Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving?

[DirtyDez]

Dissapointed but only because we struck out on McGrady while Houston got him for scraps. BC must've not being serious about him b/c Joe or Marion plus our pick would've topped ouston's offer. Maybe D'Antoni didn't want a heavy ISO player?

[ATTL]

Tried finding the old forum posts with the way back machine but it didn't save any real gm posts before 2007.

[collidingNeurons]

Dissapointed but only because we struck out on McGrady while Houston got him for scraps. BC must've not being serious about him b/c Joe or Marion plus our pick would've topped ouston's offer. Maybe D'Antoni didn't want a heavy ISO player?

i honestly dont recall if i wanted or thought we had a realistic shot at McGrady or not, but in retrospect Marion, Johnson and Nash trumped Mcgrady, now if Sarver just hadnt pissed off Johnson... sigh... most fun Suns team for me ever too bad it was so short lived, then Kerr and Sarver slowly selling it off and dismantling it thinking D'antoni was wrong, which is ironic now that kerr has the modern day version of that team

[Moochthemonkey]

I wonder if RealGM existed in 2004 we'd not want Nash because of opinions about his defense.

RealGM has been here since Jason Kidd was on the team. In fact the only active players currently under contract prior to RealGM's inception are Dirk Nowitzki and Jamal Crawford.

If the same group that posts now was to be teleported 13 seasons back then I believe the poll result of acquiring Nash would be a resounding NO and defense is perhaps the least of it. (the only people that wouldn't end up eating crow would be bigfoot and Frank Lee )

Nash had made the all star and NBA third teams twice ('02-'03) but he was 30 years old and statistically putting up slightly above average numbers (14 and 9). To put that in perspective, there were comments here in 2012 ascribing that Dragic at 26 was too old to be a cornerstone of a franchise. A 30 year old doesn't fit into the #timeline unless he's a 12th man cheerleader/locker room presence (ideally on a vet minimum salary).

Most importantly, we just had started a rebuild midseason by trading away Marbury, Hardaway, and Gugliotta not to mention getting a new coach. And the team won less than 30 times for the first time since 1988. Nash would almost certainly make teammates better and lead a positive environment- whether there is question whether someone like Kyrie would do the same. but in either circumstance the asset retained outweighs the shorter term benefits: meaning landing a top draft pick over clawing for a projected 8th-10th seed. Why not 'let the young guys play' and 'gratuitously give players days of for basketball reasons' to improve adding a solid prospect to the core of Marion/Stoudemire/Johnson.

Steve Nash made 8.75 million in his first (returning) year here. that's 20% of the cap...Jeff Teague is making about 20% of the cap right now, and he's similar to a 2004 Nash: 29 years and coming off a 15/8 season. say Eric Bledsoe wasn't here, would you want to give 20% of the cap to a Jeff Teague

and this is disregarding the point that Nash was signed here as an FA; a 25 y/o Kyrie would come here at the cost of multiple assets. And I haven't read much qualms here if those assets are just Bledsoe/Warren (or Chriss)/top 10 protected pick. But giving up Joe Johnson and picks to acquire 30 y/o Nash? Sarver might do it, but there would be little to no RealGMers that would pull the trigger on that one.

there was concerns regarding Nash's back too (rumored to be the reason Cuban didn't pay him) although it didn't really show in DNPs.

I'm off tangent in my ramble as you were only talking about Nash/Irving's lack of defense, but I'd imagine this community would overall react negatively to acquiring Nash in 2004, even if was just through FA. but to be fair, how many 30 year olds become surprise two-time MVPs

I can't believe you were monitoring the boards at that time, but I can't imagine acquiring Nash in free agency after trading Marbury would not have been a popular move. I mean we drafted him and he was a liked player. We had a rookie of the year, Marion who was a lottery pick and traded vets for a young Joe Johnson. We had filled the other positions. But the bigger difference at that point in time was that we were NEVER a losing team, so ANY big free agent signing would have been popular.

But the primary and most important point is that Nash CHOSE to sign with us and gave us a commitment for a number of years. With Kyrie, not only is there no commitment, but I imagine it is unlikely he would stay, and we would lose assets in the process. That is a big difference, but I guess you acknowledged that.

I enjoyed reading your post though.

cheers

no, I've been reading these forums since 2006. I was just making a historical citation about RealGM's age (about 17 years) for those who may not know...

I just can't see the majority here wanting to commit long term to any player in their 30s that isn't Lebron James. True, we were never a losing team until this decade...but at the same time Suns were a perennial first round exit team since Barkley left (sans winning against a Tim Duncan-less Spurs). They were a good example of a team treadmilling in purgatory- never 'bad enough' to acquire a player through the draft*, but never really contenders.

it's essentially committing two additional years...but the way contracts are handed out these days, I would be more comfortable for a team in our position dishing out a two year semi-max to someone like Kyrie rather than four. If his situation in Phoenix was to go over nicely, than there wouldn't be much problem inking him to the "mega-max" in 2019. That's when there's 30 million+ more on the books to sign another big FA that offseason anyway.

*but of course we acquired two lottery picks in trades that worked out very swimmingly...The 1999 pick (Marion) was sent to Phoenix in a package for Steve Nash who returned anyway. The 2002 pick (Stoudemire) was sent to the Magic in a a package for Hardaway, then traded back to the Suns for...Jud Buechler and Vinny Del Negro LOL

[phx#7]

I wonder if RealGM existed in 2004 we'd not want Nash because of opinions about his defense.

Most thought he was damaged goods because of his back and thought it would have been better to go for a cheaper Brent Barry.

[NavLDO]

I think it's pretty rare rookies are expected to be much of an immediate contributor. It's also pretty rare that a rookie grades out above avg defensively like Winslow did, so he definitely contributed on that end, right away. But yes, he can't shoot, so yes, that's a problem. He's basically on par with Stanley Johnson so far.

I think it's typically easier to improve on offense than it is on defense though.

You and AtheJ are having an excellent Debate; each bringing up great points. Sorry for the interruption, but I thought it was interesting that when I looked at the entire NBA, listed by OBPM, there were some names down there that, considering their 'hype', 'status', and heck, even 'contract', for some, really have no business being down -3.0 or lower:

Trey Lyles
Brandon Ingram
Jaylen Brown
Alec Burks (good reason for his declining minutes since 2014)
Jahlil Okafor (surprise, right?)
Noah Vonleh
Chandler Parsons

Players with Offsetting DBPM of 1 or higher:
Jerami Grant (Close enough...DBPM of .9)
Len
Wesley Johnson
Kriss Dunn
the 'aforementioned-by-BW'- Stanimal
MCW
Biyombo
Motiejunas

Of course, there are others...these are the ones that jumped out at me.

One item I will add though, is that I disagree that it's 'pretty rare' for rookies to grade out above avg defensively; many rookies that were defensively minded in college come in and perform/grade out well defensively in their rookie seasons:

Nogueria
Gobert
O'Quinn
Noel
Giannis
Embiid
Dunn

...and even Chriss graded out as even, and I do not believe he was highly touted for his defense.

So, point is, it's not rare at all, unless your point was rookies are more likely to come in more 'offensively sound' than 'defensively sound' in their play. That, I would agree with...but not that it's rare for rookies to come in and post positive numbers defensively.

You may now continue your regularly scheduled programming

It is pretty rare for a rookie wing to be good defensively. You can have all the tools to be a great defensively but still come short( Wiggins). So, Winslow was as advertised. Great defender with a lot of work on the offensive side. On a great offensively talented roster like Cleveland, he would be like a Swiss knife.

OK, so, Giannis is...a Wing...and I only made it down about 20-25 players of the 486 NBA players last year on my list above; and as I just listed the obvious choices, I'll go ahead and list Wings, that as rookies, rated positively Defensively, as well...

MKG
Andre Roberson
Hollis-Jefferson
Stanimal
Wes Johnson
PJ Tucker (even though his rookies season he was 27)
Joe Ingles (same as PJ--27 upon NBA rookie season)
Thabo Sefolosha
Danny Green
Tony Allen
Patrick Beverly
Jimmy Butler
Andre Iguodala
LeBron James
Luc Mbah a Moute (SF/PF)
Kevin Durant
Solomon Hill
Manu Ginoboli
James Johnson (SF/PF)
Thad Young (SF/PF-now,you might say--'he'splayed mostly PF...blah, blah...'--ok, well then, he was 6'7.5" 220LB PF with + rookie D scores)
Dorian Finney-Smith (see "Thad Young")
Kawhi Leonard
Taurean Prince
Al-farouq Aminu
David Lee (SF when he came into the league)
Josh Richardson
Trevor Ariza
Vince Carter
Jerami Grant

OK, I got tired after 30 names (not including your 'rare' boy, Winslow, that would be 31), out of the top 121 names for DBPM listed this year. And that's just the players that are still playing in the NBA, and that got me down the list to DBPMs of +.9 on the list, so were I to keep going, I'm sure I could find 50 names of 'Wings' that entered the league with either a + DBPM, or, in the case that the DBPM was slightly negative, as there were maybe 5 names on my list where the DBPM was not positive, but they had + DWS AND a DRtg of 107 or lower (which, for this year, is the top 143 of 486 players) to offset their -.3, or something to that effect, DBPM. OK, horrible sentence, but you get what I mean.

So, maybe you, and BW, have a different idea of what "rare" means, and you both can keep coming up with 'qualifiers' or 'disclaimers' to make your point...first it was rookies...then it was rookies that weren't Centers (BW's argument)...and now, from you, it's specifically rookie "Wings".

Well, this list pretty much eliminates that argument, so go ahead and come back with more 'disclaimers' as to how Winslow is 'uniquely' talented Defensively as a Wing, and how that offsets his horrific Offense so much, that he's more of a blue-chip prospect than Bender or Chriss.

[NTB]

Read on Twitter

[wheezy]

I wonder if RealGM existed in 2004 we'd not want Nash because of opinions about his defense.

As someone who was here, I remember most not thinking he was an upgrade over marbury. Of course we had 5 active posters at that time.

I don't remember if it was the 04/05 season or the one after, but that was when I started lurking the boards - whenever KJ7 was the mod.

[NTB]

Read on Twitter

[bwgood77]

You and AtheJ are having an excellent Debate; each bringing up great points. Sorry for the interruption, but I thought it was interesting that when I looked at the entire NBA, listed by OBPM, there were some names down there that, considering their 'hype', 'status', and heck, even 'contract', for some, really have no business being down -3.0 or lower:

Trey Lyles
Brandon Ingram
Jaylen Brown
Alec Burks (good reason for his declining minutes since 2014)
Jahlil Okafor (surprise, right?)
Noah Vonleh
Chandler Parsons

Players with Offsetting DBPM of 1 or higher:
Jerami Grant (Close enough...DBPM of .9)
Len
Wesley Johnson
Kriss Dunn
the 'aforementioned-by-BW'- Stanimal
MCW
Biyombo
Motiejunas

Of course, there are others...these are the ones that jumped out at me.

One item I will add though, is that I disagree that it's 'pretty rare' for rookies to grade out above avg defensively; many rookies that were defensively minded in college come in and perform/grade out well defensively in their rookie seasons:

Nogueria
Gobert
O'Quinn
Noel
Giannis
Embiid
Dunn

...and even Chriss graded out as even, and I do not believe he was highly touted for his defense.

So, point is, it's not rare at all, unless your point was rookies are more likely to come in more 'offensively sound' than 'defensively sound' in their play. That, I would agree with...but not that it's rare for rookies to come in and post positive numbers defensively.

You may now continue your regularly scheduled programming

It is pretty rare for a rookie wing to be good defensively. You can have all the tools to be a great defensively but still come short( Wiggins). So, Winslow was as advertised. Great defender with a lot of work on the offensive side. On a great offensively talented roster like Cleveland, he would be like a Swiss knife.

OK, so, Giannis is...a Wing...and I only made it down about 20-25 players of the 486 NBA players last year on my list above; and as I just listed the obvious choices, I'll go ahead and list Wings, that as rookies, rated positively Defensively, as well...

MKG
Andre Roberson
Hollis-Jefferson
Stanimal
Wes Johnson
PJ Tucker (even though his rookies season he was 27)
Joe Ingles (same as PJ--27 upon NBA rookie season)
Thabo Sefolosha
Danny Green
Tony Allen
Patrick Beverly
Jimmy Butler
Andre Iguodala
LeBron James
Luc Mbah a Moute (SF/PF)
Kevin Durant
Solomon Hill
Manu Ginoboli
James Johnson (SF/PF)
Thad Young (SF/PF-now,you might say--'he'splayed mostly PF...blah, blah...'--ok, well then, he was 6'7.5" 220LB PF with + rookie D scores)
Dorian Finney-Smith (see "Thad Young")
Kawhi Leonard
Taurean Prince
Al-farouq Aminu
David Lee (SF when he came into the league)
Josh Richardson
Trevor Ariza
Vince Carter
Jerami Grant

OK, I got tired after 30 names (not including your 'rare' boy, Winslow, that would be 31), out of the top 121 names for DBPM listed this year. And that's just the players that are still playing in the NBA, and that got me down the list to DBPMs of +.9 on the list, so were I to keep going, I'm sure I could find 50 names of 'Wings' that entered the league with either a + DBPM, or, in the case that the DBPM was slightly negative, as there were maybe 5 names on my list where the DBPM was not positive, but they had + DWS AND a DRtg of 107 or lower (which, for this year, is the top 143 of 486 players) to offset their -.3, or something to that effect, DBPM. OK, horrible sentence, but you get what I mean.

So, maybe you, and BW, have a different idea of what "rare" means, and you both can keep coming up with 'qualifiers' or 'disclaimers' to make your point...first it was rookies...then it was rookies that weren't Centers (BW's argument)...and now, from you, it's specifically rookie "Wings".

Well, this list pretty much eliminates that argument, so go ahead and come back with more 'disclaimers' as to how Winslow is 'uniquely' talented Defensively as a Wing, and how that offsets his horrific Offense so much, that he's more of a blue-chip prospect than Bender or Chriss.

You sure are spending a lot of time just to advance your argument. Of course your list can get bigger and bigger when you continually expand your parameters to include players drafted up to nearly 20 years ago. You are listing many of the better defensive wings (and I guess PFs) of the last decade +. Obviously the further you go back the more it's not going to look as rare because of all the guys who are no longer in the league. The further you go back while looking at players still in the league, the higher the chance the guy was a net positive in his first year because if they were not, it is more likely they are no longer in the league. The fact you had to go back so far to build such a list further establishes the point that it's pretty rare.

A good % of rookies each year are not even good enough to stick in the league for that long, but of course if you researched this by only looking at players still in the league as your source data, you will argue that they have a 100% success rate of staying in the league based on your flawed study.

[LukasBMW]

I love that both Booker and Jackson have that killer instinct.

I don't see either one of them ever getting complacent even after a big contract extension.

[NavLDO]

It is pretty rare for a rookie wing to be good defensively. You can have all the tools to be a great defensively but still come short( Wiggins). So, Winslow was as advertised. Great defender with a lot of work on the offensive side. On a great offensively talented roster like Cleveland, he would be like a Swiss knife.

OK, so, Giannis is...a Wing...and I only made it down about 20-25 players of the 486 NBA players last year on my list above; and as I just listed the obvious choices, I'll go ahead and list Wings, that as rookies, rated positively Defensively, as well...

MKG
Andre Roberson
Hollis-Jefferson
Stanimal
Wes Johnson
PJ Tucker (even though his rookies season he was 27)
Joe Ingles (same as PJ--27 upon NBA rookie season)
Thabo Sefolosha
Danny Green
Tony Allen
Patrick Beverly
Jimmy Butler
Andre Iguodala
LeBron James
Luc Mbah a Moute (SF/PF)
Kevin Durant
Solomon Hill
Manu Ginoboli
James Johnson (SF/PF)
Thad Young (SF/PF-now,you might say--'he'splayed mostly PF...blah, blah...'--ok, well then, he was 6'7.5" 220LB PF with + rookie D scores)
Dorian Finney-Smith (see "Thad Young")
Kawhi Leonard
Taurean Prince
Al-farouq Aminu
David Lee (SF when he came into the league)
Josh Richardson
Trevor Ariza
Vince Carter
Jerami Grant

OK, I got tired after 30 names (not including your 'rare' boy, Winslow, that would be 31), out of the top 121 names for DBPM listed this year. And that's just the players that are still playing in the NBA, and that got me down the list to DBPMs of +.9 on the list, so were I to keep going, I'm sure I could find 50 names of 'Wings' that entered the league with either a + DBPM, or, in the case that the DBPM was slightly negative, as there were maybe 5 names on my list where the DBPM was not positive, but they had + DWS AND a DRtg of 107 or lower (which, for this year, is the top 143 of 486 players) to offset their -.3, or something to that effect, DBPM. OK, horrible sentence, but you get what I mean.

So, maybe you, and BW, have a different idea of what "rare" means, and you both can keep coming up with 'qualifiers' or 'disclaimers' to make your point...first it was rookies...then it was rookies that weren't Centers (BW's argument)...and now, from you, it's specifically rookie "Wings".

Well, this list pretty much eliminates that argument, so go ahead and come back with more 'disclaimers' as to how Winslow is 'uniquely' talented Defensively as a Wing, and how that offsets his horrific Offense so much, that he's more of a blue-chip prospect than Bender or Chriss.

You sure are spending a lot of time just to advance your argument. Of course your list can get bigger and bigger when you continually expand your parameters to include players drafted up to nearly 20 years ago. You are listing many of the better defensive wings (and I guess PFs) of the last decade +. Obviously the further you go back the more it's not going to look as rare because of all the guys who are no longer in the league. The further you go back while looking at players still in the league, the higher the chance the guy was a net positive in his first year because if they were not, it is more likely they are no longer in the league. The fact you had to go back so far to build such a list further establishes the point that it's pretty rare.

A good % of rookies each year are not even good enough to stick in the league for that long, but of course if you researched this by only looking at players still in the league as your source data, you will argue that they have a 100% success rate of staying in the league based on your flawed study.

PFs?? No, nice try, there were 4 of 30 that were 'Wings' when they came into the league...I was just using YOUR 'qualifier'...players that came into the league as "Wings'...but nice try to flip that around...I'm sure anyone bothering to read this can see the FLAW in YOUR argument, there...and I quote "It is pretty rare for a rookie wing to be good defensively." Care to retract that??? Of course not...you'll find a 'disclaimer' in there like you were obviously talking about "Wings" that stayed "Wings"

Expand parameters??? You mean to current NBA players? I thought that is what we were talking about here..."It is pretty rare for a rookie wing to be good defensively." Oh...was that for only 2017 rookies? No...wait...that wouldn't include Winslow...Oh, 2016 Rookies Only?? 2016 AND 2017 rookies???? Rookies from 2012 to 2017??? 2010 to 2017??? Please,dolet me know...Nice try though...

And flawed??? I assumed we were talking about NBA players here...oh, I see, disclaimer #4, it's now #1-Rookies with positive D numbers, #2-Rookie 'Wings' with Positive D numbers, #3-Rookie 'Wings' that ONLY came into the league between "X Year" and, when, the Present? And now, Disclaimer #4 everyone, whew...make sure I get this right...Rookie 'Wings' that came into the NBA between "X Year" and the Present, that may, or may NOT still be in the NBA...

So, those are the ones we are comparing to Justice Winslow?? Those are the 'Rare' ones...OK, got it, you win. That is pretty rare for a Rookie 'Wing' to come into the NBA only during your specified time frame that may not even still be in the NBA,with positive D numbers...Yep...pretty rare...

...you know what else is...anyone that makes it into the NBA that actually starts more than 10 games...or...scores more than 25 in a game...or...plays more than 50 games in the NBA...lots of things are 'Rare' in the NBA, if you are going to include all those that FAIL in the NBA...that's like saying water is wet...wow...great insight...I assumed we were talking about ACTUAL NBA players, here, you know, guys on my list that actually played more than 100 minutes in the league...

[Frank Lee]

Lay off the coffee swabbie

[bwgood77]

PFs?? No, nice try, there were 4 of 30 that were 'Wings' when they came into the league...I was just using YOUR 'qualifier'...players that came into the league as "Wings'...but nice try to flip that around...I'm sure anyone bothering to read this can see the FLAW in YOUR argument, there...and I quote "It is pretty rare for a rookie wing to be good defensively." Care to retract that??? Of course not...you'll find a 'disclaimer' in there like you were obviously talking about "Wings" that stayed "Wings"

Expand parameters??? You mean to current NBA players? I thought that is what we were talking about here..."It is pretty rare for a rookie wing to be good defensively." Oh...was that for only 2017 rookies? No...wait...that wouldn't include Winslow...Oh, 2016 Rookies Only?? 2016 AND 2017 rookies???? Rookies from 2012 to 2017??? 2010 to 2017??? Please,dolet me know...Nice try though...

And flawed??? I assumed we were talking about NBA players here...oh, I see, disclaimer #4, it's now #1-Rookies with positive D numbers, #2-Rookie 'Wings' with Positive D numbers, #3-Rookie 'Wings' that ONLY came into the league between "X Year" and, when, the Present? And now, Disclaimer #4 everyone, whew...make sure I get this right...Rookie 'Wings' that came into the NBA between "X Year" and the Present, that may, or may NOT still be in the NBA...

So, those are the ones we are comparing to Justice Winslow?? Those are the 'Rare' ones...OK, got it, you win. That is pretty rare for a Rookie 'Wing' to come into the NBA only during your specified time frame that may not even still be in the NBA,with positive D numbers...Yep...pretty rare...

...you know what else is...anyone that makes it into the NBA that actually starts more than 10 games...or...scores more than 25 in a game...or...plays more than 50 games in the NBA...lots of things are 'Rare' in the NBA, if you are going to include all those that FAIL in the NBA...that's like saying water is wet...wow...great insight...I assumed we were talking about ACTUAL NBA players, here, you know, guys on my list that actually played more than 100 minutes in the league...

I'm not going to retract it and agree with faulty arguments. If you don't understand my argument I can't really discuss further. It's a pointless debate. It's rare rookie wings are good defensively. If you find 20 over the last 20 years that enforces the rarity.

If you don't understand why your argument is flawed, then it's not worth continuing. 1,200 players have been drafted over the last 20 years. Others undrafted that became rookies. You are looking at a pool of the ones out of those players who became successful nba players as a starting point (huge flaw) and came up with a list of all stars and defensive specialists.

[jredsaz]

This is the slowest I may have ever seen this board. Even for a Sunday in August. Lol.

Sent from my SM-N920V using RealGM mobile app

[carey]

This is the slowest I may have ever seen this board. Even for a Sunday in August. Lol.

Sent from my SM-N920V using RealGM mobile app

Yeah, what's up? Anything going on? Still talking about Kyrie?

[bwgood77]

This is the slowest I may have ever seen this board. Even for a Sunday in August. Lol.

Sent from my SM-N920V using RealGM mobile app

I was thinking it was more active than usual for this time of year outside of the last couple of days.

To carey's post, yes, still Groundhog day with the Kyrie stuff.

[MrMiyagi]

This is the slowest I may have ever seen this board. Even for a Sunday in August. Lol.

Sent from my SM-N920V using RealGM mobile app

I was thinking it was more active than usual for this time of year outside of the last couple of days.

To carey's post, yes, still Groundhog day with the Kyrie stuff.

[bwgood77]

This is the slowest I may have ever seen this board. Even for a Sunday in August. Lol.

Sent from my SM-N920V using RealGM mobile app

I was thinking it was more active than usual for this time of year outside of the last couple of days.

To carey's post, yes, still Groundhog day with the Kyrie stuff.

I am sure someone will want to get the fantasy drafts going on before the end of September, so you will be awoken before then.

[MrMiyagi]

I was thinking it was more active than usual for this time of year outside of the last couple of days.

To carey's post, yes, still Groundhog day with the Kyrie stuff.

I am sure someone will want to get the fantasy drafts going on before the end of September, so you will be awoken before then.

When the draft(s) rolls around, I will...