The Kevin Garnett thread: the most fascinating player on RGM

[drza]

Something that's been bothering me in various KG threads is that he's gotten this label from his detractors as a guy who is only viewed as awesome because of +/- stats, when that's not the case at all.

1. The guy is a box-score monster. Career RS PER of 23.1 in almost 48K minutes. 23/13/5/1.6/1.4 from 01-07.

2. Part of the reason +/- stats are used so frequently when examining him is to counter the resistance to the claims that his supporting cast was THAT bad. He isn't awesome because of +/- stats. Those stats do help show his value. Just like they do for Duncan, Dirk, Kobe, etc.

This. The argument used to be that he was stat padding on bad teams, and that his box score number made him appear to be better than he really was.

I don't have a problem with where some people rank KG, it just seems that every time something comes out that prove his detractors wrong, they shift the goalposts and use some other argument.

This is another very interesting exchange, and one that epitomizes another aspect of what makes KG so fascinating. It's hilarious seeing conversations about KG in 2013, and noting just how much the arguments against him have changed over time.

I remember around the turn of the century when the argument against him was that he was just a fantasy basketball beast. That he could put up the best box score numbers in the game, but only because his team was so bad. But he could never be the best player on a successful team because he couldn't make any impact outside of the box scores.

Now, in 2013, if you read the arguments about Garnett, you'd think that he was Ben Wallace or Tyson Chandler, a defensive-only player that can't do anything in the boxscores or on offense. That he's ONLY good because the +/- impact stats say he is.

I wonder how he'll be looked upon in another 10 or 15 years.

[Texas Chuck]

Thats hardly unique to KG and I dont see whats note-worthy about it all except its happening to a guy you like. This happens to Kobe way more than KG for example. But we all come into this with ideas and use the arguments that support our particular viewpoint. Hopefully we attempt to remain objective and consistent but its foolish for anyone to believe they always are and that its others who are changing the goalposts. Hopefully we listen to others and even allow our opinions to be changed occasionally(gasp!).

I see the same people argue for Nash over Kidd based on nothing but offense and then champion KG over Dirk because of defense and versatility. I could choose to think they are "moving goalposts" or I can accept those as both being legit and consistent positions to take even when I disagree.

[Vinsanity420]

He's honestly had a Bill Russell type defensive impact

No, no he hasnt. No one ever has. This is part of the problem that generates what Rap is talking about which I will address separately because he makes a fair pt. KG's defensive impact isnt close to Russells. Look at the TWolves years.

What are you saying no to? The +/- numbers back it up. It's not like I am making stuff up out of thin air. If he weren't on the Twolves, they would've been a historically bad defensive team. Those TWolves years casts were legitimately the worst anyone had to work with in the NBA. We all saw how we destroyed any offense in 2008, at age... 32? That's likely what he would've done were he on the Celtics or a competent franchise all career. He's had one of the finest, longest defensive careers ever, and is up there with anyone in NBA history.

[Texas Chuck]

He's had one of the finest, longest defensive careers ever, and is up there with anyone in NBA history.

I completely agree with you. I just think Russell's impact is otherworldly. No knock on KG intended. I just view Russell as having outlier impact defensively, ok?

[The Infamous1]

He's massively overrated on here but underrated in real life. I've just never been a fan, to me he's always Been the 7foot version of Scottie Pippen. The celtics were the best thing to ever happen to him, he can just worry about the defense and put up Pau Gasol 09-10 numbers on offense.

[BlackIce]

Most underrate his mobility, it allows him to guard the pick and roll better than any big I've seen. A counter to the "not enough volume scoring" would be that he ran the show in MIN like a point guard, and did the same to a lesser extent in Boston. He opens up driving lanes because he can hit the mid range J, and his leadership intangibles can not be questioned.

I know it's a strange comparison but I always though Garnett was the closest thing we will see to prime Bill Walton in terms of being an offensive hub that the team runs it's offense through.

[rrravenred]

I"ve always been a KG fan (due to a lot of the reasons ElGee talks about). He's an odd player though, sui generis, who doesn't have a lot of players he directly compares to. Most players commonly considered stars have at least an A- scoring game or passing/playmaking game, wheras KG"s basically got a strong B in both (possibly an A- high post passing game), but his primary value is in defensive distortion with his length, lateral movement and positioning. This sort of control of space prevents other teams from getting their desired "shape" on the floor, making the regular execution of good offensive sets difficult. Calling him the flipside to Dirk is a good way to look at it, as Dirk also distorts the floor, dragging defenders to him.

Added to that, KG's also a monstrous rebounder and is also pretty good in transition and you've got a really impactful player. Very close to a bigger version of Russell, although the superlative shotblocking and Russell's brilliance at getting inside his oponent's head puts him ahead, for mine.

He's also controversial because of his relatively low-impact scoring and his W/L record on an atrociously managed team. The outrageously disproportionate contract he was awarded didn't help matters either.

[sisibilio]

He's had one of the finest, longest defensive careers ever, and is up there with anyone in NBA history.

I completely agree with you. I just think Russell's impact is otherworldly. No knock on KG intended. I just view Russell as having outlier impact defensively, ok?

He's benn a great defender that's for sure but i think some people fall in love with his versatility and see him as more dominant than he really was. IMO he wasn't the best defender in his generation of big men, even without considering defensive specialists like Wallace, i don't think he had more impact on the defensive end than Duncan for instance.

[Dr Pepper]

KG never really had the interior presence, or bulk and strength, of his more dominant peers. KG was also much more finesse than power, and didn't have as many moves either especially in the way of one hand hooks. KG relied too much on fadeaways and didn't get to the line enough, and his boxscore numbers are a little deceiving because of the minutes and amount of shots to reach them. Missing the playoffs 3x in his prime, while being the most paid NBA player ever, getting suspended in the playoffs even as an old vet, etc. also aren't exactly highlights. Not to mention his playoffs TS% makes David Robinson's numbers look pretty decent

On the other hand KG is very versatile with an excellent midrange and FT shot for a 7 footer. Plus KG will be on the court playing MVP level minutes even when his team is out of the playoffs race. That said imo KG's leadership also wasn't as elite as say Duncan or Dirk's but KG's leadership was still excellent in it's own right. However the comments McHale and former teammates of KG have said about The Big Ticket is just stuff you won't really find with his peers, for what it's worth.

[WhateverBro]

KG never really had the interior presence, or bulk and strength, of his more dominant peers. KG was also much more finesse than power, and didn't have as many moves either especially in the way of one hand hooks. KG relied too much on fadeaways and didn't get to the line enough, and his boxscore numbers are a little deceiving because of the minutes and amount of shots to reach them. Missing the playoffs 3x in his prime, while being the most paid NBA player ever, getting suspended in the playoffs even as an old vet, etc. also aren't exactly highlights. Not to mention his playoffs TS% makes David Robinson's numbers look pretty decent

On the other hand KG is very versatile with an excellent midrange and FT shot for a 7 footer. Plus KG will be on the court playing MVP level minutes even when his team is out of the playoffs race. That said imo KG's leadership also wasn't as elite as say Duncan or Dirk's but KG's leadership was still excellent in it's own right. However the comments McHale and former teammates of KG have said about The Big Ticket is just stuff you won't really find with his peers, for what it's worth.

What exactly are these comments?

[Dr Pepper]

KG never really had the interior presence, or bulk and strength, of his more dominant peers. KG was also much more finesse than power, and didn't have as many moves either especially in the way of one hand hooks. KG relied too much on fadeaways and didn't get to the line enough, and his boxscore numbers are a little deceiving because of the minutes and amount of shots to reach them. Missing the playoffs 3x in his prime, while being the most paid NBA player ever, getting suspended in the playoffs even as an old vet, etc. also aren't exactly highlights. Not to mention his playoffs TS% makes David Robinson's numbers look pretty decent

On the other hand KG is very versatile with an excellent midrange and FT shot for a 7 footer. Plus KG will be on the court playing MVP level minutes even when his team is out of the playoffs race. That said imo KG's leadership also wasn't as elite as say Duncan or Dirk's but KG's leadership was still excellent in it's own right. However the comments McHale and former teammates of KG have said about The Big Ticket is just stuff you won't really find with his peers, for what it's worth.

What exactly are these comments?

Retweet:



Sure its Wally, and sure he would later apologize especially after KG's next performance (although it wasn't exactly against tough post defenders) but you just don't find this kind of crap with Duncan imo. As for McHale's quote it's more or less the same thing but yea searching through Google after KG hugged McHale won't make it easy. KG is still an excellent leader but I don't think his leadership is as elite as some of his peers

[lorak]

He's honestly had a Bill Russell type defensive impact

No, no he hasnt. No one ever has. This is part of the problem that generates what Rap is talking about which I will address separately because he makes a fair pt. KG's defensive impact isnt close to Russells. Look at the TWolves years.

Because during TWolves years he was doing much more on offense (Russell never was asked to do as much on offensive end). But when his offensive role was limited that unleashed his defensive impact and Celtics years definitely proves it was as good as Russell's.

[Texas Chuck]

and Celtics years definitely proves it was as good as Russell's.

Then make a case for that. I disagree, but Ill listen to a case if you can make it. Either way his impact can hardly rival Russell's since Russell was the dominant defender in the NBA from his 1st day to the last. And he was very involved in the offense too. He wasnt as effective as KG, but you cant pretend he was resting on offense when that simply wasnt the case.

[Rapcity_11]

KG never really had the interior presence, or bulk and strength, of his more dominant peers. KG was also much more finesse than power, and didn't have as many moves either especially in the way of one hand hooks. KG relied too much on fadeaways and didn't get to the line enough, and his boxscore numbers are a little deceiving because of the minutes and amount of shots to reach them. Missing the playoffs 3x in his prime, while being the most paid NBA player ever, getting suspended in the playoffs even as an old vet, etc. also aren't exactly highlights. Not to mention his playoffs TS% makes David Robinson's numbers look pretty decent

On the other hand KG is very versatile with an excellent midrange and FT shot for a 7 footer. Plus KG will be on the court playing MVP level minutes even when his team is out of the playoffs race. That said imo KG's leadership also wasn't as elite as say Duncan or Dirk's but KG's leadership was still excellent in it's own right. However the comments McHale and former teammates of KG have said about The Big Ticket is just stuff you won't really find with his peers, for what it's worth.

What exactly are these comments?

Retweet:



Sure its Wally, and sure he would later apologize especially after KG's next performance (although it wasn't exactly against tough post defenders) but you just don't find this kind of crap with Duncan imo. As for McHale's quote it's more or less the same thing but yea searching through Google after KG hugged McHale won't make it easy. KG is still an excellent leader but I don't think his leadership is as elite as some of his peers

Hahaha.

That's basically the equivalent of blaming Duncan for Stephen Jackson thinking he's better than the guys in the Spurs rotation and getting himself released.

How in the world anyone can use Wally's tweet as an indictment of KG is beyond me.

[Dipper 13]

What in the hell is a clutch gene?

[WhateverBro]

KG never really had the interior presence, or bulk and strength, of his more dominant peers. KG was also much more finesse than power, and didn't have as many moves either especially in the way of one hand hooks. KG relied too much on fadeaways and didn't get to the line enough, and his boxscore numbers are a little deceiving because of the minutes and amount of shots to reach them. Missing the playoffs 3x in his prime, while being the most paid NBA player ever, getting suspended in the playoffs even as an old vet, etc. also aren't exactly highlights. Not to mention his playoffs TS% makes David Robinson's numbers look pretty decent

On the other hand KG is very versatile with an excellent midrange and FT shot for a 7 footer. Plus KG will be on the court playing MVP level minutes even when his team is out of the playoffs race. That said imo KG's leadership also wasn't as elite as say Duncan or Dirk's but KG's leadership was still excellent in it's own right. However the comments McHale and former teammates of KG have said about The Big Ticket is just stuff you won't really find with his peers, for what it's worth.

What exactly are these comments?

Retweet:



Sure its Wally, and sure he would later apologize especially after KG's next performance (although it wasn't exactly against tough post defenders) but you just don't find this kind of crap with Duncan imo. As for McHale's quote it's more or less the same thing but yea searching through Google after KG hugged McHale won't make it easy. KG is still an excellent leader but I don't think his leadership is as elite as some of his peers

So you base your argument against KG with a tweet from someone who 1) didn't get along with KG during their years together and 2) who deleted his tweet, apologized and said his Twitter was hacked.

The McHale quotes you claim exist are probably just make believe. I can dig up several quotes of McHale showing how much he loves KG and his game. The only reason their relationship became somewhat bad the last two years was because of the frustration of the team being so bad. KG wanted McHale to bring him more help and for whatever reason he couldnt. They both love eachother and McHale has stated many times that he thinks KG is one of the best ever.

[lorak]

and Celtics years definitely proves it was as good as Russell's.

Then make a case for that. I disagree, but Ill listen to a case if you can make it. Either way his impact can hardly rival Russell's since Russell was the dominant defender in the NBA from his 1st day to the last. And he was very involved in the offense too. He wasnt as effective as KG, but you cant pretend he was resting on offense when that simply wasnt the case.

I'm not saying he was resting, but Russell clearly wasn't as good offensively as Minny KG. Not even close.

DRAPM

2008: 1. KG 5.2, 2nd player 4.3
2009: 1. KG 5.6, 2nd player 4.1
2010: 3. KG 4.0, 1st player 4.4
2011: 1. KG 5.3, 2nd player 3.9
2012: 6. KG 3.6, 1st player 4.1
2013: 3. KG 4.7, 1st player 5.0

So basically for 4 year streach he was the best defender in the NBA and no one else was even close (his 2010 season was affected by injuries).

Sure, Russell was great defender longer, but that's because what KG's role was in Minnesota. But even as TWolve he has that great defensive ability. But unlike Russell he also has to carry his team offensively. And it's rather obvious that's more difficult to be great on both ends of the floor than only on one.

So if you want to argue career wise, then yes - Russell overall had more defensive impact. But peak wise, or under the same circumstances - then they were equal defensively.

[Texas Chuck]

Uh we dont have DRAPM for Russell obviously but all accounts suggest the gap would be even bigger if we had them. The team numbers with Russell are all off the charts. And its not fair to talk about Russell not being as good offensively as Minny KG without pointing out both that KG in Minny wasnt nearly as impactful defensively and that KG in Boston wasnt nearly as impactful offensively. But by not stating that you are implying he was having GOAT level impact defensively while being an offensive anchor something he never did--hence why many of us view Duncan the better player.

edit: and again my argument is not that KG isnt a great defender. I think he's a tremendous defender. I dont think he's as impactful as Russell. Just like I think Dirk is a great offensive player but he's not Mike or Magic.

[lorak]

Uh we dont have DRAPM for Russell obviously but all accounts suggest the gap would be even bigger if we had them. The team numbers with Russell are all off the charts.

They are great, but some teams also were close to these numbers despite playing during much better offensive times. Something many Russell's supporters ignore, as well as fact that until Sanders and then Havlicek, Boston wasn't GOAT defensive team.

BTW, maybe you would explain why Celtics drtg in Russell's second year was basically the same as in his rookie season, when he played only like half a year? Why team didn't improve?

And its not fair to talk about Russell not being as good offensively as Minny KG without pointing out both that KG in Minny wasnt nearly as impactful defensively and that KG in Boston wasnt nearly as impactful offensively.

Are you really suggesting Russell's offensive skillset, abilities were close to KG's?!

And even Celtics KG was better offensively than Russell - the same passing, much better shooting (spacing).

[Texas Chuck]

[
Are you really suggesting Russell's abilities, skillset offensively were close to KG's?!

And even Celtics KG was better offensively than Russell - the same passing, much better shooting (spacing).

No I never suggesting any such thing. My comments were simply that I believe Russell had a greater defensive impact than KG. I was simply pointing in response to your justification for KG's Minny defense as being due to offensive responsibilities that Russell also had enormous offensive responsibilities. So being tired from offense shouldnt be an excuse for KG in comparison.

But to state the obvious: KG is a vastly superior offensive player.

I also hate that I have this anti-KG reputation around here. I think the guy is tremendous. ITs just when people want to claim he's as good defensively as Russell, a better player period than Duncan, and better to build a franchise around than Dirk that I try and talk them down because I think they have gone too far.