In your all time list: Wilt or Bird

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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#21 » by ElGee » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:14 pm

MisterWestside wrote:
All told, at EVERY step of the way we see evidence that continues to suggest that Chamberlain, despite putting up big Raw Box numbers, was not helping the team's offense to a large degree.


I always enjoy reading your posts, but do you think that this is necessarily a flaw with Wilt, or team strategy and construct?

I could be a good basketball player. But if I play alongside someone who at least appears to be a better scorer than I am, I'd probably feed him the ball more often too, and tend to do more ball-watching instead of playing as I usually would. In a world of perfect game theory, this should allow other players to pick their spots on the floor and become more efficient (and there's ample evidence for that), but of course the ways in which teams work with their stars can be a factor in offensive output.


Well, if you are suggesting that in the 1960's, people were more prone to ball-watching because one guy was so good one-on-one, you might have some traction to work with. I have no idea if that's more plausible than today, but I can see an era argument to be made.

In general, it's clearly a flaw with the player though. "Goodness" is application of skillset and how that impacts the Global Offense and Defense. Basketball isn't a 1-on-1 game. This is EXACTLY why everyone should be thinking about the way in which in a volume scorer impacts the game (not all volume scorers are created equal). Portability is key -- how well can you IMPACT a variety of good teams -- and volume scorers often aren't that Portable, especially The Isolationists.

Carmelo Anthony is a great example today. Or Adrian Dantley in the 80's.

These are great 1 on 1 players, but the Global impact isn't there because they can't elevate their teammate scoring opportunities. So what you'll see is something like this from many volume scorers-- what I've referred to as Iverson's Law in the past:

-volume scorer joins bad offense that has no shot creators
-volume scorer helps make bad offense roughly average

-same volume scorer joins average offense
-same volume scorer does not improve average offense by much, or any, at all

(Look at this study http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9497 -- you can note that on 150 sub 107 ORTG teams, losing the inefficient volume scorer hurts the offense by an average of 2.8 points/100. On the 56 107+ ORTG teams, the team got BETTER by 3.7 points/100.)

Why does this happen?

Because there is only one ball; Offensive success in basketball isn't a summation of all 5 player's abilities to win a 1-on-1 game. On bad teams, having someone who can score 1-on-1 gives the team a reliable scoring option, but that scoring option often alone isn't enough to bolster efficiency through the roof. In other words, great 1-on-1 scorers don't shoot 70% while bad ones shoot 30%. The differences are much smaller. This means in the team dynamic, adding such a player will help a bad club. But on teams where they are already at that level of scoring, adding such a player might not help much at all, because to get to that level, players need to be helping other players score in some way.

I'll provide an example here to illustrate this...

---------
Bad Team
-Other 4 players barely help each other score more because they aren't very good.
-Add 5th player who is the same.

Let's say the team's overall TS% gets to 52% with all 5. With 3 and 2 super scrubs, it's 51%. With 4 and a super scrub, it's 51.5%. All 5 hit 52%. Offensive Rating -- assuming constant LA TOV% and OREB% rates -- is 103.8 (-3.4 in 2011).

--Now replace 5th player with a volume scorer who has no impact on what the other players do because he just plays 1-on-1. He shoots 58% TS and takes 25 True shots a game.

Team's overall ORtg would then jump to to 106.3 (-0.9) by adding this 29 ppg 58% TS player if that player had no impact on his teammate's getting good shots.

No volume scorer: 103.8 ORtg (-3.4)
Add volume scorer: 106.3 ORtg (-0.9)

Good Team
-Other 4 players shoot 55% TS and each help each other get open shots, marginally
-Add 5th player who is exactly the same

Let's say that makes the overall TS% 55%. To get to above average, these players are helping each other get good shots. 3 of them and 2 scrubs might shoot 52%. 4 and 1 scrub 53.5% and all 5 hit 55%. Each uses his marginal ability to score to help his teammates score.

--Now replace 5th player with a volume scorer who has no impact on what the other players do because he just plays 1-on-1. He shoots 58% TS and takes 25 True shots a game.

This might make the other 4 players shoot 53.5%, as it did with the scrub on the court. It also could quite easily make them shoot worse, because while the scrub didn't score or create, he also didn't touch the basketball much. He didn't occupy possessions the way the volume scorer does. Nonetheless, let's assume the number stays at 53.5% for the other 4 players.

No volume scorer: 109.7 ORtg (+2.5)
Add volume scorer: 109.2 ORtg (+2.0)

Voila. The exact same, 29 ppg 58% TS player that so clearly helped a bad offense team by not impacting his teammates one bit will actually hurt a good offensive team by not impacting his teammates one bit.

Note, this would never happen if the volume scorer was good enough. He could play 1-on-1, and impact any team basically. Take the exact same scenario above but make the volume scorer a 70% TSer (would average 35 ppg). Even at still 25 TSA's per game, the numbers would then go:

Bad team new ORtg: 112.8 (+5.6)
Good team new ORtg: 115.7 (+8.5)
-----------

So coming back to Wilt, (1) I don't see evidence that he created well. (2) There is NO evidence that he volume scored like the video game I just described, despite pace inflating the numbers for people to gawk at for decades. And it's most certainly a problem with the player that he doesn't get better shots for his teammates -- that's his own lack of understanding of playing -- and it's something that doesn't plague great offensive players, like Larry Bird.
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#22 » by CBB_Fan » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:55 pm

So coming back to Wilt, (1) I don't see evidence that he created well. (2) There is NO evidence that he volume scored like the video game I just described, despite pace inflating the numbers for people to gawk at for decades. And it's most certainly a problem with the player that he doesn't get better shots for his teammates -- that's his own lack of understanding of playing -- and it's something that doesn't plague great offensive players, like Larry Bird.


The main reason I put Wilt above Bird in 2 posts ago was that he wasn't just "low post Carmelo Anthony." He was also one of the most impactful defensive players of all-time. Don't get me wrong, he wouldn't be a good defender today, and he was nowhere near the defensive player Russell was, but he still had an undeniable affect on that end. Unfortunately, we don't have the statistics we'd need to compare him with today's players, but I think it is fair to say that he was one of the best defensive players of his times in terms of impact, while Larry Bird was probably average or slightly above average.

That said, Larry Bird has one attribute that is light years ahead of Wilt. His basketball IQ was simply off the charts, while Wilt was one of the more boneheaded players ever to be a star in the league. Take away Bird's smarts, and he is a 6'9 Steve Nash without the creating abilities (a good player, with a great shot and decent rebounds/assists, but not a superstar). He always knew what the correct play was or what to do, while Wilt spent most of his career guessing blindly at what he needed to do until something stuck (shooting underhanded FTs, focusing on differing stats, etc.) The IQ made him a much better defender than his physical traits should have made him
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#23 » by Laimbeer » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:08 am

@ elgee - if that is your criteria for judging players, doesn't that make Wilt just average?
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#24 » by MisterWestside » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:59 am

(Look at this study http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9497 -- you can note that on 150 sub 107 ORTG teams, losing the inefficient volume scorer hurts the offense by an average of 2.8 points/100. On the 56 107+ ORTG teams, the team got BETTER by 3.7 points/100.)


I think I've read this before actually; it's interesting research. Certainly makes sense and falls in line with the fundamental concepts of basketball.

Your post is insightful overall, but where does Wilt fall? Players like Iverson and Melo are whom I would consider to be "volume" scorers - isn't Wilt someone who often took a bunch of shots and scored efficiently? And wouldn't defenses react accordingly?

The way I would see Wilt being a drag on his team's offense is if he was a turnover machine.
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#25 » by ElGee » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:31 am

MisterWestside wrote:
(Look at this study http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9497 -- you can note that on 150 sub 107 ORTG teams, losing the inefficient volume scorer hurts the offense by an average of 2.8 points/100. On the 56 107+ ORTG teams, the team got BETTER by 3.7 points/100.)


I think I've read this before actually; it's interesting research. Certainly makes sense and falls in line with the fundamental concepts of basketball.

Your post is insightful overall, but where does Wilt fall? Players like Iverson and Melo are whom I would consider to be "volume" scorers - isn't Wilt someone who often took a bunch of shots and scored efficiently? And wouldn't defenses react accordingly?


Well, I've never mentioned his defense. If I made Wilt a neutral offensive player in my rankings, he'd still be in the top-40 alone from defense.

On offense I do question his effectiveness. But to be clear, I'm presenting scenarios without passing and Wilt COULD pass. Wilt DID create, to a small degree. However, not many teams were doubling him -- I've read reports that the Celtics were really the only team who would play team strategies against him in the post (hey, there's that Russell genius thing again). But a key thing to understand isn't whether a player is not getting his teammates ANY shots (as outlined in my last hypothetical), but to what degree he's getting them good shots.

I think Wilt's impact is larger on weaker teams. I don't think it scales well when he volume scores. I think his non-volume scoring impact on good teams was pretty good, but I'm not sure how good. To credit a Doc MJ theory, did teams just adapt in 1968 knowing he would pass more? What the heck happened in 1969? It's definitely confusing.

So where does that leave Wilt on offense? I think that from 1960-1966, Wilt's offensive peak was below every player in my top-25 except for David Robinson and Scottie Pippen. I think it was slightly better than Patrick Ewing's offensive peak. Facilitator Wilt was slightly better in 67 and 68, but primarily because he scaled to better teams as a creator.
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#26 » by MisterWestside » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:54 am

^Hmm. Still seems odd that a player who scored those points with league-leading efficiencies would not be doubled, or at least attract a bit more defensive attention. I'm thinking someone like Bynum or Howard today who could give you similar Wilt-like output, except Bynum is often set up more for his buckets and Howard is not as polished offensively.

All good information; I'm just still wrapping my mind around this.

EDIT: Just looking at Wilt's rookie season, he didn't play with reliable teammates. Looking at the offensive WS of Wilt's teammates - both with and without Wilt - they were either subpar or wildly inconsistent throughout their careers. Some players like Rodgers achived a brief period of success without Wilt, only to fall back to their usual levels of ineptitude. Arizin was the team's lone offensive force outside of Wilt, and even he swung from 10.5 -> 5.5 -> 10 before Wilt joined the Warriors (that, and he was also playing in his 30s. He dropped again from 10 to 5.5 in Wilt's rookie season). Sauldsberry might have played less minutes, but he still managed to cost his team over 4 wins on offense; then, while playing for a brand new team in St. Louis in '60 (alongside Bob Pettit), he cost the Hawks over 5 wins on offense. Ouch.

It would also be nice if there were on-off numbers to show how Wilt's team played without him in the lineup during the same season.
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#27 » by The Infamous1 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:30 pm

Bird, Wilts overrated.( bird is too but not as much)
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#28 » by JordansBulls » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:51 pm

The Infamous1 wrote:Bird, Wilts overrated.( bird is too but not as much)

Overrated in what sense?
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#29 » by ElGee » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:49 pm

MisterWestside wrote:^Hmm. Still seems odd that a player who scored those points with league-leading efficiencies would not be doubled, or at least attract a bit more defensive attention. I'm thinking someone like Bynum or Howard today who could give you similar Wilt-like output, except Bynum is often set up more for his buckets and Howard is not as polished offensively.

All good information; I'm just still wrapping my mind around this.

EDIT: Just looking at Wilt's rookie season, he didn't play with reliable teammates. Looking at the offensive WS of Wilt's teammates - both with and without Wilt - they were either subpar or wildly inconsistent throughout their careers. Some players like Rodgers achived a brief period of success without Wilt, only to fall back to their usual levels of ineptitude. Arizin was the team's lone offensive force outside of Wilt, and even he swung from 10.5 -> 5.5 -> 10 before Wilt joined the Warriors (that, and he was also playing in his 30s. He dropped again from 10 to 5.5 in Wilt's rookie season). Sauldsberry might have played less minutes, but he still managed to cost his team over 4 wins on offense; then, while playing for a brand new team in St. Louis in '60 (alongside Bob Pettit), he cost the Hawks over 5 wins on offense. Ouch.

It would also be nice if there were on-off numbers to show how Wilt's team played without him in the lineup during the same season.


Well, we have that in 1965 and 1970 for in/out. The numbers aren't good. 1965 gives us two teams and 1970 gives us 12 games (30 if we use the PS)...these are actually pretty good samples that would have very strong correlation to the in/out numbers if we use the 1970 PS. When we do that, we get:

1965 SF +2.4 SRS (-6.6 to -4.3)
1965 Phi +1.0 SRS (-0.3 to 0.6)
1970 LA RS only -0.1 (1.8 to 1.8)
1970 LA +PS +3.1 (1.6 TO 4.7)

The 1970 with PS included is the best Wilt looks in any season-so-season, or in-out within-season analysis we can run over his career. The only downside for Wilt, unfortunately, is that West missed some time in the RS when he was out of the lineup, and returned for the PS. WITH West (no Wilt), the Lakers were +3.8 SRS. WIth Wilt and West, they were +4.7. So the jump is +0.9 SRS points. :/

Also, be careful with how you use WS in this context. The Arizin "dip" year (1958) you are referring to was very much based on his bad shooting. He did not shoot poorly in 1960 however...and furthermore, to the point, we'd want to see his shooting go UP, as we see SO OFTEN when stars are paired with other stars. And yes, there needs to be some mental curving for him aging another year...but how much?

As for the others (Sauldsberry et al), no one is saying these guys were very good. But you'd have to imagine like a -10 to -15, Garnett-Timberwolves level of beyond historical incompetence for the team around Wilt to appreciate him "raising" the offense his rookie season to below-average levels. There are two reasons why this is essentially an impossibility:

(1) No team at that time came close to exhibiting such offensive futility. They would have been outliers among outliers.
(2) The team continuity from 59 to 60 was similar enough that we would have to see, again, statistically unlikely changes in one season from all the players that we don't really spot anywhere else in NBA history.
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#30 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:49 pm

ardee wrote:It's driving me absolutely crazy. I'm a huge Chamberlain fan, but I simply can't pick between him and Bird. I'm trying to put together my all time list for an article, but I can't decide between these two. Whom do you pick higher?


Bird without hesitation.
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#31 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:00 pm

So looks like ElGee is already making the arguments I'd make here.

What we see when we look in depth at team effects with Wilt is that there's a shocking lack of offensive success for most of his career. I understand the contingent who is essentially not willing to put much stock in evidence like this compared to what they consider the more concrete numbers (points, FG%, etc), but at the very least people need to see the contradictions here.

Then you've got to really give an answer to what Hannum did in '67:

He took the player most felt to be the best scorer ever by a wide margin, and made him the team's last scoring option (when the starter were in). Put yourself in his place. Think about coaches of today and how risk averse they were. Now ask: Is there ANY WAY Hannum does this if he isn't seeing a gigantic problem with how the offense is playing?

Of course not. And when you see that immediately after this happened the team's offense went through the roof, how can you say he was wrong?

Now, notice I said the problem was with the offense, not with Wilt alone. Wilt shouldn't get all the blame here, however, it's unreasonable to look at those results and talk as if there wasn't a big problem with the Wilt-first approach they were using, and if the problem was only about Wilt's teammates, Hannum wouldn't have made Wilt change his play so much.
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#32 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:08 pm

ElGee wrote:I think Wilt's impact is larger on weaker teams. I don't think it scales well when he volume scores. I think his non-volume scoring impact on good teams was pretty good, but I'm not sure how good. To credit a Doc MJ theory, did teams just adapt in 1968 knowing he would pass more? What the heck happened in 1969? It's definitely confusing.


Right, and the post-'67 years provide us with more things to consider, which make the analysis even harder.

One theory of Wilt of course is that he was an even better distributor than scorer once that was his job, and that's why the '67 offense did so well. But if that were the case, one would expect that the new strategy would have worked long term. In actuality, the team's offense really fell off in '68.

'69 is then even more disturbing because you would assume that Wilt would be able to have significant offensive impact being thrown on to any team simply because of his ability to provide 2nd chances to the team. Instead, nothing happens. Or rather, we see Wilt appearing to put up individual rebounding numbers that would lead to obvious improvement, but like in his earlier days, his teammates mysteriously get worse to make up for that.

At the very least what we can say is that Wilt was simply never a sure thing in terms of helping teams. Take that for what you will in terms of how damning that is.
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#33 » by JordansBulls » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:50 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
ardee wrote:It's driving me absolutely crazy. I'm a huge Chamberlain fan, but I simply can't pick between him and Bird. I'm trying to put together my all time list for an article, but I can't decide between these two. Whom do you pick higher?


Bird without hesitation.

Where do you rank Wilt now?
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#34 » by Dipper 13 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:23 am

but to what degree he's getting them good shots.


So you don't think those scoop handoffs he was known for in Philadelphia (which nearly always led to point blank layups) constituted getting his teammates good shots? Good example here below at 7:35 mark, though Russell quickly switches to force the miss. You can see KC's age as well as Greer leaves him in the dust.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq87va



The Sixers were known for scoring the majority of their field goals in the paint. I bet you every team Wilt ever played on led the league in points scored in the paint.


Christian Science Monitor - Apr 8, 1966

Philadelphia replaced its old basket and backboard setup before the season with a single post model. This post has a steel finger coming off the top which holds both backboard and basket in a very rigid position. And this is perfect for a physically powerful team like the 76ers, who score so many of their baskets in close, and who depend so heavily on Chamberlain for the turnaround dunk. But a tight hoop should work against the Celtics' outside shooters. The ball also rebounds differently on this type of backboard. It is usually a very active rebound, generally high and often deep.




Doctor MJ wrote:'69 is then even more disturbing because you would assume that Wilt would be able to have significant offensive impact being thrown on to any team simply because of his ability to provide 2nd chances to the team. Instead, nothing happens. Or rather, we see Wilt appearing to put up individual rebounding numbers that would lead to obvious improvement, but like in his earlier days, his teammates mysteriously get worse to make up for that.



Maybe his defensive rebounding improved out of necessity? What Butch did was pull him away from the basket to stand at the foul line and set picks. This while not using him as a playmaker as Hannum did. In '68 they were a great "shooting" team who fit perfectly on the court & had excellent chemistry off it, In '69 they lost not only Clark & Imhoff, but also Goodrich.

How effective do you think Shaq would be playing almost exclusively at the foul line (high post) without the ball in his hands?


Doctor MJ wrote:Take that for what you will in terms of how damning that is.


If true, all this tells me is he was born too early, well ahead of his time in terms of physical talent and often underutilized due to the often primitive strategies. He would be much more effective in say the 90's.



Laimbeer wrote:criteria for judging players, doesn't that make Wilt just average?


That's ultimately what they are pushing for. Before we know it the question will be who replaces Wilt in the top 50.


MisterWestside wrote:^Hmm. Still seems odd that a player who scored those points with league-leading efficiencies would not be doubled, or at least attract a bit more defensive attention. I'm thinking someone like Bynum or Howard today who could give you similar Wilt-like output, except Bynum is often set up more for his buckets and Howard is not as polished offensively.



So you think Bynum can give you similar statistical production to Wilt in any category? Please explain yourself.
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#35 » by MisterWestside » Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:35 am

So you think Bynum can give you similar statistical production to Wilt in any category? Please explain yourself.


Don't get me wrong; I'm more with you in this debate :lol: I was simply thinking of what Bunum or Howard would be like if they had Wilt's ability. Can anyone honestly imagine how that player would not help his team today offensively? Especially at the modern-day devoid center position? And with players who know how to shoot the ball?

I read ElGee's posts and learn a lot; I value Doctor MJ's insight on these boards. But I'm not sold on Wilt simply being a taller version of Melo/Iverson, players who actually score at volume by chucking inefficiently and hurt their offenses in the process. And I was one of those people who thought Wilt was overrated before learning statistics :lol:
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#36 » by Mavericksfan » Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:38 am

Since when wasn't Wilt doubled regularly back then? He was seeing double triple teams his entire life. Hell everything I've read has pointed to the Celtics being the only team that didn't double team him regularly.
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#37 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:34 am

JordansBulls wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
ardee wrote:It's driving me absolutely crazy. I'm a huge Chamberlain fan, but I simply can't pick between him and Bird. I'm trying to put together my all time list for an article, but I can't decide between these two. Whom do you pick higher?


Bird without hesitation.

Where do you rank Wilt now?


Last summer I rated him 13th. I haven't done a thorough re-evaluation since then.
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#38 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:36 am

MisterWestside wrote:I read ElGee's posts and learn a lot; I value Doctor MJ's insight on these boards. But I'm not sold on Wilt simply being a taller version of Melo/Iverson, players who actually score at volume by chucking inefficiently and hurt their offenses in the process. And I was one of those people who thought Wilt was overrated before learning statistics :lol:


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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#39 » by C-izMe » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:40 am

Who do you rank over Wilt, MJ? 13 seems too low (I have him in the 8-10 range).
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Re: In your all time list: Wilt or Bird 

Post#40 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:14 am

Dipper 13 wrote:If true, all this tells me is he was born too early, well ahead of his time in terms of physical talent and often underutilized due to the often primitive strategies. He would be much more effective in say the 90's.


Appreciate your thoughts on this, and yes, I think you've hit upon the key thing to think about here: Not whether Wilt was GOAT-worthy in his effectiveness (he wasn't) but whether he should have been if he had had decent coaches.

Personally, I don't think there's any doubt that Wilt played with some weak coaches, but what I find damning is the consistency of disappointment. Wilt literally never showed evidence of great offensive impact while volume scoring. This is kind of amazing given that I think most of us thought we saw major offensive effectiveness of the volume scorer on the playgrounds of elementary school with no coach at all. How unlucky can one man possibly be?

And how much more unlikely is it that said man had conflicts with his best prime coach and showed inclinations toward basketball apathy due to reasons that should be considered completely unrelated to his basketball career?

But all that said, I've believe for quite a while that Wilt would be more effective in later eras. I think strategic advance would help, but more importantly, I just think he'd have been a better player if he respected the NBA more (it was a just above barnstorming back then) and didn't care about showing off counterproductive skills. Dude probably doesn't do his Globetrotter-finesse moves so much if he's going up against someone stronger than he is (Shaq), so he might have taken more pride in his unique combination of talents.
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