majority of the moves we have made since new ownership have taken over have been poor or suspect at best, only clear win has been drafting Kon. So we are a solid 1 for about 8.

As far as trades, pretty much all my opinions on trades are based on previous trade history and how teams have operated before and after such trades in similar situations to ours. It isn't that hard to track that kind of thing down.

[JMAC3]

Serious question JMAC

Did it hurt the Hornets at all when we traded Rozier, PJ, and Hayward

Very clearly yes it has hurt us so far and certainly have not helped us at all so far.
Hard to get better when your only moves are drafting new players and trading away players. If you draft a guy top 10, but trade away a key contributor you are basically replacing production, not adding to the roster.

[JMAC3]

Also think that saying "Oh well team is bad with them, how much worse is it without them" is a terrible reason to trade a good player.

Jazz have been bad with Lauri Markannen. They would be bad without him. Doesn't mean that they should just give away because of that.
Doesn't mean Markkanen isn't good or can't make a difference.

Especially when you haven't come close to exhausting all the current options to improve the team.

The team would 100% be better right now with PJ Washington and Mark Williams, that is very obvious.

[yosemiteben]

gentle reminder that the block feature exists

also think it's silly that the block feature exists but it doesn't also block you from them

Unfortunately mods aren't supposed to block, part of the job

[Braggins]

Hayward was completely washed and Rozier was dangling off the edge of the cliff when they were traded. It was right to move off from them when they did. That was also a different time with completely different circumstances. At that point they were in need of a tear down to tank and collect assets. Now they have a core of three really talented recent draft picks with four extra 1st round picks and like 10 extra 2nds. There isn't actually any need to move off LaMelo and he is in a completely different tier of talent compared to Rozier/Hayward and in a completely different phase of his career.

The PJ thing is nuanced. He was someone that I think they should have held onto, but they actually got the kind of value for him that would make you feel good about trading him. The trade seems worse now that Grant has had a catastrophic injury, but they couldnt' have predicted that. I'm not going to knock them for that trade even though Im a huge PJ fan and think they should try to reacquire him at some point if possible.

Before the Mark Williams trade I think the front office for the most part made the right kind of moves for the tear down phase, but that is the easy part of rebuilding (Cho also made some good moves in this phase of his rebuild). What I have a problem with is them trading Mark and then seemingly wanting to continue to extend the tank instead of looking to improve. They haven't shown any signs that they have any vision for how to actually build from this point, but I hope they do something to change my mind.

[fatlever]

Grant Williams getting injured obviously skewed the short term results of the pj for grant trade. That is huge. Grant was very solid for us.

Grant plus a top 2 protected pick for pj was good business. Unfortunately Grant wrecked his knee.

And I liked pj... more than miles.

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[JMAC3]

Gordon Hayward was awful for the Thunder and they still won the trade because we took back a bunch of nothing and they cleared all that cap space that landed them Hartenstein.

I would rather have tried to sign Hartenstein than fiddle around with KJ, Mann, Micic and Bertans

[fatlever]

The same subset of outcomes exist in the Miles Bridges spectrum as well.
5. People who want to keep him because they know he isn't worth anything in a trade by himself.

I am number 5 in both scenarios.

I think there is a 6th option, similar to 5.

People who do not want him on the roster, but understand his 30 million salary is one of the best contracts to use, combined with additional picks, to upgrade a different part of the roster.

I want miles gone by next year. That does not mean I'm going to cut him, stretch his contract, or give him away... unless zero other options are viable.

I would combine miles plus some draft capital to acquire a vet that I felt was a better fit. I'd hope our team of scouts and assistant gms could find some viable options.

But it is entirely possible that he is just so toxic there's 29 other front offices that have him on a do not trade list. Worst case, if there is simply no decent deal, I would accept pennies on the dollar before I brought miles back next season.... if those are my only two options. And if that is still not an option, I would reluctantly bring him back rather than buying out his contract and stretching it. That is the one thing I absolutely would not do, unless he got arrested again (which is probably a 10-20% likelihood at this point, given the incredibly toxic trash love triangle he exists in)

I respect his toughness and availability. I respect that he wants to be here, but I think it's time for both parties to have a change of scenery. I think he is a horrible off court mentor to have around such a young team.

That's just where I am with him. Preferably, use his salary combined with draft capital to add a vet (no idea who atm)

I'm sure there is a percentage of hornets fandom that would outright cut him tomorrow if they had the authority.I am not in that camp. But I 100% do not want him on the roster by the start of next year. There is no amount of analytical and statistical evidence that can change that opinion.




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[JMAC3]

The same subset of outcomes exist in the Miles Bridges spectrum as well.
5. People who want to keep him because they know he isn't worth anything in a trade by himself.

I am number 5 in both scenarios.

I think there is a 6th option, similar to 5.

People who do not want him on the roster, but understand his 30 million salary is one of the best contracts to use, combined with additional picks, to upgrade a different part of the roster.

I want miles gone by next year. That does not mean I'm going to cut him, stretch his contract, or give him away... unless zero other options are viable.

I would combine miles plus some draft capital to acquire a vet that I felt was a better fit. I'd hope our team of scouts and assistant gms could find some viable options.

But it is entirely possible that he is just so toxic there's 29 other front offices that have him on a do not trade list. Worst case, if there is simply no decent deal, I would accept pennies on the dollar before I brought miles back next season.... if those are my only two options. And if that is still not an option, I would reluctantly bring him back rather than buying out his contract and stretching it. That is the one thing I absolutely would not do, unless he got arrested again (which is probably a 10-20% likelihood at this point, given the incredibly toxic trash love triangle he exists in)

I respect his toughness and availability. I respect that he wants to be here, but I think it's time for both parties to have a change of scenery. I think he is a horrible off court mentor to have around such a young team.

That's just where I am with him. Preferably, use his salary combined with draft capital to add a vet (no idea who atm)

I'm sure there is a percentage of hornets fandom that would outright cut him tomorrow if they had the authority.I am not in that camp. But I 100% do not want him on the roster by the start of next year. There is no amount of analytical and statistical evidence that can change that opinion.




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You can say that but also majority of fans don't want to pay what players cost. Miles in a trade where we are attaching a few picks to him is basically just salary filler so the value for the player has to be 90% draft pick driven.

The offers we have gotten for Bridges in the past have been bad contracts + 2nd round picks.

[fatlever]

Correct. He is salary filler with picks being main compensation.

Miles on his own has negative value on his deal because he is a scumbag of a human (and a high probability of future legal and moral complications) which more than negates his on court value at his current cost of 30 mil.

It sucks. Should have cut ties with him that 1st summer and ate the consequences.

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[Braggins]

I agree with Fats. I REALLY want Miles off the team and can't stand the dude, but I still want them to be smart about how they manage him as an asset.

Only thing I would add is that hes on a declining deal and only costs about 23 mil next season fwiw.

[fatlever]

23 mil... forgot about the declining deal.

Miles plus mann plus picks for a steady vet who isnt a scumbag In a very flammable domestic triangle

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