Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki

[ahonui06]

Entire careers (or for the case of Dirk, career to date). It was more to emphasise the difference in their production in the RS to PS, rather than to directly compare their relative stats.

I think you should do one for primes too.

I think this comparison/debate is really about a better reliable shooter/scorer vs. a better all-around player. Is Malone's superior defense, rebounding, passing, etc. good enough to edge out Dirk's superior ability to create his own shot and his superior shooting ability?

Lightning - On the first page I did a breakdown of their stats through 14 seasons in the league for both of them which is pretty much their "prime".

P.S. I always put DIRK in caps to show the proper respect.

[Amare_1_Knicks]

Dirk is not a much better playoff performer at all. They have nearly identical numbers in the playoffs if you exclude his last year in L.A.

Malone; '86-'03 : 26.3PPG | 10.9RPG | 3.1APG | 46%FG

Dirk; '01-'12 : 25.9PPG | 10.3RPG | 2.6APG | 46%FG

Very comparable, and they both do raise their game in the playoffs.

[AshyLarry]

well, one reason to not though, is that malone has always the benefit of being set up by stockton, where as majority of dirk's ppg he created for himself. also he has no number two majority of his career

[AshyLarry]

im a dirk fan and a karl malone hater, but its malone. id still rather build around dirk though

If you rather build around DIRK then it's DIRK.

reason why i said id rather build around dirk is because, its been proven you can build around him, and he doesnt need much to win, a decent defensive center and some role players.

but malone's two MVP's, longevity, and stats, is plenty enough to put him as the number two GOAT PF for me. even with dirk's crazy post season and finals MVP.

so again
Duncan, Malone, Dirk, KG, Charles for me... all floating in top 20 players of all time

[Lightning25]

well, one reason to not though, is that malone has always the benefit of being set up by stockton, where as majority of dirk's ppg he created for himself. also he has no number two majority of his career

Well I think that is the thing though. Dirk wasn't as great of a finisher as Malone was so I don't believe he would benefit Stockton as much as Malone did. Malone is arguably the greatest finisher ever in NBA history or at least in the discussion while Dirk is most certainly not.

Dirk paired up with Nash pre-2005 (2001-2004) and he probably played better after he left.

[ahonui06]

Dirk is not a much better playoff performer at all. They have nearly identical numbers in the playoffs if you exclude his last year in L.A.

Malone; '86-'03 : 26.3PPG | 10.9RPG | 3.1APG | 46%FG

Dirk; '01-'12 : 25.9PPG | 10.3RPG | 2.6APG | 46%FG

Very comparable, and they both do raise their game in the playoffs.

No they don't. Malone's efficiency plummets in the playoffs. From 86-03 he shot 57.7 TS% in the regular season and then drops to 52.8 TS% in the postseason. He couldn't maintain his production against better competition in the postseason.

From 86-03, Malone took 18 shots in the regular season to get 25.4 PPG, but in the postseason he took 20.6 shots to only get 26.3PPG. On the other hand, DIRK took 16.8 shots to score 22.9 PPG in the regular season, but only 18.4 shots to score 25.9 PPG. DIRK scores only 0.4PPG less than Malone in the postseason and needs 3.2 less shots per game. The efficiency between these two in the postseason isn't even close.

DIRK shot 38% from 3 and 89% from the FT line during that stretch with a 58.4 TS%.

Malone shot 17% from 3 and 74% from the FT line during that stretch with a 52.8 TS%.

[Narigo]

Malone

I have Malone at 15 and Dirk at 18 so yeah its really close

[Amare_1_Knicks]

Dirk is not a much better playoff performer at all. They have nearly identical numbers in the playoffs if you exclude his last year in L.A.

Malone; '86-'03 : 26.3PPG | 10.9RPG | 3.1APG | 46%FG

Dirk; '01-'12 : 25.9PPG | 10.3RPG | 2.6APG | 46%FG

Very comparable, and they both do raise their game in the playoffs.

No they don't. Malone's efficiency plummets in the playoffs. From 86-03 he shot 57.7 TS% in the regular season and then drops to 52.8 TS% in the postseason. He couldn't maintain his production against better competition in the postseason.

From 86-03, Malone took 18 shots in the regular season to get 25.4 PPG, but in the postseason he took 20.6 shots to only get 26.3PPG. On the other hand, DIRK took 16.8 shots to score 22.9 PPG in the regular season, but only 18.4 shots to score 25.9 PPG. DIRK scores only 0.4PPG less than Malone in the postseason and needs 3.2 less shots per game. The efficiency between these two in the postseason isn't even close.

DIRK shot 38% from 3 and 89% from the FT line during that stretch with a 58.4 TS%.

Malone shot 17% from 3 and 74% from the FT line during that stretch with a 52.8 TS%.

The efficiency difference isn't as big as TS% would lead you to believe. Also, Malone's 3 point% is completely irrelevant because he didn't generally shoot those and the FT% difference isn't that big of a deal when it comes to their efficiency either -- Dirk's one of the best shooting big men, if not the best of all time, Malone's 74% is actually a good number for a big man.

Malone's FGA to PPG ratio in the playoffs does go up a bit from the regular season, but it has a lot to do with the help from his teammates( Or lack thereof ), but that's a different argument I'm not trying to get into.

[Wone]

Malone was better. It goes:

TD > KG > Malone > Dirk > Barkley

[kasino]

Malone
lead better teams
better rebounder/defender/passer
scored slightly less in the PS but clear better scorer in the RS

[ahonui06]

Dirk is not a much better playoff performer at all. They have nearly identical numbers in the playoffs if you exclude his last year in L.A.

Malone; '86-'03 : 26.3PPG | 10.9RPG | 3.1APG | 46%FG

Dirk; '01-'12 : 25.9PPG | 10.3RPG | 2.6APG | 46%FG

Very comparable, and they both do raise their game in the playoffs.

No they don't. Malone's efficiency plummets in the playoffs. From 86-03 he shot 57.7 TS% in the regular season and then drops to 52.8 TS% in the postseason. He couldn't maintain his production against better competition in the postseason.

From 86-03, Malone took 18 shots in the regular season to get 25.4 PPG, but in the postseason he took 20.6 shots to only get 26.3PPG. On the other hand, DIRK took 16.8 shots to score 22.9 PPG in the regular season, but only 18.4 shots to score 25.9 PPG. DIRK scores only 0.4PPG less than Malone in the postseason and needs 3.2 less shots per game. The efficiency between these two in the postseason isn't even close.

DIRK shot 38% from 3 and 89% from the FT line during that stretch with a 58.4 TS%.

Malone shot 17% from 3 and 74% from the FT line during that stretch with a 52.8 TS%.

The efficiency difference isn't as big as TS% would lead you to believe. Also, Malone's 3 point% is completely irrelevant because he didn't generally shoot those and the FT% difference isn't that big of a deal when it comes to their efficiency either -- Dirk's one of the best shooting big men, if not the best of all time, Malone's 74% is actually a good number for a big man.

Malone's FGA to PPG ratio in the playoffs does go up a bit from the regular season, but it has a lot to do with the help from his teammates( Or lack thereof ), but that's a different argument I'm not trying to get into.

You probably shouldn't bring up lack of help from teammates when comparing DIRK and Malone.

[kooldude]

Dirk after he figured out how to handle SF defenders, was a better player. Check out his last few yrs in the playoffs, unstoppable. I'll easily take that Dirk over Malone in the playoffs.

Obviously Malone for career but it's not in stone.

[AnaheimRoyale]

Karl Malone. Unlike Stockton, he's rated about right. A horrible human being, but a great player, and a better one than Dirk, even though it's very close.

[ahonui06]

Malone

lead better teams

False - DIRK is one of only 3 players to lead their teams to 50 straight wins over a decade. The others are Duncan's Spurs and Russell's Celtics. Additionally, DIRK led his team to a title and Malone never did.

better rebounder/defender/passer

Yes. Malone was the better rebounder and defender.

However, DIRK is a better passer than Malone quite easily. DIRK's spacing creates all sorts of opportunities for his team. DIRK also creates more of his own shots since he didn't have a HOF PG throughout his entire prime. DIRK passes very well out of double teams.

scored slightly less in the PS but clear better scorer in the RS

Malone is a lot less efficient than DIRK in the postseason which is a big deal. DIRK is a bettr scorer than Malone.

[lukekarts]

better rebounder/defender/passer

I disagree.

1. Rebounder - Dirk's playoff DRB% is 24.6%, which is actually great, higher than Malone's 23.3%, and Dirk's career average is actually higher than all but 3 of Malone's best defensive rebounding post-seaons.

2. Defender - Yeah this is Malones only real advantage

3. Passer - disagree, Malone's PS Ast:TOV ratio is 1.12, exactly the same as Dirk's. The key difference is that Malone is assisting more, but turning the ball over more. I'd much rather take the guy who turns the ball over less.

I'm surprised so many people say Malone still, considering Dirk has surpassed him in both on court performance and metrics for the statisticians; it's not like Dirk has had better team-mates either, and yet his team have had the same amount of RS success. And Dirk beat Miami in the Finals, a feat people love to underrate despite hating Miami for assembling a 'superteam'

[AnaheimRoyale]

Dirk had a great team, balanced and full of vets. Almost everyone on that team was way above average for their position. The Heat were held back by a number of factors- terrible depth, terrible balance, two of the worst starters in the NBA at the 1 and 5, mediocre coaching, 2 stars whose skill sets overlapped, lack of chemistry and experience playing with each other. All that combined to allow the Mavs to win (and of course, the Mavs played great, Dirk too).

But the Heat weren't expected to win a title in their first year anyway for all those reasons (and if you look at the ESPN and Vegas ratings at the start of the 2011 season, they confirm what I just said). So while, of course, Dirk should get credit for his magnificent season last year, it should be put in that context. The same Mavs probably wouldn't have made it past the Thunder this season, let alone the Heat. That statement will doubtless annoy some Dirk fans, but as a Spurs fan I'd urge you to be objective. I am a huge Duncan fan, but I have no problem conceding that the 2003 Spurs would have certainly lost to say the (much deeper and more talented) 08 Celtics, who were ridiculously stacked, while in 03 Duncan had pretty much nobody.

[kasino]

Malone

lead better teams

False - DIRK is one of only 3 players to lead their teams to 50 straight wins over a decade. The others are Duncan's Spurs and Russell's Celtics. Additionally, DIRK led his team to a title and Malone never did.

better rebounder/defender/passer

Yes. Malone was the better rebounder and defender.

However, DIRK is a better passer than Malone quite easily. DIRK's spacing creates all sorts of opportunities for his team. DIRK also creates more of his own shots since he didn't have a HOF PG throughout his entire prime. DIRK passes very well out of double teams.

scored slightly less in the PS but clear better scorer in the RS

Malone is a lot less efficient than DIRK in the postseason which is a big deal. DIRK is a bettr scorer than Malone.

Malone lead 57 win teams for 13 years
Dirk lead 55 win teams
so Malone

from apg to AST% in the RS and PS Malone is better then Dirk throughout more years in the league
Malone
Dirk is 2apg at 11AST%
Malone at 3apg at 15%

well through their first 12 PS Malone is a 26.3 scorer
so he is also a better scorer then Dirk

and Luke everything your looking at with Malone is over a longer RS and PS career then Dirk if you shorten it to how many years Dirk played Malone comes out greater in every aspect

[The Infamous1]

The revionist history on the 11' Mavs is hilarious and lol at the heat not being expected to beat them, they were HEAVY favorites.

The Mavs were Dirk, and aside from Tyson who sucks on offense past their prime role players.

Usually the revionist history happens 3 to 4 years after a title team is crowned, but I noticed this started happening by game 5 of the 2011 finals. It's pathetic

[FJS]

3. Passer - disagree, Malone's PS Ast:TOV ratio is 1.12, exactly the same as Dirk's. The key difference is that Malone is assisting more, but turning the ball over more. I'd much rather take the guy who turns the ball over less.

When you are willing to pass the ball more, is easiest to lose the ball.

Malone was a better passer, and you can't argue vs that.

[Amare_1_Knicks]

You probably shouldn't bring up lack of help from teammates when comparing DIRK and Malone.

I probably should considering in the playoffs Malone's second option, John Stockton, routinely let him down as a second option on offense. And the other thing you said about Dirk leading his team to a decade of 50 win teams, while impressive, it's irrelevant here. Malone led the Jazz to 11 in 13 years, and it would've been 12 but the lock-out season in '99 hindered that.