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tsherkin wrote:It's patently incorrect to say that a healthy Yao is better than Dwight, because he doesn't really do anything noticeably better apart from shoot, and while that has value, Dwight does tons of stuff that Yao doesn't. It makes them differ stylistically, but scoring is consistently overrated in comparisons like this, and ultimately, Dwight's able to make a larger impact when his offensive game isn't going. When Yao isn't hitting those jumpers, he's not nearly as effective as Dwight.

For that reason, I have to call this one a draw. I find it really difficult to separate the two. Put a gun to my head, I say Dwight, but from the standpoint of understanding what Yao does bring, it's fairer to say that they are on the same tier, without any clear separation if you ignore health.

Huh? I thought I read your post two months ago (I did this after I PMd you) and I thought you said Yao was the better player when he was healthy, this sounds like you completely changed your argument. Do you think they are both Top 10 players when both are healthy though?

Here's the link to the thread, I'm not crazy...
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1002233&start=75

Yeah, Dwight's amazing. He's one of my favorite players in the league right now. Yes, Dwight rebounds better and blocks more shots than Yao. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a more valuable player.

IMO, Yao's still an elite defender, a comparably efficient but more prolific scorer and still a good rebounder and that makes him better than Dwight. By a small margin, but a visible one.

WorthyBlitz42 wrote:Huh? I thought I read your post two months ago (I did this after I PMd you) and I thought you said Yao was the better player when he was healthy, this sounds like you completely changed your argument. Do you think they are both Top 10 players when both are healthy though?

On offense, I agree, he's slightly more valuable than Dwight because he's a more reliable scorer. That's what I was getting at. I was obviously too vague in that particular post and I was also playing a little Devil's Advocate in that thread because sometimes Yao does get underrepresented for some reason. Probably because people don't get to see him all that often.

Top 10? Well, let's see...

Lebron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Steve Nash, Kevin Durant, Chris Bosh, Deron Williams and Tim Duncan comprise the list of the guys I think of as the best players in the league, and Yao certainly fits into that group. Amare just misses, but a healthy Gilbert Arenas, should we ever see such a creature again, at least threatens to enter that group when he's not playing like a (Please Use More Appropriate Word), because he's an explosive scorer and a diverse talent.

I'd comfortably say that Yao is a top 15 player in the league, for sure. Top 10 is a bit touchy, though. I don't think he can maintain the kind of production we've seen from him the last few years and actually BE healthy. I doubt it's coincidence that the seasons where he's played under 34 mpg have been his healthiest seasons, so that strips some of his value in comparison to those other guys because he literally can't be on the floor as long. Most of those guys are more valuable offensively (in fact, I'd argue that all of them apart from Dwight, Bosh and Duncan are clearly of greater offensive value), but Yao's a better defender than anyone but Duncan and Howard on that list, so that helps him make up some ground there. He's not really that impressive a rebounder but he's still basically a 10 rpg player.

If Yao could somehow actually be healthy and produce 22+/10, I'd have to consider him more valuable than Chris Bosh and a guy who could at least be considered as a competitor to Carmelo Anthony and Kevin Durant on that list. I should probably also list him as a serious competitor to knock Duncan off the top 10 list because Tim is also a limited-minutes guy now and doesn't have the same kind of offensive or defensive impact he once did. It's crazy, Duncan's running on fumes and he's still a borderline top-10 player. But yeah, a healthy Yao is similar, even if he's a vastly inferior passer.

It really depends on what healthy Yao can actually accomplish. In reality, healthy Yao is usually a 20/9 guy who defends very well. That's top 15 and actually more like top 12 at least. Is it enough to elevate him past a guy like Durant who is mostly a hyper-efficient off-ball scorer? Probably. Is it enough to do the same with Melo, who's a similar scorer to Durant but a better passer and isolation scorer? Probably not. Is it enough to surpass Bosh? Almost assuredly. Is it enough to pass Dirk? Dirk's a comparable rebounder (this past season, his rebounding declined because of Marion, Kidd and Dampier/Haywood, so he looked worse than he was), a noticeably less impactful defender but a better passer and he shoots on like 4x as many attempts from 16-23 feet what Yao shoots from 10-15 feet. His offensive utility is considerably higher and he has the largely unique ability to take over a game like a guard at times, despite being 7 feet tall.

For me, Lebron, Paul, Wade, Kobe, Nash, Deron, Dirk and Melo are definitely better than a 20/9 healthy Yao. Durant probably will be next year, given his developmental curve. Everyone else on that list is comparable, for the most part, but also not clearly better than Yao, so depending on the specific year, I think it's fair to say that he'd sometimes be a top-10 player at that level. If we're talking 22+/10 Yao, then yes, I think he's clearly a top 10 player.

tsherkin wrote:

WorthyBlitz42 wrote:Huh? I thought I read your post two months ago (I did this after I PMd you) and I thought you said Yao was the better player when he was healthy, this sounds like you completely changed your argument. Do you think they are both Top 10 players when both are healthy though?

On offense, I agree, he's slightly more valuable than Dwight because he's a more reliable scorer. That's what I was getting at. I was obviously too vague in that particular post and I was also playing a little Devil's Advocate in that thread because sometimes Yao does get underrepresented for some reason. Probably because people don't get to see him all that often.

Top 10? Well, let's see...

Lebron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Steve Nash, Kevin Durant, Chris Bosh, Deron Williams and Tim Duncan comprise the list of the guys I think of as the best players in the league, and Yao certainly fits into that group. Amare just misses, but a healthy Gilbert Arenas, should we ever see such a creature again, at least threatens to enter that group when he's not playing like a (Please Use More Appropriate Word), because he's an explosive scorer and a diverse talent.

I'd comfortably say that Yao is a top 15 player in the league, for sure. Top 10 is a bit touchy, though. I don't think he can maintain the kind of production we've seen from him the last few years and actually BE healthy. I doubt it's coincidence that the seasons where he's played under 34 mpg have been his healthiest seasons, so that strips some of his value in comparison to those other guys because he literally can't be on the floor as long. Most of those guys are more valuable offensively (in fact, I'd argue that all of them apart from Dwight, Bosh and Duncan are clearly of greater offensive value), but Yao's a better defender than anyone but Duncan and Howard on that list, so that helps him make up some ground there. He's not really that impressive a rebounder but he's still basically a 10 rpg player.

If Yao could somehow actually be healthy and produce 22+/10, I'd have to consider him more valuable than Chris Bosh and a guy who could at least be considered as a competitor to Carmelo Anthony and Kevin Durant on that list. I should probably also list him as a serious competitor to knock Duncan off the top 10 list because Tim is also a limited-minutes guy now and doesn't have the same kind of offensive or defensive impact he once did. It's crazy, Duncan's running on fumes and he's still a borderline top-10 player. But yeah, a healthy Yao is similar, even if he's a vastly inferior passer.

It really depends on what healthy Yao can actually accomplish. In reality, healthy Yao is usually a 20/9 guy who defends very well. That's top 15 and actually more like top 12 at least. Is it enough to elevate him past a guy like Durant who is mostly a hyper-efficient off-ball scorer? Probably. Is it enough to do the same with Melo, who's a similar scorer to Durant but a better passer and isolation scorer? Probably not. Is it enough to surpass Bosh? Almost assuredly. Is it enough to pass Dirk? Dirk's a comparable rebounder (this past season, his rebounding declined because of Marion, Kidd and Dampier/Haywood, so he looked worse than he was), a noticeably less impactful defender but a better passer and he shoots on like 4x as many attempts from 16-23 feet what Yao shoots from 10-15 feet. His offensive utility is considerably higher and he has the largely unique ability to take over a game like a guard at times, despite being 7 feet tall.

For me, Lebron, Paul, Wade, Kobe, Nash, Deron, Dirk and Melo are definitely better than a 20/9 healthy Yao. Durant probably will be next year, given his developmental curve. Everyone else on that list is comparable, for the most part, but also not clearly better than Yao, so depending on the specific year, I think it's fair to say that he'd sometimes be a top-10 player at that level. If we're talking 22+/10 Yao, then yes, I think he's clearly a top 10 player.

I like how much thought you write in your posts, so basically to you, Yao and Dwight are basically hand-cuffed to one another in a players rankings list right? or at least towards yours when they are healthy right? You said they are basically a draw, but you would pick Dwight if you were forced to, I'm not sure what to believe....... in the other thread you said Yao was better, now you say Draw. I just want to confirm your thoughts.

Here would be my Top 10 list, tell me what you like and what you don't like

1. Kobe/Lebron
2. Lebron/Kobe
3. Wade
4. Cp3
5. Deron
6. Durant
7. Melo
8. Yao
9. Dwight
10. Dirk

I want you to specifically look at 8-10.

WorthyBlitz42 wrote:I like how much thought you write in your posts, so basically to you, Yao and Dwight are basically hand-cuffed to one another in a players rankings list right? or at least towards yours when they are healthy right? You said they are basically a draw, but you would pick Dwight if you were forced to, I'm not sure what to believe....... in the other thread you said Yao was better, now you say Draw. I just want to confirm your thoughts.

I think they are fairly close, yes. I feel Dwight produces more impact as a defender and rebounder, but Yao is a decent rebounder and an elite defender (not quite as good, but still excellent) who is slightly more valuable on offense. So yeah, roughly even with one another, and I prefer Dwight because he gives more consistently because defense and rebounding tend to be more consistent from game to game than offensive output.

Here would be my Top 10 list, tell me what you like and what you don't like

1. Kobe/Lebron
2. Lebron/Kobe
3. Wade
4. Cp3
5. Deron
6. Durant
7. Melo
8. Yao
9. Dwight
10. Dirk

I want you to specifically look at 8-10.

You mean order-wise? And are we considering 20/9 Yao or 22+/10 Yao?

tsherkin wrote:

WorthyBlitz42 wrote:I like how much thought you write in your posts, so basically to you, Yao and Dwight are basically hand-cuffed to one another in a players rankings list right? or at least towards yours when they are healthy right? You said they are basically a draw, but you would pick Dwight if you were forced to, I'm not sure what to believe....... in the other thread you said Yao was better, now you say Draw. I just want to confirm your thoughts.

I think they are fairly close, yes. I feel Dwight produces more impact as a defender and rebounder, but Yao is a decent rebounder and an elite defender (not quite as good, but still excellent) who is slightly more valuable on offense. So yeah, roughly even with one another, and I prefer Dwight because he gives more consistently because defense and rebounding tend to be more consistent from game to game than offensive output.

Here would be my Top 10 list, tell me what you like and what you don't like

1. Kobe/Lebron
2. Lebron/Kobe
3. Wade
4. Cp3
5. Deron
6. Durant
7. Melo
8. Yao
9. Dwight
10. Dirk

I want you to specifically look at 8-10.

You mean order-wise? And are we considering 20/9 Yao or 22+/10 Yao?

Order-wise, Yes.....Sure 22/10 Yao, is that Yao better than Dwight or something? And 20/9 isn't?

I guess my line of thinking with Yao is that he's a good presence on defense and you can give him the ball when you need a bucket. You can't necessarily do that with Dwight, especially when you're in crunch time and you know a foul is coming.

They are close though.

WorthyBlitz42 wrote:
Order-wise, Yes.....Sure 22/10 Yao, is that Yao better than Dwight or something? And 20/9 isn't?

Yes, actually. 22+ Yao is actually making significant use of his offensive versatility; 20/9 Yao is more of a secondary offensive weapon.

I'd re-arrange, tenatively:

Lebron
Kobe/Wade
Wade/Kobe
Paul
Dwight
Yao
Dirk
Deron


It's really tough to rank these guys; I find that really everything beneath Lebron is fairly fluid, especially from year to year. Sometimes it's clearly Wade, sometimes clearly Kobe. I think Paul was arguably the best player in the league in 08 and 09 (not definitively, but probably #2 or #3 at worst in those seasons, especially 09, and it's criminal how poor his team is and how he's being wasted).

Anyway, 22+/10 Yao is a 36-ish mpg player who's being used as a first option and anchoring a good defense, which radically changes his positioning because he's The Man, as opposed to a really valuable second player.

tsherkin wrote:

WorthyBlitz42 wrote:
Order-wise, Yes.....Sure 22/10 Yao, is that Yao better than Dwight or something? And 20/9 isn't?

Yes, actually. 22+ Yao is actually making significant use of his offensive versatility; 20/9 Yao is more of a secondary offensive weapon.

I'd re-arrange, tenatively:

Lebron
Kobe/Wade
Wade/Kobe
Paul
Dwight
Yao
Dirk
Deron


It's really tough to rank these guys; I find that really everything beneath Lebron is fairly fluid, especially from year to year. Sometimes it's clearly Wade, sometimes clearly Kobe. I think Paul was arguably the best player in the league in 08 and 09 (not definitively, but probably #2 or #3 at worst in those seasons, especially 09, and it's criminal how poor his team is and how he's being wasted).

Anyway, 22+/10 Yao is a 36-ish mpg player who's being used as a first option and anchoring a good defense, which radically changes his positioning because he's The Man, as opposed to a really valuable second player.

Didn't know it was that big of a difference...I think the only reason why he was 20/9 was because his passers were inferior, Brooks is a very poor passer compared to Rafer Alston. They have no good entry passers that season for Yao which is why his numbers dropped, including his minutes.

So 22/10+ Yao is better than Dwight eh?

WorthyBlitz42 wrote:Didn't know it was that big of a difference...I think the only reason why he was 20/9 was because his passers were inferior, Brooks is a very poor passer compared to Rafer Alston. They have no good entry passers that season for Yao which is why his numbers dropped, including his minutes.

So 22/10+ Yao is better than Dwight eh?

It's not the stats that make the difference, it's how the player is being used. Yao being used as a 20/9 player is probably playing 33 mpg and isn't having the offense run through him. He's being played that way to preserve his health and saving him up for the playoffs.

22+/10 Yao is playing the kind of minutes I don't believe he has the physical ability to actually play over an 82 game season, so it's kind of like saying "what if Dwight had Dirk's jumper." Yeah, if Yao proves he can be healthy for 77+ games while playing 36-38 mpg and acting as a first-option scorer, I'd say he's better than Dwight because of his offensive utility, which is meaningful because he's a comparably efficient scorer to Dwight despite not drawing fouls or finishing around the rim at the same rate.

Making a comparison between two players after first eliminating the biggest weakness of one of those players, a weakness that is a major point of strength for the other no less, is absurd.

It's on par with asking "Who's better on offense: Yao or a version of Dwight Howard who shot 85% from the FT line?"

Yao is never healthy, so this thread is pretty pointless.

WorthyBlitz42 wrote:

kookie_819 wrote:Irrelevant topic, Yao will likely never be healthy again.

But if he was healthy, I would have Dwight just slightly above him.

Sorry, but you mis-spelled Yao with Dwight.

No, not really. I would really take Dwight (only slightly though) above Yao.

Dwight's a considerably better rebounder and the better shot blocker. Yao's great on offense and has a solid midrange jumper, but Dwight is no slouch either. Dwight's still good for 20 a game on 60% shooting while drawing 10+ free throws a game, which is insane in terms of efficiency.

But again, Yao neither is nor ever will be healthy, so this topic is just another "what if" thread I guess.
I counter this thread with "Broken Yao Ming vs. Dwight Howard with the Dream Shake"

And P.S., stop attempting to insult an entire team just because you can't come up with a counterargument. It's childish and frankly quite insulting.

Dwight Howard versus Yao Ming
9 head-to-head games total


Dwight: 12.2 ppg
Yao: 23.6 ppg

Dwight: 45.1% FG
Yao: 56.1% FG

Dwight: 9.8 rpg
Yao: 10.4 rpg

Dwight: 1.7 bpg
Yao: 2.1 bpg

Dwight: 2 wins
Yao: 7 wins

Dwight: Made only 5 field goals (or less) in all but two games
Yao: Was never held to only 5 field goals at all

Dwight: Shot better than 50% FG only once
Yao: Shot less than 50% FG only twice

Dwight: Curls up in a fetal position whenever he sees Yao
Yao: Salivates whenever he sees Dwight


Scientific Conclusion: Dwight Howard is Yao's bitch

kookie_819 wrote:

WorthyBlitz42 wrote:

kookie_819 wrote:Irrelevant topic, Yao will likely never be healthy again.

But if he was healthy, I would have Dwight just slightly above him.

Sorry, but you mis-spelled Yao with Dwight.

No, not really. I would really take Dwight (only slightly though) above Yao.

Dwight's a considerably better rebounder and the better shot blocker. Yao's great on offense and has a solid midrange jumper, but Dwight is no slouch either. Dwight's still good for 20 a game on 60% shooting while drawing 10+ free throws a game, which is insane in terms of efficiency.

But again, Yao neither is nor ever will be healthy, so this topic is just another "what if" thread I guess.
I counter this thread with "Broken Yao Ming vs. Dwight Howard with the Dream Shake"

And P.S., stop attempting to insult an entire team just because you can't come up with a counterargument. It's childish and frankly quite insulting.

Dwight can't create his own shot against elite post defenders because, well he has no offense. Yao is better, when healthy.

tsherkin wrote:Top 10? Well, let's see...

Lebron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Steve Nash, Kevin Durant, Chris Bosh, Deron Williams and Tim Duncan comprise the list of the guys I think of as the best players in the league, and Yao certainly fits into that group. Amare just misses, but a healthy Gilbert Arenas, should we ever see such a creature again, at least threatens to enter that group when he's not playing like a (Please Use More Appropriate Word), because he's an explosive scorer and a diverse talent.

Interesting. Where do you rank Roy?

BlackIce wrote:

tsherkin wrote:Top 10? Well, let's see...

Lebron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Steve Nash, Kevin Durant, Chris Bosh, Deron Williams and Tim Duncan comprise the list of the guys I think of as the best players in the league, and Yao certainly fits into that group. Amare just misses, but a healthy Gilbert Arenas, should we ever see such a creature again, at least threatens to enter that group when he's not playing like a (Please Use More Appropriate Word), because he's an explosive scorer and a diverse talent.

Interesting. Where do you rank Roy?

You come to this thread to talk about Roy? Ok, Sorry I had to get that out of the way, Who do you think is better when healthy? Yao vs Dwight?

I'll always pick at tsherkin's brain when I get the chance, and the one thing that stood out in this thread was no Roy in his top 10. Didn't mean to derail your thread. Clearly you think a healthy Yao is better, you seem to be a big fan of his.

IMO both healthy I lean towards Yao, barely. The biggest advantage Yao has over Howard is elite FT%, and versatility on offense (Yao has a great post game, and mid range game). But I'm not sure we are even going to see Yao play 82 regular season games + playoffs again, so it may be a moot point. I think Yao is very likeable and I hope he has no health issues heading into next season. But considering age and durability, Howard is the much safer bet.

I think in certain situations, Yao and Dwight are pretty close defensively, I really like Yao's presence in teh paint, but he has huge exploitable weaknesses that some teams can really hit.

Dwight is a massively better rebounder, and he's more versatile defensively without any real glaring weakness there.

On the flip side, Yao can hurt you in a variety of ways scoring, and while he might not hit some teams as hard offensively in the paint, he can score on anyone one on one, and you won't see him taken out of some games by single coverage, you have to throw the house at him to keep him off his game consistently.

Dwight is still more valuable because you can play him close to 40 minutes all year, pound the ball into him as much as you want, have him guard 4's or 5's, have him rebound, and he won't miss virtually any time on the court.

BlackIce wrote:I'll always pick at tsherkin's brain when I get the chance, and the one thing that stood out in this thread was no Roy in his top 10. Didn't mean to derail your thread. Clearly you think a healthy Yao is better, you seem to be a big fan of his.

IMO both healthy I lean towards Yao, barely. The biggest advantage Yao has over Howard is elite FT%, and versatility on offense (Yao has a great post game, and mid range game). But I'm not sure we are even going to see Yao play 82 regular season games + playoffs again, so it may be a moot point. I think Yao is very likeable and I hope he has no health issues heading into next season. But considering age and durability, Howard is the much safer bet.

It's cool, but yeah, I'm a fan of Roy, but I don't think he's Top 10 either.....I thought he had a good argument for Top 10 last season though. Guys like Durant, Deron and Melo jumped in the discussion so guys like Roy and Duncan got kicked out.

This was my list after the 08-09 season.
1. Kobe/Lebron
2. Lebron/Kobe
3. Wade
4. Paul
5. Duncan
6. Yao
7. Dwight
8. Dirk
9. Garnett
10. Deron/Roy/Melo

My list after the 09-10 season. (I won't count a healthy Yao, but will for Cp3 here)
1. Lebron/Kobe
2. Kobe/Lebron
3. Wade
4. Paul
5. Deron
6. Durant
7. Dwight
8. Melo
9. Dirk
10. Gasol/Nash/Roy

I prefer Gasol and Nash over Roy though, at least shown in the 09-10 season I did.

The last season Yao was Healthy was 08-09 when he played 77 games.

In that season Dwight:

scored more than Yao, more efficiently,
grabbed more rebounds,
blocked more shots,
garnered more steal,
had a slightly worse offensive rating,
a significantly better defensive rating,
significantly more win shares
a better PER
was 1st team all-NBA over Yao
Made a defensive team and was DPOY
Higher MVP shares