Tank World Order (6.0)

[PhilBlackson]

Its so rare man. Especially in that 13-14 range we would be in. They simply dont jump. Maybe once in a blue moon. But not even then. I don't think its worse to be a playoff team than a late lottery team unless you're always and perpetually in that position. If you're a young team that playoff experience is invaluable and definitely worth being down literally one or 2 spots in the draft. Like we r talking pick 15, its not a discussion to be had at all.

Maybe we make the play in tournament and lose. Who knows. We keep lottery spot, and we also get SOME postseason experience.

I just rhymed off a long list of all-star calibre players (or close to or developing into) in the last decade that were taken in that 10-14 range so that's what most people are weighing...

Give arguably the best scouting department to be in that position to spot those kinds of players that slip into that 10-14 range vs a 1s round exit. What do people think has a greater long term effect??

Why would barely just missing a single post season suddenly throw this franchise into disarray?! lol What would that single post season more (being that we would MORE than likely be in the Playoffs the following year) do different for the team long term?! Maybe they put up a better fight in the 1st round the following year?! Some of you are acting like if the team didn't make the Playoffs this year despite a litany of reasons/excuses between health & covid that suddenly it would "hurt" the winning culture, as if guys like Fred, Pascal, OG are suddenly gonna give up because they didn't make it that single season and the whole thing is shot to hell lol pleeeease. They'll come back just as, if not MORE determined than ever to make it back..

On the flipside, we do stay in the 11-14 range, the elite scouting department does find it's "Booker, Mitchell, LaVine, Thompson" etc before they come off the board (or we fluke into the top 4, not likely but still an actual possibility)...what's better long term?? Took a 1st round beatdown or potentially added another young star for the next near decade and drastically increased the team's ceiling and made the Playoffs the following year?! No one is saying it's a sure thing but given how excellent the scouting department is, it's all about just giving them better ODDS to do so. For some barely missing a Playoffs to in all likelihood be in it the very next season vs a 1st rd beatdown is a small price to pay for would could completely alter the trajectory of the franchise for the next 8 years...

To each their own, we all want the team to reach the same height but yet again it's just a difference in opinion of how we think the team can get there.

No. What im saying is u want to lose in the play in. Thats essentially what u guys are asking for right now with the 13th or 14th lottery odds. The team being better than u thought has brought u to this point of desperation lol. Uve become what uve hated.

"pLaY iN fOr WhAt?"

Yes I gave some rationale of why it would be in the franchise's interest to do so. Unsurprisingly you didn't provide a counter argument because likely you don't have one lol but instead some low brow drivel. Gave you too much credit thinking you could put together a coherent thought.

[DelAbbot]

GO!

Phil we need more of your "1st round curb stomping" rants this year to drum up support for TWO!

[canada_dry]

I just rhymed off a long list of all-star calibre players (or close to or developing into) in the last decade that were taken in that 10-14 range so that's what most people are weighing...

Give arguably the best scouting department to be in that position to spot those kinds of players that slip into that 10-14 range vs a 1s round exit. What do people think has a greater long term effect??

Why would barely just missing a single post season suddenly throw this franchise into disarray?! lol What would that single post season more (being that we would MORE than likely be in the Playoffs the following year) do different for the team long term?! Maybe they put up a better fight in the 1st round the following year?! Some of you are acting like if the team didn't make the Playoffs this year despite a litany of reasons/excuses between health & covid that suddenly it would "hurt" the winning culture, as if guys like Fred, Pascal, OG are suddenly gonna give up because they didn't make it that single season and the whole thing is shot to hell lol pleeeease. They'll come back just as, if not MORE determined than ever to make it back..

On the flipside, we do stay in the 11-14 range, the elite scouting department does find it's "Booker, Mitchell, LaVine, Thompson" etc before they come off the board (or we fluke into the top 4, not likely but still an actual possibility)...what's better long term?? Took a 1st round beatdown or potentially added another young star for the next near decade and drastically increased the team's ceiling and made the Playoffs the following year?! No one is saying it's a sure thing but given how excellent the scouting department is, it's all about just giving them better ODDS to do so. For some barely missing a Playoffs to in all likelihood be in it the very next season vs a 1st rd beatdown is a small price to pay for would could completely alter the trajectory of the franchise for the next 8 years...

To each their own, we all want the team to reach the same height but yet again it's just a difference in opinion of how we think the team can get there.

No. What im saying is u want to lose in the play in. Thats essentially what u guys are asking for right now with the 13th or 14th lottery odds. The team being better than u thought has brought u to this point of desperation lol. Uve become what uve hated.

"pLaY iN fOr WhAt?"

Yes I gave some rationale of why it would be in the franchise's interest to do so. Unsurprisingly you didn't provide a counter argument because likely you don't have one lol but instead some low brow drivel. Gave you too much credit thinking you could put together a coherent thought.

But but... play in for what??

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[NBA Sheady]

Let's repeat this yet again...

NO ONE is saying we need to actually tank (re-read that until it absorbs in and then do it again), no one believes we can bottom out below all the garbage below us in the standings OR that we will/should do that for years on end. That's just some ridiculous drivel that ironically TM posters resort to making these foolish hyperbolic statements that no one is actually saying in order to get attention/response. It's about remaining in the lottery to increase the likelihood of drafting another star young player which happens repeatedly.

We're talking about finishing in the 10-15th seed (with the possibility of moving up in the draft) to being Playoff bound the next season, is that really such a difficult jump to comprehend?!?? lol

I've asked you to explain your plan and you haven't. I will conclude you don't have one.

Ahh the hilarous irony....you see you thought you're bright but you're really not.

It is also a drastic difference now with the Raptors front office situation.

I agree it's different. I agree the difference is indeed drastic. It doesn't change the fact that Americans don't want to live in Canada.

I don't understand what your gripe is about...

It's been repeated over & over & over that NO ONE is saying to tank in perpetuity so can we please stop talking/acting like that's the case?! Scottie isn't going to leave because the Raps preferred to stay out of the Play In during his rookie season lol in order to improve their odds of giving him a star running mate for the next near decade...

Of course if anything that would only help to retain him, believing he has another guy that can help him get over the top and that management will know what to do with the remainder of the roster and then turn some of those other pieces into a 3rd star. That's the hope NOT to tank forever so please some of you guys are whining over and over about things not even being said.

Everyone acknowledges best case scenario be in the back end of the lottery with a good chance of being the 7/8th seed (it's just not preferred). If you have a better plan, spit out and please stop making like anyone is proposing we lose for years on end because it's simply not true.

I literally asked YOU two posts BEFORE YOURS (#1830 vs your post at #1832) what YOUR plan was, so you didn't answer because YOU don't have one you're just here to talk outta your backside while YOU AVOID answering and instead keep presenting more questions so that you don't have to face the fact you literally have no idea what you're going on about, nor do you have anything that resembles a solution but carry on...

As I said to another of your Stank World Order club - I'm not the one advocating for an extreme approach.

On to ignore for you now.

[planetmars]

Then reading comprehension is an issue.

Yes, anyone who doesn't agree with you is failing to comprehend or a bot.

It's quite clearly in the post and like I said earlier, you said that players don't want to play here. That is completely false as we've had no problems re-signing our players over the past decade. Zero problems whatsoever. Ibaka, Demar, Lowry, Pascal, FVV, JV, OG.

Then you moved the goal posts and said "well we can't sign any free agents." Well first of all, that's different to your original statement and secondly, when have we tried? When have we been both an elite team and had cap space. How many free agents did GSW sign before KD? Do you think they sign KD if they didn't have Curry/Dray/Klay? Do you think Aldridge signs with the Spurs if they didn't have the team that they had?

There are about 27 teams in the league that have had problems signing free agents.

When people talk free agency and Raptors it comes in as a negative connotation because since the beginning we've struggled to keep our own "stars". Specifically with guys like Damon, T-Mac, Vince, Davis, and Bosh all wanting out. Not a free agent, but Mourning essentially "retired" so he didn't play here. And then it got compounded when Kawhi left for LAC post championship. Even over the hill Gasol decided to leave Toronto for LA on a vet minimum deal no less.

But we've had plenty of successes too.. and I guess the definition of "star" changes with that success because it changes the narrative. Kyle, DeMar, JV, and Serge all wanted to stay. Fred came back. Norm came back. Pascal and OG came back (although were rookie deals).

But if you want to look at free agency in a negative light.. you can again if you look at guys that weren't originally Raptors. Even under the Masai era it's been more misses than hits. Starting with Carroll. But you can include CoJo, Scola, Miles, McCaw, Stanimal, Rondae, Baynes, Len, and currently Svi.

The only hits may have been Biyombo and Birch. And I use "hit" loosely there.

After Carroll though we've never been in a position to sign a big time free agent (ie, over the mid level) until last season, and then decided not to use that cap space anyway. Maybe a lesson we learned from the Carroll years.

[PhilBlackson]

GO!

Phil we need more of your "1st round curb stomping" rants this year to drum up support for TWO!

The same people who were fighting tooth & nail for this "invaluable Playoff experience" LAST year, are the same ones now signing from the mountain tops how wonderful it is to have gotten Barnes as a result of tanking.

You simply can't shake that level of cognitive dissonance.

[NBA Sheady]

Yes, anyone who doesn't agree with you is failing to comprehend or a bot.

It's quite clearly in the post and like I said earlier, you said that players don't want to play here. That is completely false as we've had no problems re-signing our players over the past decade. Zero problems whatsoever. Ibaka, Demar, Lowry, Pascal, FVV, JV, OG.

Then you moved the goal posts and said "well we can't sign any free agents." Well first of all, that's different to your original statement and secondly, when have we tried? When have we been both an elite team and had cap space. How many free agents did GSW sign before KD? Do you think they sign KD if they didn't have Curry/Dray/Klay? Do you think Aldridge signs with the Spurs if they didn't have the team that they had?

There are about 27 teams in the league that have had problems signing free agents.

When people talk free agency and Raptors it comes in as a negative connotation because since the beginning we've struggled to keep our own "stars". Specifically with guys like Damon, T-Mac, Vince, Davis, and Bosh all wanting out. Not a free agent, but Mourning essentially "retired" so he didn't play here. And then it got compounded when Kawhi left for LAC post championship. Even over the hill Gasol decided to leave Toronto for LA on a vet minimum deal no less.

But we've had plenty of successes too.. and I guess the definition of "star" changes with that success because it changes the narrative. Kyle, DeMar, JV, and Serge all wanted to stay. Fred came back. Norm came back. Pascal and OG came back (although were rookie deals).

But if you want to look at free agency in a negative light.. you can again if you look at guys that weren't originally Raptors. Even under the Masai era it's been more misses than hits. Starting with Carroll. But you can include CoJo, Scola, Miles, McCaw, Stanimal, Rondae, Baynes, Len, and currently Svi.

The only hits may have been Biyombo and Birch. And I use "hit" loosely there.

After Carroll though we've never been in a position to sign a big time free agent (ie, over the mid level) until last season, and then decided not to use that cap space anyway. Maybe a lesson we learned from the Carroll years.

Lots of stars end up being part of S&T's and three ways.

Not having capsace is equal parts cop-out and valid observation IMO.

[will]

GO!

Phil we need more of your "1st round curb stomping" rants this year to drum up support for TWO!

The same people who were fighting tooth & nail for this "invaluable Playoff experience" LAST year, are the same ones now signing from the mountain tops how wonderful it is to have gotten Barnes as a result of tanking.

You simply can't shake that level of cognitive dissonance.

Hi guys!!!

[canada_dry]

GO!

Phil we need more of your "1st round curb stomping" rants this year to drum up support for TWO!

The same people who were fighting tooth & nail for this "invaluable Playoff experience" LAST year, are the same ones now signing from the mountain tops how wonderful it is to have gotten Barnes as a result of tanking.

You simply can't shake that level of cognitive dissonance.

My guy you're the one advocating for a play in appearance over a playoff appearance lol.

Trash World Order days r numbered by the looks.of things.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[PhilBlackson]

No. What im saying is u want to lose in the play in. Thats essentially what u guys are asking for right now with the 13th or 14th lottery odds. The team being better than u thought has brought u to this point of desperation lol. Uve become what uve hated.

"pLaY iN fOr WhAt?"

Yes I gave some rationale of why it would be in the franchise's interest to do so. Unsurprisingly you didn't provide a counter argument because likely you don't have one lol but instead some low brow drivel. Gave you too much credit thinking you could put together a coherent thought.

But but... play in for what??

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Only displaying your own stupidity lol making the Play IN (keyword "IN" as in, into the Playoffs) is what YOU are advocating. We're advocating to remain OUT of the Playoffs and in the lottery.

How many times do you need to embarrass yourself before you log off?!

[will]

Phil we need more of your "1st round curb stomping" rants this year to drum up support for TWO!

The same people who were fighting tooth & nail for this "invaluable Playoff experience" LAST year, are the same ones now signing from the mountain tops how wonderful it is to have gotten Barnes as a result of tanking.

You simply can't shake that level of cognitive dissonance.

My guy you're the one advocating for a play in appearance over a playoff appearance lol.

Trash World Order days r numbered by the looks.of things.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Hate to break it to ya, but the tWo movement is strong.

The season is merely 2 full months in.

[planetmars]

It's quite clearly in the post and like I said earlier, you said that players don't want to play here. That is completely false as we've had no problems re-signing our players over the past decade. Zero problems whatsoever. Ibaka, Demar, Lowry, Pascal, FVV, JV, OG.

Then you moved the goal posts and said "well we can't sign any free agents." Well first of all, that's different to your original statement and secondly, when have we tried? When have we been both an elite team and had cap space. How many free agents did GSW sign before KD? Do you think they sign KD if they didn't have Curry/Dray/Klay? Do you think Aldridge signs with the Spurs if they didn't have the team that they had?

There are about 27 teams in the league that have had problems signing free agents.

When people talk free agency and Raptors it comes in as a negative connotation because since the beginning we've struggled to keep our own "stars". Specifically with guys like Damon, T-Mac, Vince, Davis, and Bosh all wanting out. Not a free agent, but Mourning essentially "retired" so he didn't play here. And then it got compounded when Kawhi left for LAC post championship. Even over the hill Gasol decided to leave Toronto for LA on a vet minimum deal no less.

But we've had plenty of successes too.. and I guess the definition of "star" changes with that success because it changes the narrative. Kyle, DeMar, JV, and Serge all wanted to stay. Fred came back. Norm came back. Pascal and OG came back (although were rookie deals).

But if you want to look at free agency in a negative light.. you can again if you look at guys that weren't originally Raptors. Even under the Masai era it's been more misses than hits. Starting with Carroll. But you can include CoJo, Scola, Miles, McCaw, Stanimal, Rondae, Baynes, Len, and currently Svi.

The only hits may have been Biyombo and Birch. And I use "hit" loosely there.

After Carroll though we've never been in a position to sign a big time free agent (ie, over the mid level) until last season, and then decided not to use that cap space anyway. Maybe a lesson we learned from the Carroll years.

Lots of stars end up being part of S&T's and three ways.

Not having capsace is equal parts cop-out and valid observation IMO.

Any team that participates in a sign and trade for a player/free agent is usually able to get that player with cap space anyway.. thus have negotiation power in the trade agreement.

Find me an example of a team that got a star player through a sign and trade, that didn't already have cap space. It will be very difficult.

[PhilBlackson]

I've asked you to explain your plan and you haven't. I will conclude you don't have one.

Ahh the hilarous irony....you see you thought you're bright but you're really not.

I agree it's different. I agree the difference is indeed drastic. It doesn't change the fact that Americans don't want to live in Canada.

I don't understand what your gripe is about...

It's been repeated over & over & over that NO ONE is saying to tank in perpetuity so can we please stop talking/acting like that's the case?! Scottie isn't going to leave because the Raps preferred to stay out of the Play In during his rookie season lol in order to improve their odds of giving him a star running mate for the next near decade...

Of course if anything that would only help to retain him, believing he has another guy that can help him get over the top and that management will know what to do with the remainder of the roster and then turn some of those other pieces into a 3rd star. That's the hope NOT to tank forever so please some of you guys are whining over and over about things not even being said.

Everyone acknowledges best case scenario be in the back end of the lottery with a good chance of being the 7/8th seed (it's just not preferred). If you have a better plan, spit out and please stop making like anyone is proposing we lose for years on end because it's simply not true.

I literally asked YOU two posts BEFORE YOURS (#1830 vs your post at #1832) what YOUR plan was, so you didn't answer because YOU don't have one you're just here to talk outta your backside while YOU AVOID answering and instead keep presenting more questions so that you don't have to face the fact you literally have no idea what you're going on about, nor do you have anything that resembles a solution but carry on...

As I said to another of your Stank World Order club - I'm not the one advocating for an extreme approach.

On to ignore for you now.

As Los had mentioned you really, really do need to work on your reading comprehension.

You're literally quoting me where I'm saying I'm not about an extreme approach either so thanks for doing me the favor, maybe you're not as bad as they say.

[ATLTimekeeper]

GO!

Phil we need more of your "1st round curb stomping" rants this year to drum up support for TWO!

The same people who were fighting tooth & nail for this "invaluable Playoff experience" LAST year, are the same ones now signing from the mountain tops how wonderful it is to have gotten Barnes as a result of tanking.

You simply can't shake that level of cognitive dissonance.

The same people that were arguing that we should only tank because we were in Tampa and it's a lost cause anyway are arguing to tank again. This is a weak dig.

I'm happy they got Fred undrafted and Siakam at the end of the first round. Draft position doesn't mean much to me. If they drafted Sengun in the mid-first, I would have been happy with that pick, too.

[Parataxis]

It's really a win-win for you then. If they make the play-in you get 1 playoff game. If they lose, you have a chance to see if they can move to top 4, even if the chances are slim. That's the way I feel anyway.

What I can see is that management is not caring either way. They might actually be okay if they don't get in.

This is pretty much where I've been guessing that our FO is at. It's a development year, and they're going to let things sit where they lay.

If something goes horribly wrong, and we're out of the play in picture with a month left to go - rest the team, but go hard when you are playing, and take the losses.

If we're in the play in picture then play in, get that quasi-post season experience, and win or lose, we're fine - either a slightly better pick, or a bit more post-season experience.

And if somehow we're fighting for a 6 or better seed? Well, fight for it, and let's see how everybody does under pressure.

There's no bad end to this season, at least not on the court (the world is another story)

[mademan]

Let's repeat this yet again...

NO ONE is saying we need to actually tank (re-read that until it absorbs in and then do it again), no one believes we can bottom out below all the garbage below us in the standings OR that we will/should do that for years on end. That's just some ridiculous drivel that ironically TM posters resort to making these foolish hyperbolic statements that no one is actually saying in order to get attention/response. It's about remaining in the lottery to increase the likelihood of drafting another star young player which happens repeatedly.

We're talking about finishing in the 10-15th seed (with the possibility of moving up in the draft) to being Playoff bound the next season, is that really such a difficult jump to comprehend?!?? lol

Historically, the jump from like 11 (our realistic high, imo) and like 15-17 is almost irrelevant. Yes, the top of the draft is where you find the best talent, but after that, the middle of the first round is usually bunched up together. You can look as far back as you want; historically, the 11th pick doesnt produce a clearly better player than the 17th.

The idea that we should avoid the playoffs for a slightly better pick just doesnt jive. You lose playoff experience and encourage the idea that winning isnt everything, which is should be.

It does however actually CLEARLY increase the ODDS, that's just factual.

But let's just rhyme off some of the players taken in the last decade or so in the 10-15 range

Devin Booker
Klay Thompson
Paul George
Donovan Mitchell
Kawhi Leonard
Michael Porter Jr
Tyler Herro
Tyrese Haliburton
SGA
Miles Bridges
Bam Adebayo
Domantus Sabonis
Zach LaVine
CJ McCollum

I haven't double checked but I'm gonna guess that 10-15 range has produced more stars over the last decade than the 16-20 did.

From non-lotto but teens over the last like 8 years or so we have:

Kawhi (15th)
Jrue Holiday
Gobert
Vuc
Tobias Harris
Giannis
John Collins

off the top of my head, tho i think tobi mightve been early 20's, cant remember. Im sure there's more, but i dont have time to check. Every analysis ive seen of the draft shows that the big moneymakers are at the top and once you get past that and into the middle of the draft, the odds for finding a difference maker evens out. And this is only over the past 8 or 9 years so not even a great sample size.

Your statement that it's factual that your more likely to get a star at 11 than 15 is wrong tho.

https://www.pdg-analytics.com/articles/nba-draft-all-star-correlations

Once you take a larger sample, it maps out like this



Moreover, probability of drafting an All-Star player flattens to 0.06 for draft picks beyond the top-10 (including the second round). Also, the fraction of All-Star players from the last 29 years that were selected in the second round is 0.13+/-0.03.

[PhilBlackson]

Phil we need more of your "1st round curb stomping" rants this year to drum up support for TWO!

The same people who were fighting tooth & nail for this "invaluable Playoff experience" LAST year, are the same ones now signing from the mountain tops how wonderful it is to have gotten Barnes as a result of tanking.

You simply can't shake that level of cognitive dissonance.

The same people that were arguing that we should only tank because we were in Tampa and it's a lost cause anyway are arguing to tank again. This is a weak dig.

I'm happy they got Fred undrafted and Siakam at the end of the first round. Draft position doesn't mean much to me. If they drafted Sengun in the mid-first, I would have been happy with that pick, too.

Well somehow you believe getting Sengun is just as good as Barnes so therein lies the problem lol

[Parataxis]

Find me an example of a team that got a star player through a sign and trade, that didn't already have cap space. It will be very difficult.

The Heat, IIRC. Unless I'm misremembering, they didn't have the space to sign both Bosh and Bron without a S&T

[ATLTimekeeper]

It's really a win-win for you then. If they make the play-in you get 1 playoff game. If they lose, you have a chance to see if they can move to top 4, even if the chances are slim. That's the way I feel anyway.

What I can see is that management is not caring either way. They might actually be okay if they don't get in.

This is pretty much where I've been guessing that our FO is at. It's a development year, and they're going to let things sit where they lay.

If something goes horribly wrong, and we're out of the play in picture with a month left to go - rest the team, but go hard when you are playing, and take the losses.

If we're in the play in picture then play in, get that quasi-post season experience, and win or lose, we're fine - either a slightly better pick, or a bit more post-season experience.

And if somehow we're fighting for a 6 or better seed? Well, fight for it, and let's see how everybody does under pressure.

There's no bad end to this season, at least not on the court (the world is another story)

This is what they did last year, too, which is what all teams really should do. They were doing about the same around the covid outbreak. Then they made the correct decision to lose games on purpose.

[canada_dry]

Yes I gave some rationale of why it would be in the franchise's interest to do so. Unsurprisingly you didn't provide a counter argument because likely you don't have one lol but instead some low brow drivel. Gave you too much credit thinking you could put together a coherent thought.

But but... play in for what??

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Only displaying your own stupidity lol making the Play IN (keyword "IN" as in, into the Playoffs) is what YOU are advocating. We're advocating to remain OUT of the Playoffs and in the lottery.

How many times do you need to embarrass yourself before you log off?!

The play IN is the tournament u dolt lol. U are basically conceding they'll at least be in that mini postseason tournament and want them in and to lose. That's what would have to happen to be in that 13/14 range u suggested.

I personally said above its not the worst outcome because theres at least one or 2 games of postseason experience to be had, while u , sir, keep ur one in a thousand odds of jumping into the top 4 of the draft.

The hilariousness of it is that TWO as a group go from " play in for what??" To pro play in. U hate to see it lol.

Remember what we were saying about changing of goal posts and changing of feathers? Lol

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Warned: Personal Attack
- Reeko