RealGM Top 100 List #55

[Dr Positivity]

Re: Jones' missed games - Sample size seems pretty small. Missed games per is about 1, 1, 1, 4 and 13, 9 and 9 in his biggest seasons, which is still too little for me considering how much opponents play their part in that +/-

[Dr Positivity]

Wanted to say something regarding Pau and Parish comments recently by penbeast0, with concerns about how 'dominant' they felt. I agree it's a concern, but I do think a player who's the best at something but then has a major hole can feel more dominant than a player who is not better than everyone else at an aspect of the game but has no holes. I think Paul Pierce, who got voted in a long time ago, is in the Pau/Parish zone of "not that dominant". But the guy marks every checkbox which has its own value. Pau is the closest thing to Pierce for big men to me in terms of doing almost anything you can ask for, but none at a 'wow' level

[TMACFORMVP]

Vote: Bob Lanier
Nominate: Robert Parish (not sure of this)

[penbeast0]

Wanted to say something regarding Pau and Parish comments recently by penbeast0, with concerns about how 'dominant' they felt. I agree it's a concern, but I do think a player who's the best at something but then has a major hole can feel more dominant than a player who is not better than everyone else at an aspect of the game but has no holes. I think Paul Pierce, who got voted in a long time ago, is in the Pau/Parish zone of "not that dominant". But the guy marks every checkbox which has its own value. Pau is the closest thing to Pierce for big men to me in terms of doing almost anything you can ask for, but none at a 'wow' level

I certainly agree, just think Bobby Jones's defense is more of a "wow" factor than Gasol's offense and that he was a better player . . . though he suffers from the Manu factor of limited minutes at a high level diminishing his impact.

[Laimbeer]

Doesn't Schayes pretty clearly rate over Sam Jones? Jones was a cog in a dynasty, but hardly the impact player Schayes was. 12 staright all-stars, six first teams, top 5 or 6 in scoring and rebounding like 10 or 12 years. It's like comparing Barkley to Ray Allen.

Nominate: Schayes
Vote: Lanier

[therealbig3]

ElGee, you don't care much about Carter for his last 5 or 6 years...so basically his entire Nets career? That's strange, considering he clearly was at his best in NJ. He was creating for others better than ever, and he was generally a more efficient scorer. He had like two years in Toronto when he was a legitimate star, 00 and 01. He had 3.5 seasons like that in NJ...and that half season in 05 was by far the best basketball he had ever played, he was called the best player in the league in the 2nd half of the season by a lot of people, and it was in large part because of his explosion that the Nets made the playoffs that year.

[ElGee]

Carter - let me clarify. 2007 might be the last year I have interest in him. He plays fairly well at times in nj but there was a never a time when I thought he was a top 10 player there, let alone best in league.

Mufasa - I don't really understand what ft/FgA ratio has got to do w much here. If the best version of Wes Matthews ever also does it for many years, hell yes that's a good player. And the mid 60s celtics shot very free throws due to style/makeup. They played fast, but they jacked a lot pf jumpers and weren't in the penalty much. I don't see this as an issue, especially when you said sam doesn't really score at the hoop and he clearly does (and 8 fta per game at peAk in ps is plenty solid)

[Dr Positivity]

It was in response to the Jones isn't like Rip/Jones gets to the FT line 7x a game comment, which alluded to FT numbers supporting Jones being more of an attack the rim player and not a jumpshot guy like Rip - But whether or not he was, the FT numbers don't support that because Rip's are better

[Dr Positivity]

I like the idea of Penny getting mentioned as we're well in the 3 superstar years = enough range, but are we sure he deserves to go over Kevin Durant? Durant IMO has an even better first 4 years and then all that's left for Penny is non all-star 99 and 00 play and I don't care a ton about non prime years in this project

[ThaRegul8r]

Not in on Sam Jones. Skillset wise he was looks a lot like Rip Hamilton, statistically he looks like Rip Hamilton before 31 and considering the fast pace actually takes a much lower load for his team (Rip always led the Pistons in FGA by a large margin, Sam only had one year where he distanced himself from the pack) Looks like a duck, smells like a duck, I think the guy is Rip Hamilton.

Sam jones plays nothing like rip Hamilton.

Mar. 28, 1967, Jones set a Celtics record by scoring 51 points in a 118-109 Boston win over the New York Knicks in Game 4 of the Eastern Division Semifinals. “Sam made 19 of 30 shots, running his defenders into so many screens they must have felt like they had green dye on their noses.”

“Sam Jones knows how to use everybody on the court, using screens and picks to get free. Given a fraction of an inch, he flips a shot off the backboard. More often than not it’s two points, and Sam, grinning, is heading back downcourt, swinging his fist over his head.”

“Sam Jones was a great player, a scorer who used to come off screens, use all the angles. He was like a modern-day Tim Duncan the way he used the glass.”

“He’s on a team where they work for him. Our team is balanced. We’re a team all the way. We don’t work for one guy. Sam doesn’t really have to work for his shots. They work for him. He’s strictly offense.”

It was in response to the Jones isn't like Rip/Jones gets to the FT line 7x a game comment, which alluded to FT numbers supporting Jones being more of an attack the rim player and not a jumpshot guy like Rip

This is what comes from solely depending on stats without actually bothering to take a look back at the time he actually played to attempt to find out how he played like.

[ronnymac2]

English and Lanier are my candidates. If Alex English was the guy I entrusted with iso creation and playmaking, I don't think my team offense would be that awesome. Point-forward skills aren't something I saw with Alex. He didn't need to give me Grant Hill/Scottie Pippen-level playmaking and ball-handling, just Vince Carter. English feels more like Paul Pierce than anything, with lesser defense and range.

That said, I'm still a big fan of English. The only reason I wrote the above paragraph was to justify Lanier over English. If English was more of a creator, I'd be inclined to think the gap between English and Lanier offensively was quite large. But he's not, so I don't. While Lanier wasn't an amazing defender, I believe he was better than English, who was merely a good perimeter defender with no defining defensive quality.

I'll take Lanier's greater 2-way impact in this situation.

As for the nomination, it came down to Jones, Greer, Parish, Carter, and Penny. I'm going to go with Vince, but barely. This group of players is bunched tightly together imo.

Vote: Bob Lanier

Nominate: Vince Carter

[ronnymac2]

I like the idea of Penny getting mentioned as we're well in the 3 superstar years = enough range, but are we sure he deserves to go over Kevin Durant? Durant IMO has an even better first 4 years and then all that's left for Penny is non all-star 99 and 00 play and I don't care a ton about non prime years in this project

Durant is below the likes of Penny and the above players I mentioned. Rookie KD is nothing special. The next two years are great, but he only has one playoff appearance, and while I think he played pretty well, he shot horribly, which is something a guy like him can't afford to do since that's his calling hard.

So you're looking at 2011 as a truly complete year. It was great- top5-ish.

I don't think those four years are enough just yet.

However, I must say, the fact that I was compelled to look into this makes me think Durant isn't too far away at this point.

[penbeast0]

Lanier is in, I will switch my nomination to Sam Jones; there are several candidates I see here and he was certainly one of the leaders . . . and I'd rather not leave it a 5-way tie.

VOTING

Alex English -- penbeast0

Wes Unseld – Fencer, JordansBulls, lukekarts

Bob Lanier – Dr Mufasa, Snakebites, therealbig3, ElGee, DavidStern, FJS, TMACFORMVP, Laimbeer, ronnymac2




NOMINATE

Bobby Jones – DavidStern

Sam Jones – Fencer, ElGee, penbeast0,

Robert Parish – Dr Mufasa, TMACFORMVP

Dikembe Mutombo – Snakebites

Vince Carter – therealbig3, ronnymac2

Penny Hardaway – JordansBulls

James Worthy — FJS, lukekarts

Dolph Schayes – Laimbeer