The case for LeBron 2009 as the GOAT peak

[Not Bias]

The best player in the post-season was Kobe, the best in the regular season was Lebron. It would have been nice to see them battle in the Finals, but of course, the Cavs didn't make it that far.

Okay, you expect a team with Mo Williams as the 2nd option, going to the finals??

That team won 66 games and had a 6+ SRS. Mo was an all-star that year(18 ppg on 59% TS is not bad for a 2nd option), and the team was constructed around Lebron.

So yeah, I expected them to beat a Jameer-less Magic squad, and not lose in 6 games with HCA.

Are you kidding me?? Lebron played is butt off and his team didn't show up plain and simple!! The Lakers just had a better supporting cast. Not a knock on Lebron because his team stunk up the joint!!

[GreenHat]

If 09 LeBron doesn't win a title with the 09 Cavs, I don't know who does. You basically couldn't play any better that postseason, even in the losing effort vs Orlando. It's amazing to me that people still can't see just how brutal those supporting casts were, and how amazing it was that he made the Cavs as relevant as they were.

Great post Colts, i appreciate the work

That was a very good supporting cast built around Lebron's playing style.

But to the thread topic, of course not. Lebron wasn't even the best player that year. The 09 Cavs didn't lose to the Lakers...they lost to a Magic team without their PG. Lebron was a far superior players by 2012, and the fact that people choose 2009 as his peak only points out how overblown stats can be.

Very good relative to what? And they were "built around" Lebron's playing style because everyone fits around his playing style.

They lost to that Magic team because your "very good" supporting cast was beyond horrible in that series.

Kobe fans never like stats/facts because objective measures don't do Kobe any favors.

I'm not even going to take your obvious troll bait on Lebron not even being the best player that year.

[JulesWinnfield]

Do you mean the postseason where Kobe was taken to 7 games by a rocket team ravaged by injury (I think Calvin Murphy came out of the booth and suited up) and needed Pau to bail him out in game 7 while Kobe shot 4 for 12?

[Narigo]

Am I watching ESPN First Take

[GreenHat]

Too bad they shot 30% vs the Magic, and no, Kobe was never as good as Lebron. Give Lebron the same Laker team he had that year and I doubt they wouldn't even lose a game to the Magic

You mean like the 2011 squad with Wade/Bosh who lost to a weaker Mavs team?

Kobe was the best player in that postseason, and did his damage against tough WC teams, instead of the cupcakes Lebron had in the 1st 2 rounds.

No I think he means something like the Lakers team with Shaq that lost to the weaker Pistons team. Upsets occasionally happen.

How come you can make so many excuses for your guy but ignore 30% shooting by a supporting cast by his competition? (I haven't looked up the exact number just going by the post you quoted)

[An Unbiased Fan]

No one else wins with that team.

To me its not amazing that people can't see the lack of relative strength in the supporting cast. To me its willful ignorance. Put a gun to their heads and all of the Kobe, Jordan and Bird fans who will flock to this thread will admit that their idols had far superior teammates than the 09 Cavs. They know it but choose to ignore it because it fits their agendas.

I'm so sick of this excuse.

The 2009 Cavs won 66 games and had a 8.68 SRS over a 82-game sample. They had 2 cupcakes opponents in the 1st 2 rounds, and were healthy going into the ECF, against a weaker Magic team, that didn't have it's all-star PG. Simply put, they should have won that series, just like they should have beat the Celtics in 2010, and the Heat should have beat the Mavs in 2011

What is Lebron's "impact", if it fizzles in the playoffs. People praise his RS records, but ignore the unexpected results in the PS. Kobe led a squad with an injured Bynum through the West, and to the title on 30/5/6. He was the best player in the playoffs.

[Not Bias]

Am I watching ESPN First Take

Kinda of a funny coincidence, cause I'm defending Lebron and Skip as usual is bashing him

[Illhavethelary]

Am I watching ESPN First Take

[Not Bias]

No one else wins with that team.

To me its not amazing that people can't see the lack of relative strength in the supporting cast. To me its willful ignorance. Put a gun to their heads and all of the Kobe, Jordan and Bird fans who will flock to this thread will admit that their idols had far superior teammates than the 09 Cavs. They know it but choose to ignore it because it fits their agendas.

I'm so sick of this excuse.

The 2009 Cavs won 66 games and had a 8.68 SRS over a 82-game sample. They had 2 cupcakes opponents in the 1st 2 rounds, and were healthy going into the ECF, against a weaker Magic team, that didn't have it's all-star PG. Simply put, they should have won that series, just like they should have beat the Celtics in 2010, and the Heat should have beat the Mavs in 2011

What is Lebron's "impact", if it fizzles in the playoffs. People praise his RS records, but ignore the unexpected results in the PS. Kobe led a squad with an injured Bynum through the West, and to the title on 30/5/6. He was the best player in the playoffs.

Yes but the difference was Pau Gasol vs Mo Williams , really??? Mo freaking' Williams

[GreenHat]

The best player in the post-season was Kobe, the best in the regular season was Lebron. It would have been nice to see them battle in the Finals, but of course, the Cavs didn't make it that far.

Okay, you expect a team with Mo Williams as the 2nd option, going to the finals??

That team won 66 games and had a 6+ SRS. Mo was an all-star that year(18 ppg on 59% TS is not bad for a 2nd option), and the team was constructed around Lebron.

So yeah, I expected them to beat a Jameer-less Magic squad, and not lose in 6 games with HCA.

That team won 66 games because of Lebron.

Mo Williams is absolutely a bad second option on a 66 win team especially when he brings nothing else to the table.

Again the team was constructed around Lebron because almost every reasonable grouping of players fits around Lebron.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Too bad they shot 30% vs the Magic, and no, Kobe was never as good as Lebron. Give Lebron the same Laker team he had that year and I doubt they wouldn't even lose a game to the Magic

You mean like the 2011 squad with Wade/Bosh who lost to a weaker Mavs team?

Kobe was the best player in that postseason, and did his damage against tough WC teams, instead of the cupcakes Lebron had in the 1st 2 rounds.

No I think he means something like the Lakers team with Shaq that lost to the weaker Pistons team. Upsets occasionally happen.

How come you can make so many excuses for your guy but ignore 30% shooting by a supporting cast by his competition? (I haven't looked up the exact number just going by the post you quoted)

The 2004 Pistons actually had a higher SRS than the Lakers, so it really wasn't much of an upset.

And where do you get this notion that his cast shot 30%? That's flaout wrong. The only guy who shot under 40% with any significant time was Mo at 37%.

[An Unbiased Fan]

No one else wins with that team.

To me its not amazing that people can't see the lack of relative strength in the supporting cast. To me its willful ignorance. Put a gun to their heads and all of the Kobe, Jordan and Bird fans who will flock to this thread will admit that their idols had far superior teammates than the 09 Cavs. They know it but choose to ignore it because it fits their agendas.

I'm so sick of this excuse.

The 2009 Cavs won 66 games and had a 8.68 SRS over a 82-game sample. They had 2 cupcakes opponents in the 1st 2 rounds, and were healthy going into the ECF, against a weaker Magic team, that didn't have it's all-star PG. Simply put, they should have won that series, just like they should have beat the Celtics in 2010, and the Heat should have beat the Mavs in 2011

What is Lebron's "impact", if it fizzles in the playoffs. People praise his RS records, but ignore the unexpected results in the PS. Kobe led a squad with an injured Bynum through the West, and to the title on 30/5/6. He was the best player in the playoffs.

Yes but the difference was Pau Gasol vs Mo Williams , really??? Mo freaking' Williams

Mo was 18 ppg on 59% TS. Pau was 19 ppg on 61% TS

[Not Bias]

The 2004 Pistons actually had a higher SRS than the Lakers, so it really wasn't much of an upset.And where do you get this notion that his cast shot 30%? That's flaout wrong. The only guy who shot under 40% with any significant time was Mo at 37%.

And that was their second scoring option, imagine if Gasol shot that percentage???

[JulesWinnfield]

I love the attempt to make Pau and Mo williams seem comparable. Before the Pau deal Kobe was getting bounced in round 1 or missing the playoffs entirely after the Shaq trade.

We've seen Pau Gasol be the Lakers best player in a game 7 of a final. We saw him be their best player in a game 7 in 09 vs Houston (the postseason Kobe was apparently so much better than LeBron). Hell we saw it again in game 7 last year vs Denver. He has quite the habit of carrying Kobe in the biggest of spots

[Not Bias]

Mo was 18 ppg on 59% TS. Pau was 19 ppg on 61% TS

So Lebron was at 29.7/7.3reb/8.6apg on 59ts% and Kobe was 26.8/5.2reb/4.9apg on 56ts%.

[GreenHat]

No one else wins with that team.

To me its not amazing that people can't see the lack of relative strength in the supporting cast. To me its willful ignorance. Put a gun to their heads and all of the Kobe, Jordan and Bird fans who will flock to this thread will admit that their idols had far superior teammates than the 09 Cavs. They know it but choose to ignore it because it fits their agendas.

I'm so sick of this excuse.

The 2009 Cavs won 66 games and had a 8.68 SRS over a 82-game sample. They had 2 cupcakes opponents in the 1st 2 rounds, and were healthy going into the ECF, against a weaker Magic team, that didn't have it's all-star PG. Simply put, they should have won that series, just like they should have beat the Celtics in 2010, and the Heat should have beat the Mavs in 2011

What is Lebron's "impact", if it fizzles in the playoffs. People praise his RS records, but ignore the unexpected results in the PS. Kobe led a squad with an injured Bynum through the West, and to the title on 30/5/6. He was the best player in the playoffs.

Yes the Cavs were that good because of Lebron. Against the Magic he played great and all of his teammates shot horrendously. His teammates were worse than any team Kobe won with. On most of those teams Kobe was the second option. You've been going on about what a good second option Mo Williams was. How much better is Kobe as a second option compared to Mo Williams?

They should have won that series just like the Lakers should have won the series they were upset in (most notably in the finals against the Pistons) or how they Lakers should have done better in those seasons where Kobe had a comparable supporting cast. Basketball is a team game, only one of those series was lost because of Lebron. Kobe has blown more.

Lebron's impact fizzled in one playoff series. That's the only one that his team lost because of him. Kobe has lost more and gotten bailed out by his superior teammates on other occasions.

You keep saying against the "west". The Lakers played the Jazz, Rockets and Nuggets. Hardly a murderers row.

I completely forgot that I'm arguing with the genius who thinks he can beat Jordan 1 vs 1 because he "almost" played for some **** college team. No point using logic or reason.

[Illhavethelary]

Mo Williams was horrible in the playoffs and Pau was putting up 19 PPG on 62 TS%. Lol this goes without mentioning that Gasol got way more defensive attention and is superior in every other facet of the game compared to Mo. Lol the fact that it even has to be explained should tell me it's not worth arguing.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I love the attempt to make Pau and Mo williams seem comparable. Before the Pau deal Kobe was getting bounced in round 1 or missing the playoffs entirely after the Shaq trade.

We've seen Pau Gasol be the Lakers best player in a game 7 of a final. We saw him be their best player in a game 7 in 09 vs Houston (the postseason Kobe was apparently so much better than LeBron). Hell we saw it again in game 7 last year vs Denver. He has quite the habit of carrying Kobe in the biggest of spots

The issue was 2nd option scoring, don't extrapolate it to something it wasn't.

[GreenHat]

I'm so sick of this excuse.

The 2009 Cavs won 66 games and had a 8.68 SRS over a 82-game sample. They had 2 cupcakes opponents in the 1st 2 rounds, and were healthy going into the ECF, against a weaker Magic team, that didn't have it's all-star PG. Simply put, they should have won that series, just like they should have beat the Celtics in 2010, and the Heat should have beat the Mavs in 2011

What is Lebron's "impact", if it fizzles in the playoffs. People praise his RS records, but ignore the unexpected results in the PS. Kobe led a squad with an injured Bynum through the West, and to the title on 30/5/6. He was the best player in the playoffs.

Yes but the difference was Pau Gasol vs Mo Williams , really??? Mo freaking' Williams

Mo was 18 ppg on 59% TS. Pau was 19 ppg on 61% TS

I thought Kobe fans didn't like TS% because Kobe has a 55% TS for his career and 54% in the playoffs. So does TS % matter now? Kobe is pretty bad at it, especially compared to Lebron.

You're also ignoring the difference in defense and rebounding.

Do you believe the Lakers would have traded Pau for Mo that season?

[An Unbiased Fan]

No one else wins with that team.

To me its not amazing that people can't see the lack of relative strength in the supporting cast. To me its willful ignorance. Put a gun to their heads and all of the Kobe, Jordan and Bird fans who will flock to this thread will admit that their idols had far superior teammates than the 09 Cavs. They know it but choose to ignore it because it fits their agendas.

I'm so sick of this excuse.

The 2009 Cavs won 66 games and had a 8.68 SRS over a 82-game sample. They had 2 cupcakes opponents in the 1st 2 rounds, and were healthy going into the ECF, against a weaker Magic team, that didn't have it's all-star PG. Simply put, they should have won that series, just like they should have beat the Celtics in 2010, and the Heat should have beat the Mavs in 2011

What is Lebron's "impact", if it fizzles in the playoffs. People praise his RS records, but ignore the unexpected results in the PS. Kobe led a squad with an injured Bynum through the West, and to the title on 30/5/6. He was the best player in the playoffs.

Yes the Cavs were that good because of Lebron. Against the Magic he played great and all of his teammates shot horrendously. His teammates were worse than any team Kobe won with. On most of those teams Kobe was the second option. You've been going on about what a good second option Mo Williams was. How much better is Kobe as a second option compared to Mo Williams?

They should have won that series just like the Lakers should have won the series they were upset in (most notably in the finals against the Pistons) or how they Lakers should have done better in those seasons where Kobe had a comparable supporting cast. Basketball is a team game, only one of those series was lost because of Lebron. Kobe has blown more.

Lebron's impact fizzled in one playoff series. That's the only one that his team lost because of him. Kobe has lost more and gotten bailed out by his superior teammates on other occasions.

You keep saying against the "west". The Lakers played the Jazz, Rockets and Nuggets. Hardly a murderers row.

I completely forgot that I'm arguing with the genius who thinks he can beat Jordan 1 vs 1 because he "almost" played for some **** college team. No point using logic or reason.

Again, the 04 pistons had a higher SRS than the 04 Lakers, LA had a key injury. That's hardly the same as a 8.68 SRS Cavs team losing to the Magic without their PG.

Don't give credit to Lebron for leading the Cavs to 66 wins, and yet no blame for the consistent fizzles he had in the playoffs. They lost those games down the stretch of the 4th quarters.