Who are the best big man pick and roll defenders of all-time?

[bastillon]

I feel that Duncan gets underrated in this aspect because he's pretty slow footed. But as long as he has the ability to drop back in coverage and is extremely effective against penetrating guards. His length is really bothersome to players trying to finish at the rim, and he does a remarkable job of hanging out in no-man's land, and his noncommittal usually forces guards into a tough decision, as he is close enough to recover to both the screener and handler. Basically, he's an expert at positioning.

I believe Zach Lowe pointed his out in his most recent article, but at 39 Duncan is still remarkably effective defending the play basically solely with his smart positioning.

I strongly disagree. Being myself a Suns fan during the Steve Nash MVP era, I know Duncan is a liability in the pick and rolls with his limited lateral speed. Of course he famously got torched by Amare for almost 40 ppg in 2005 WCF but more importantly he was very poor against Steve Nash in switches. If Duncan was able to switch onto Nash, Spurs defense would be a lot more effective. I understand that this was the best pick and roll team of all-time, but still if he was an elite pick and roll defender, Spurs defense would've performed better.

Warspite,
What is the difference between the pick and rolls that Oscar played and the ones that Pistons played?

Ok... I don't know how history got rewritten with you. Saying that the defense should have performed better? Remind me who won the series handly? There was more than just one big playing in that series. Did you forget that Marion had an epic fail of a series? He came in avg 22 ppg and was reduced to being a 7ppg spare. The fact that the Suns were so dependent on one play was their downfall. They got away from shooting from outside, they got away from running out on the break.

That's true, Marion was an epic fail in that series. But as a matter of fact, Suns actually maintained their offensive efficiency from the RS as a team. The problem was they got beat up in the paint where not only Duncan but also Manu and Parker scored at will. As far as Duncan's defense is concerned, he was a liability in the pick and roll in that series. Those games are available and you can see what I'm talking about. His inability to guard Steve Nash on the switch was what kept Suns in games. Suns lost because of poor defensive performance, not because the offense was stopped. Even when Spurs stopped the transition game, their HCO was still producing a lot of pts due to Nash's pnr.

[SaintofKillers]

Sheed definitely deserve some love here as well. He was great at blitzing players all the way to the halfcourt line and preventing the pass to the roll guy as he recovers. Saw him did it a lot against Nash who was probably one of the best at running a P&R.

I think what is important is to realize how hard it is to correctly hedge on a pick and roll. It changes with who is playing with you(the ball handler defender), where the pick occurred, what side of the floor it happened(some players shoot better on a particular side), who is shooting. Sheed and Billups when they were at their apex, were among the best pair of defenders that I have ever seen handle the pick and roll.

That's true and very rarely do players/pairs do it right which is why you barely see teams utilize it and instead go with other options. I think what's impressive with Sheed is that he was able to make it work with Stoudamire of all people.

But of course, his tandem with Billups and Big Ben, who were world-class defenders in their own right, was obviously on a whole different level. Those Pistons teams made 65-point games fun to watch.

[CaliBullsFan]

KG, Tyson Chandler and Rahseed Wallace

[trex_8063]

Resurrecting this thread 'cause I just thought of another really good one from the modern era: Amir Johnson.

[Tim Lehrbach]

Clifford Robinson was great defending the pick-and-roll and is now seemingly forgotten as an elite defensive big during his prime and even beyond his years as a useful scorer. He never got enough credit then, for that matter.

[Shot Clock]

This is an interesting topic, and very hard to accurately predict. One thing is almost a given: the best of the best are almost certainly post 2000 players. Even the 80s/90s Jazz only used it about 30% of the time, if I recall (old info) correctly. Many teams do it far more now, so players and coaches are far more familiar and versed in its application and countering now.

The pick and roll was a core aspect of many teams in the 80's and 90's. This isn't some new invention. Stockton and Malone ran it to death, Daly used it relentlessly with the Bad Boys.

[Rerisen]

Joakim Noah should get a mention among modern players, seeing as he just won a DPOY last year almost entirely on the strength of his PnR and help defense. Certainly wasn't his post defending or even shot blocking.

[Biddy77]

This is an interesting topic, and very hard to accurately predict. One thing is almost a given: the best of the best are almost certainly post 2000 players. Even the 80s/90s Jazz only used it about 30% of the time, if I recall (old info) correctly. Many teams do it far more now, so players and coaches are far more familiar and versed in its application and countering now.

The pick and roll was a core aspect of many teams in the 80's and 90's. This isn't some new invention. Stockton and Malone ran it to death, Daly used it relentlessly with the Bad Boys.

Actually, the Jazz reputation for using it "all of the time" came from using it on around 35% of their possessions, iirc. The Pistons didn't come close.

Most of the league uses it now more than the Jazz did. A lot of the Jazz O was feeding the left block and going into movement away from the ball. Stotts, Carlisle, and a bunch of other coaches have adapted their sets.

[franktony]

I feel that Duncan gets underrated in this aspect because he's pretty slow footed. But as long as he has the ability to drop back in coverage and is extremely effective against penetrating guards. His length is really bothersome to players trying to finish at the rim, and he does a remarkable job of hanging out in no-man's land, and his noncommittal usually forces guards into a tough decision, as he is close enough to recover to both the screener and handler. Basically, he's an expert at positioning.

I believe Zach Lowe pointed his out in his most recent article, but at 39 Duncan is still remarkably effective defending the play basically solely with his smart positioning.

I strongly disagree. Being myself a Suns fan during the Steve Nash MVP era, I know Duncan is a liability in the pick and rolls with his limited lateral speed. Of course he famously got torched by Amare for almost 40 ppg in 2005 WCF but more importantly he was very poor against Steve Nash in switches. If Duncan was able to switch onto Nash, Spurs defense would be a lot more effective. I understand that this was the best pick and roll team of all-time, but still if he was an elite pick and roll defender, Spurs defense would've performed better.

Warspite,
What is the difference between the pick and rolls that Oscar played and the ones that Pistons played?

Everyone was poor against Nash in the P&R. If Duncan had been a liability on the P&R his whole career, teams would have killed the Spurs running P&Rs to death his whole career, but they did not or could not. Not the greatest aspect of his game, but he is not a liability defending the P&R at all. He more than made up his lack of lateral quickness with his smartness and positioning himself.

It worked with Nash because he is best player of all-time in that aspect of the game. Heck, he is probably the best offensive player of all-time.

Amare did avg 37ppg against the Spurs in the playoffs that season, but they hold Marion to 7ppg and Marion was coming off 23ppg against Dallas. It was about letting one man go wild, stopping the others. And the Spurs was never close to lose that series.

Dirk averaged 33ppg playing with Nash against Minny in the 2002 playoffs running P&Rs to death too. And Nash wasn't even in his prime. Was KG a liability too ?

Nash made Diaw average 24ppg against Dallas in 2006 when Suns played WITHOUT Amare.

Saying that someone is a liability because he was killed by Nash on the P&R is just like saying that someone is a bad post defender because prime Shaq went wild against him. We're not talking about a random guy here. We're talking about a P&R GOD and one of the best offensive players of all-time.

[Ballerhogger]

Joakim Noah should get a mention among modern players, seeing as he just won a DPOY last year almost entirely on the strength of his PnR and help defense. Certainly wasn't his post defending or even shot blocking.

yea he is pretty good. How about ZBO/GASOL they are putting good at Pick and roll defense

[ThaRegul8r]

Clifford Robinson was great defending the pick-and-roll and is now seemingly forgotten as an elite defensive big during his prime and even beyond his years as a useful scorer. He never got enough credit then, for that matter.

In Game 1 of the 1990 Western Conference semifinals against the San Antonio Spurs, Portland won 107-94, “play[ing] without its starting center, Kevin Duckworth, who broke his right hand Tuesday night against Dallas. But Portland still held David Robinson to 9 points on 3-for-11 shooting. Robinson, guarded by the rookie Cliff Robinson, missed his first eight field-goal attempts and tried only one from the field in the second half. This was only the second time this season that he didn’t score in double figures” (The New York Times, May 6, 1990).

In Game 3 of the first round of the 2000 playoffs against the San Antonio Spurs, the Suns defeated the Spurs 101-94 to take a 2-1 series lead, and “Cliff Robinson […] defended the much bigger David Robinson through the fourth quarter, when the Spurs’ big man managed only four points” (Rome News-Tribune, Apr 26, 2000).

“Kevin Garnett, who almost always seems to struggle against Suns defender Cliff Robinson, barely kept his string of double-digit scoring games alive at 245 with 11 points. Garnett was five-for-17 from the field. His last basket, a 22-footer, came with 2:13 to play, then he left the game” (The Free Lance-Star, Jun 8, 2001).

“Upon further review, Webber’s struggles in the Pistons’ 99-88 victory [22 points on 9-for-25 shooting] might have been more about the defensive effort of Cliff Robinson” (Detroit News, Mar 31, 2003).

Just because his team is going to miss the playoffs for the first time in his 14-year career doesn’t mean former Piston Cliff Robinson has stopped playing hard and effectively.

In recent games, he has shut down such dangerous and diverse offensive threats as Chris Webber, Jermaine O’Neal, Pau Gasol and Carmelo Anthony.

“They have guys out here who are worth $120 million,” Robinson said. “I have to be worth at least half of that because I can go out on the floor and be effective at stopping a lot of these guys.”

One person who agrees with him is Kevin Garnett, who said Robinson was “hand down” the best defender he plays against.

“By far,” Garnett said. “Not even close.”
(Detroit News, Mar 21, 2004)

[Shot Clock]

This is an interesting topic, and very hard to accurately predict. One thing is almost a given: the best of the best are almost certainly post 2000 players. Even the 80s/90s Jazz only used it about 30% of the time, if I recall (old info) correctly. Many teams do it far more now, so players and coaches are far more familiar and versed in its application and countering now.

The pick and roll was a core aspect of many teams in the 80's and 90's. This isn't some new invention. Stockton and Malone ran it to death, Daly used it relentlessly with the Bad Boys.

Actually, the Jazz reputation for using it "all of the time" came from using it on around 35% of their possessions, iirc. The Pistons didn't come close.

Most of the league uses it now more than the Jazz did. A lot of the Jazz O was feeding the left block and going into movement away from the ball. Stotts, Carlisle, and a bunch of other coaches have adapted their sets.

Do you just make up statistics or do you have a source?

Daly was notorious for running the same pick and roll play over and over until it was countered then running another.

[bastillon]

Resurrecting this thread 'cause I just thought of another really good one from the modern era: Amir Johnson.

Could you expand on his defense a little bit more? For years now he has been dominating the plus minus ratings, but I've never really seen him play extensively (not really watching the Raps).

[TRNBA12]

Amir is smaller version of Tyson Chandler offensively and defensively. On d high IQ positionally "always in the right place" glue guy even if his defensive plays don't jump off the screen, mobility guarding pnrs, etc. Offensively great at screens, rolling, finishes at high %, though takes more non at rim shots than Chandler, so % isn't as high.

Chandler and some other Cs may have better defensive skill set cause of their size but at PF how many after Serge and AD are known for their defense? So Amir value over the typical defender at PF is unique even if we've seen other defenders with his style and impact at C. Also come in handy to have a PF anchor cause many of the Amir seasons a very bad defender in either Bargnani or Jonas was playing at C so they needed a PF capable of cover up duty

Amir isn't the best starting PF in the league by any means but when taking into account the difference between Patterson (imo should be a 6th man of the year candidate, currently leads bench players in WS which doesn't take into account his floor spacing, and has had a better season than Amir) and the typical weak jobbers the teams with all-star PFs have backing them up, you have to wonder how high up the unheralded Raptors PF rotation ranks compared to rest of the league

[giordunk]

I'd nominate Bosh as well, and it's only been like half a season, but Draymond Green, simply because of his ability to switch so effortlessly.