DPOY Marc Gasol finishes 14th in All-Defensive votes

[RayBan-Sematra]

It's been pretty obvious for along time that the people voting for All-D awards simply aren't any good at judging defensive impact or ability.
Either that or they simply don't put any effort in it and just throw down whatever random names that come to their head at the moment they fill out the list.

For god sakes Kobe one of the worst perimeter defenders in the league got more then a handful of 1st place votes again.

The Award is a joke right now.

[ceiling raiser]

Maybe the PC board can submit retro all-defensive teams along with its DPOY if that's voted to be the summer project?

The coaches may be hopeless, but perhaps participants could produce respectable selections.

It's something to consider. To be honest after working really hard on a heavy project last summer and seeing a lack of enthusiasm I'm personally not running anything big this summer and in general I'd have to really think about how it would work with anything this challenging.

By that I mean the reason the coaches are so bad at this is because it's hard to do it justice. We can blow the coaches away in legitimacy for contemporary years, but when we go deep in the past we're going to be relying quite a bit on the reputation even as we insist that reputation-based defensive evaluation is so ineffective.

Perhaps. Since it seems possible we'll have complete RAPM numbers going back to 96-97 this summer, it might be worth a mini project (+ offensive teams).

BTW are you referring to last year's project, or this coming summer when citing apparent lack of enthusiasm? I think topic has a lot to do with it (2010 RPOY is probably the best such work in the online basketball community; towards the end it seems it tailed off, but it was monumental nonetheless), though I think ElGee's SRS/wins added mini-project should serve as a great follow-up. Admittedly, I haven't read through all of last year's thread (and the linked debate/voting topics), so maybe I should to see where you're coming from in your assessment.

[SideshowBob]

I think he's referring to the peaks project, which sort of fell off the cliff after the top 25, when it was meant to be a top 50. The discussion up to 25 was excellent though, and I know that there was a large amount of guys that were looking forward to the later spots, but the discussion just wasn't there.

[richboy]

In reality Gasol didn't make first or second team. He only second team because Chandler and Noah tied. If they didn't tie he wouldn't even been on the squad.

I actuallly don't have an issue with Gasol not being on either team because he wasn't my DPOY. I have an issue that Tyson Chandler though was put in front of him.. Chandler who not even that good defensively has taken his NY fame to a DPOY and a first team all-nba defense.

Sorry Chris Paul. You got lit up way to much to be first team all-nba. Looks like they just looked at steals and said Chris Paul check. Mike Conley check.

Serge Ibaka. Apparently the only good thing you need to do on defense is block shots. He sucks at all the other aspects. Larry Sanders was better than him.

[ceiling raiser]

I think he's referring to the peaks project, which sort of fell off the cliff after the top 25, when it was meant to be a top 50. The discussion up to 25 was excellent though, and I know that there was a large amount of guys that were looking forward to the later spots, but the discussion just wasn't there.

Ah okay. Could be worse though:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=276556

Now that has to qualify as a complete travesty.

[Doctor MJ]

People have mentioned that the head coaches aren't the ones who actually vote on these teams. They typically defer it to an assistant who may or may not have any NBA knowledge. That would explain certain choices such as Derek Fisher consistently getting All-D votes

Typically I respond to this entirely plausible observation by saying it doesn't really matter who votes, the results are terrible.

It is worth noting though: How far do you have to pass the buck down before you get someone who really lacks NBA knowledge and is it likely we get there? Do we really think that the head coach goes and seeks out some college intern when he could instead give it any number of assistant coaches or scouts?

I'm inclined to believe that these votes are often not done by head coaches...but I don't actually believe that that's why the voting is so bad. The voting is so bad for the same reason that the head coaches pass the buck: People in the NBA coaching/scouting tree simply don't put much effort into actually assessing season-wide value.

This confuses some people. "How can people be about the best in the business at listing out a players strengths, weaknesses, and tendencies, but not have a clear ranked list in their head when it comes to value?" 2 reasons:

1) These two sets of determinations are far more different than most realize...including the coaches/scouts.

2) While coaches/scouts are the best at what they do, they aren't as good as they think they are. The rest of us embracing cutting edge techniques won't make us (most of us anyway, and I'm one of the most) anywhere as good as them at what they do, but that doesn't mean we don't see legit flaws in their approach.

[SideshowBob]

I think he's referring to the peaks project, which sort of fell off the cliff after the top 25, when it was meant to be a top 50. The discussion up to 25 was excellent though, and I know that there was a large amount of guys that were looking forward to the later spots, but the discussion just wasn't there.

Ah okay. Could be worse though:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=276556

Now that has to qualify as a complete travesty.

Dear lord, that looks like a disaster. I think everyone that's participated in or even simply watched a PC Board project take place agrees that the true value is in the discussion that's generated, especially the longer the project lasts (filters out blatant one-man guys). It doesn't seem like there was too much of that here

[Doctor MJ]

Perhaps. Since it seems possible we'll have complete RAPM numbers going back to 96-97 this summer, it might be worth a mini project (+ offensive teams).

BTW are you referring to last year's project, or this coming summer when citing apparent lack of enthusiasm? I think topic has a lot to do with it (2010 RPOY is probably the best such work in the online basketball community; towards the end it seems it tailed off, but it was monumental nonetheless), though I think ElGee's SRS/wins added mini-project should serve as a great follow-up. Admittedly, I haven't read through all of last year's thread (and the linked debate/voting topics), so maybe I should to see where you're coming from in your assessment.

-I could see a mini-project happening. If people wanted to do something like that I could consider going there.

-I'm referring to last year's project's enthusiasm. Because we had done the Top 100 in 2011 and no one wanted to do it again so soon, and the fact that it really won't make sense to re-do the RPOY for a good while, the Peaks project was literally THE sexiest project out there. Anticipated that still wouldn't be enough to go 100 we cut the project to 50. I was sure that would be enough to go the distance, and it wasn't really even close.

While there's more than one factor involved, to me the diagnosis is the same: The trickier the concept and the heavier the commitment will be, the more momentum you need to go in with.

Really though where I am at the moment is just that running these mega-projects takes a lot out of me and after last year's die off I don't really want to be tugging that rope again this summer. This doesn't mean I'll never do one again - particularly if nothing happens this summer I'll feel compelled to try next - but I'm tired right now.

[ceiling raiser]

I think he's referring to the peaks project, which sort of fell off the cliff after the top 25, when it was meant to be a top 50. The discussion up to 25 was excellent though, and I know that there was a large amount of guys that were looking forward to the later spots, but the discussion just wasn't there.

Ah okay. Could be worse though:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=276556

Now that has to qualify as a complete travesty.

Dear lord, that looks like a disaster. I think everyone that's participated in or even simply watched a PC Board project take place agrees that the true value is in the discussion that's generated, especially the longer the project lasts (filters out blatant one-man guys). It doesn't seem like there was too much of that here

Completely agree with the bolded. Excellent point.

That being said, there are a handful of posters on the board there who contribute to discussions (ThaRegul8r and Dipper 13/PHILA who also post here are among the few great minds on ISH), so it's unfortunate that legitimate conversation tends to devolve there.

[ceiling raiser]

Perhaps. Since it seems possible we'll have complete RAPM numbers going back to 96-97 this summer, it might be worth a mini project (+ offensive teams).

BTW are you referring to last year's project, or this coming summer when citing apparent lack of enthusiasm? I think topic has a lot to do with it (2010 RPOY is probably the best such work in the online basketball community; towards the end it seems it tailed off, but it was monumental nonetheless), though I think ElGee's SRS/wins added mini-project should serve as a great follow-up. Admittedly, I haven't read through all of last year's thread (and the linked debate/voting topics), so maybe I should to see where you're coming from in your assessment.

-I could see a mini-project happening. If people wanted to do something like that I could consider going there.

-I'm referring to last year's project's enthusiasm. Because we had done the Top 100 in 2011 and no one wanted to do it again so soon, and the fact that it really won't make sense to re-do the RPOY for a good while, the Peaks project was literally THE sexiest project out there. Anticipated that still wouldn't be enough to go 100 we cut the project to 50. I was sure that would be enough to go the distance, and it wasn't really even close.

While there's more than one factor involved, to me the diagnosis is the same: The trickier the concept and the heavier the commitment will be, the more momentum you need to go in with.

Really though where I am at the moment is just that running these mega-projects takes a lot out of me and after last year's die off I don't really want to be tugging that rope again this summer. This doesn't mean I'll never do one again - particularly if nothing happens this summer I'll feel compelled to try next - but I'm tired right now.

Ah okay, thanks for the insight; this puts your previous post in perspective. I'll have to read through and see when/why it played out that way when I have some free time.

[Doctor MJ]

I think he's referring to the peaks project, which sort of fell off the cliff after the top 25, when it was meant to be a top 50. The discussion up to 25 was excellent though, and I know that there was a large amount of guys that were looking forward to the later spots, but the discussion just wasn't there.

Ah okay. Could be worse though:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=276556

Now that has to qualify as a complete travesty.

I feel your pain man.

Y'know it's interesting. I started on RealGM way back when because it was the best basketball forum I could find. In the back of my mind I always think something better is bound to emerge simply because RealGM's name is so obscure but it never seems to happen despite the fact that fantastic posters emerge on other sites. Seems like it's just that these fantastic posters end up feeling so frustrated that they end up seeking out "something better" and end up with at least one foot on this site.

Less a matter that we're so good we have a gravitational attraction and more that there's some kind of anger-based repulsion that leads the best people to keep seeking new things out.

In the end, what we tend to get is waves of momentum. Last summer we really seemed to bottom out, but if new people are coming in and being awesome, the next big wave will come.

[ThaRegul8r]

Let me also note something else. Check out the specifics of the voting:

Noah 22
Chandler 22
Sanders 16
Gasol 12
Howard 9

Not only did Gasol only make 2nd team because of a fluke/cheat tie involving the top two. He shouldn't have made the 2nd team anyway given Sanders votes.

I found it curious that Gasol somehow made the Second Team in the first place, looking at the voting.

I find it to be more than a little shady.

All-D voting has no requirement that you vote by officially designated positions, and in the past we've seen All-D teams which only have one guard on them. So what does it say when a guy gets on the team over others with more points? That we have someone in a position of authority picking & choosing when to enforce rules strategically.

Even if Larry Sanders didn't exist, Marc Gasol only made that team because the NBA thought it would look better if Gasol at least made the 2nd team.

When you add in that Sanders IS A CENTER it becomes a complete conspiracy. They strategically chose to insist on having a center on the 2nd team AND insisted on classifying Sanders as a non-center when even the nba's website calls Sanders center. Why did they do this? To spare themselves the embarrassment of having the DPOY not even make All-D 2nd team.

I was actually talking about this very point to someone offline. Larry Sanders is a center and finished higher in the voting than Gasol did, yet somehow Sanders is not on a team and Gasol is. Which makes it curiouser and curiouser.

[Bodhi]

People have mentioned that the head coaches aren't the ones who actually vote on these teams. They typically defer it to an assistant who may or may not have any NBA knowledge. That would explain certain choices such as Derek Fisher consistently getting All-D votes

Typically I respond to this entirely plausible observation by saying it doesn't really matter who votes, the results are terrible.

It is worth noting though: How far do you have to pass the buck down before you get someone who really lacks NBA knowledge and is it likely we get there? Do we really think that the head coach goes and seeks out some college intern when he could instead give it any number of assistant coaches or scouts?

I'm inclined to believe that these votes are often not done by head coaches...but I don't actually believe that that's why the voting is so bad. The voting is so bad for the same reason that the head coaches pass the buck: People in the NBA coaching/scouting tree simply don't put much effort into actually assessing season-wide value.

This confuses some people. "How can people be about the best in the business at listing out a players strengths, weaknesses, and tendencies, but not have a clear ranked list in their head when it comes to value?" 2 reasons:

1) These two sets of determinations are far more different than most realize...including the coaches/scouts.

2) While coaches/scouts are the best at what they do, they aren't as good as they think they are. The rest of us embracing cutting edge techniques won't make us (most of us anyway, and I'm one of the most) anywhere as good as them at what they do, but that doesn't mean we don't see legit flaws in their approach.

Obviously I don't know exactly who votes and I'm just repeating what journalists report. I tend to believe them and the results back up the idea that unknowing assistants are the ones to actually vote on the awards. Of course it still makes no sense that the coaches pass this off when it would only take a few minutes to fill out a ballet, but who knows

[An Unbiased Fan]

Two different voting pools, so not a big surprise.

Historically speaking, a guy like Duncan has 13 All-Defense selections, and ZERO DPOYs. KG has 12 All-D teams, and 1 DPOY. I'll take All-D over DPOY voting allday long.

Marc Gasol really wasn't the DPOY anyway. Memphis has great TEAM defense.

[Doctor MJ]

Two different voting pools, so not a big surprise.

Historically speaking, a guy like Duncan has 13 All-Defense selections, and ZERO DPOYs. KG has 12 All-D teams, and 1 DPOY. I'll take All-D over DPOY voting allday long.

Marc Gasol really wasn't the DPOY anyway. Memphis has great TEAM defense.

You're right it's not entirely a surprise. I've been waiting to see the All-D voting ever since Gasol won DPOY because I suspected some interesting discrepancies...but this is beyond my wildest hopes for absurdity.

A player earning All-Ds and no DPOY is not a contradiction so that's not at all the same thing. While I don't agree with Duncan's lack of DPOY, the treatment of the two voter bases with respect to him seems pretty consistent.

Re: Gasol not really DPOY anyway. Really now? Name who you think should have won it. I'm not going to say Gasol was a strong DPOY, but this was clearly a year of weak candidates period. Every single candidate I can think of has some clear arguments against him.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Re: Gasol not really DPOY anyway. Really now? Name who you think should have won it. I'm not going to say Gasol was a strong DPOY, but this was clearly a year of weak candidates period. Every single candidate I can think of has some clear arguments against him.

Probably Noah. I don't think anyone really stuck out as a DPOY this year. And I would say the All-D voting reflects how wide open things were this year.

At the end of the day, team defense is just so much more important in this era vs individual defense. And Noah's versatility on defense, along with how he impact's Chicago's team defense,(even when a guy like Boozer is next to him), makes him my DPOY.

[Doctor MJ]

Re: Gasol not really DPOY anyway. Really now? Name who you think should have won it. I'm not going to say Gasol was a strong DPOY, but this was clearly a year of weak candidates period. Every single candidate I can think of has some clear arguments against him.

Probably Noah. I don't think anyone really stuck out as a DPOY this year. And I would say the All-D voting reflects how wide open things were this year.

At the end of the day, team defense is just so much more important in this era vs individual defense. And Noah's versatility on defense, along with how he impact's Chicago's team defense,(even when a guy like Boozer is next to him), makes him my DPOY.

I expected Noah to win too before he got injured. But he did get injured and this made it awfully hard to side with him over Gasol.

Re: All-D reflects wide open. Gasol got slaughtered in the All-D voting by Chandler. Chandler won DPOY last year but this year missed serious time and let a below average team defense. There's just no getting around it: Chandler got the nod over Gasol because people voted based on prior reputation. We already knew that happened like crazy with less prominent defensive players, but Gasol emerged to take the DPOY this year and the coaches still didn't notice. Still barely got voted above Howard how had a trainwreck of a year. That's a problem.

At this point though I gotta be honest: My biggest problem is that Gasol DID make the 2nd team. He shouldn't have. He was the 4th vote getter among centers and the 14th overall. He got the nod because whoever assembled the votes manipulated the rules to slip him in...which would never have happened if Gasol hadn't won DPOY. The NBA is now making stuff up to cover up a branch of incompetence.

[nikomCH]

I think he's referring to the peaks project, which sort of fell off the cliff after the top 25, when it was meant to be a top 50. The discussion up to 25 was excellent though, and I know that there was a large amount of guys that were looking forward to the later spots, but the discussion just wasn't there.

Ah okay. Could be worse though:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=276556

Now that has to qualify as a complete travesty.

I feel your pain man.

Y'know it's interesting. I started on RealGM way back when because it was the best basketball forum I could find. In the back of my mind I always think something better is bound to emerge simply because RealGM's name is so obscure but it never seems to happen despite the fact that fantastic posters emerge on other sites. Seems like it's just that these fantastic posters end up feeling so frustrated that they end up seeking out "something better" and end up with at least one foot on this site.

Less a matter that we're so good we have a gravitational attraction and more that there's some kind of anger-based repulsion that leads the best people to keep seeking new things out.

In the end, what we tend to get is waves of momentum. Last summer we really seemed to bottom out, but if new people are coming in and being awesome, the next big wave will come.

This website and the Gamefaqs NBA board are the only two NBA discussion boards I have found that actually discuss the game at a competent level (although I think it's because there's an overlap of posters from here and over there) and have high amounts of activity. Yeah you have your trolls and fanboys scattered around but if you want serious discussion mixed in I haven't found any place better.

[Dupp]

There's so much wrong with this list so ill just list one

A 50 game Bradley got more than twice as many votes as gasol





I also found interesting that apparently Sanders got more votes than Gasol but they bumped Marc up to second team anyway...


Edit - looks like you guys already covered the sanders business

[DarkAzcura]

I honestly think it's weirder that Garnett did not get a SINGLE vote. Completely incompetent. As long as the Celtics remain a top 5 defense, with Garnett at the forefront of that defense, we should be seeing Garnett get at least ONE vote if not actually placed on one of the teams.