Peak Jordan vs Peak Lebron

[colts18]

More pics:



LeBron getting doubled in the post without the ball which would be illegal in MJ's era.Wade faked this pass. In 1998, Deron Williams would be called for illegal defense because of that fake.



DeAndre Jordan completely ignores his man in the corner on this play which would be Illegal D in the 90's:



On this play, the Heat aren't running a strong side overload. They are running an actual zone:

[Frosty]

Not sure what you are trying to prove. Zone like defenses are allowed. 3 second rules make true zone defenses illegal. You can't just play a 2-3 zone for instance. I could grab a bunch of stills from any era and you'd see zones. They have literally been playing zones forever. I was reading a book from the early 80's and there were lots of concerns over zones. Bad Boys Jordan rules...zone based.

[GYK]

Has there been a good analysis of how much individual scorers are affected by illegal defense vs handchecking? Is that something that has been comprehensively researched yet?

The only thing we got for sure is the TS% boom that came in 2004. Besides Hand-checking the enforcement of the 3 second violation. An +80% jump in 50 point games since 04 then. Also just five 50 point games from frontcourt players since the rules change.
A lot has changed post rules change as it always does.

[Dr Spaceman]

An +80% jump in 50 point games since 04 then.

Wait, what? I've never seen this referenced before. Do you have a source for this? An 80% jump compared to when?

[GYK]

An +80% jump in 50 point games since 04 then.

Wait, what? I've never seen this referenced before. Do you have a source for this? An 80% jump compared to when?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=pts
75 games over 11 years(05-present)

247 games through start of NBA-04
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... offset=200

Through the 11 years prior to 04-05 just 60 games
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=pts

The 15 more games in the 11 year period(with this season not over) is the 80% increase.

[Dr Spaceman]

An +80% jump in 50 point games since 04 then.

Wait, what? I've never seen this referenced before. Do you have a source for this? An 80% jump compared to when?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=pts
75 games over 11 years(05-present)

247 games through start of NBA-04
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... offset=200

Through the 11 years prior to 04-05 just 60 games
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=pts

The 15 more games in the 11 year period(with this season not over) is the 80% increase.

Um, 15 games = a 25% increase.

[E-Balla]

More pics:



LeBron getting doubled in the post without the ball which would be illegal in MJ's era.Wade faked this pass. In 1998, Deron Williams would be called for illegal defense because of that fake.



DeAndre Jordan completely ignores his man in the corner on this play which would be Illegal D in the 90's:



On this play, the Heat aren't running a strong side overload. They are running an actual zone:

Teams didn't run zones back then? Phil and Jordan were constantly complaining about guys zoning up against him back then and while it's not a true zone they don't have true zones now anyways.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE[/youtube]

I don't care what you say that's a lot of zones.

Jordan also played the GOAT modern defense in the Pat Riley Knicks of the mid 90s - another team that "didn't run zones".

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ[/youtube]

Look at how effectively they kept Jordan out the paint and how he was able to dominate from midrange consistently to make up for it.

[PaulieWal]

Wait, what? I've never seen this referenced before. Do you have a source for this? An 80% jump compared to when?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=pts
75 games over 11 years(05-present)

247 games through start of NBA-04
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... offset=200

Through the 11 years prior to 04-05 just 60 games
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=pts

The 15 more games in the 11 year period(with this season not over) is the 80% increase.

Um, 15 games = a 25% increase.

I am pretty sure 80% sounds better so no need to muck this up.

[GYK]

Wait, what? I've never seen this referenced before. Do you have a source for this? An 80% jump compared to when?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=pts
75 games over 11 years(05-present)

247 games through start of NBA-04
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... offset=200

Through the 11 years prior to 04-05 just 60 games
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=pts

The 15 more games in the 11 year period(with this season not over) is the 80% increase.

Um, 15 games = a 25% increase.

True, 60 games is 80% of 75 games.
I looked at it wrong that still is however a large portion of games post hand-check has 23% of the 50 point games.

[Quotatious]

I don't see why it's necessary to define "peak" as one season. It seems pretty arbitrary to me. You could just as easily define it as best two seasons, or best half-season.

I think LeBron was basically at his best throughout 09-14. There's no need to pick a year. Just because he played really well during one particular run ('09) doesn't prove that "peak LeBron" is as reliable a playoff performer as Jordan. His larger body of work during the period in which he can be considered at his best tells us that he isn't. So I'm taking MJ.

It's kind of an unwritten rule on this board that "peak" is one season, the best season of a player's career, and his '09-'14 stretch would be called "prime".

BTW - it's not true that LeBron was at the same level each season during his '09-'14 stretch - his 2011 season was FAR worse than the other five (and IMO 2009, 2012 and 2013 are better than 2010 and 2014, too).

[GYK]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=pts
75 games over 11 years(05-present)

247 games through start of NBA-04
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... offset=200

Through the 11 years prior to 04-05 just 60 games
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=pts

The 15 more games in the 11 year period(with this season not over) is the 80% increase.

Um, 15 games = a 25% increase.

I am pretty sure 80% sounds better so no need to muck this up.

Oh I messed up one thing it's worth discrediting the clear increase in percentage and games.
80% or 25% it's the first you ever heard or thought of it and I'm sure you just rehash points others thought out.

[PaulieWal]

Oh I messed up one thing it's worth discrediting the clear increase in percentage and games.
80% or 25% it's the first you ever heard or thought of it and I'm sure you just rehash points others thought out.

It's a joke, no need to take it that seriously.

Yeah, I am inside the head of everyone on this board and just rehash what others are thinking.

[E-Balla]

Has there been a good analysis of how much individual scorers are affected by illegal defense vs handchecking? Is that something that has been comprehensively researched yet?

I honestly think they had even effects but that it made it easier for perimeter players since they get more calls nowadays (yes I've posted it many times look at foul rates back then and now and don't remind me of the 2 point to free throw ratio increase). The main offset comes in the 90s actually having the best crop of Cs ever driving up league averages with their dominance while centers now don't have any offensive games as a whole.

[GYK]

Oh I messed up one thing it's worth discrediting the clear increase in percentage and games.
80% or 25% it's the first you ever heard or thought of it and I'm sure you just rehash points others thought out.

It's a joke, no need to take it that seriously.

Yeah, I am inside the head of everyone on this board and just rehash what others are thinking.

It wasn't a joke or your bad at jokes.

Rehash points thought out in others post. Points is n important part of that sentence, if not used what you rehash just doesn't make sense.

[PaulieWal]

Rehash points thought out in others post. Points is n important part of that sentence, if not used what you rehash just doesn't make sense.

What the heck are you talking about here?

[GYK]

Rehash points thought out in others post. Points is n important part of that sentence, if not used what you rehash just doesn't make sense.

What the heck are you talking about here?

Should have quoted our entire conversation.
Rehash points..was said by me
You replied, I would guess sarcastically, that you're in everyone's minds able to rehash their ideas. Implying you don't use others thoughts, just come to the same conclusion.
I pointed out you left out "points" as in their arguments. Ideas. Philosophies. Without that key phrase(or understanding) you lose substance to my sentence or an argument that gained traction you like.
Now we're at crazy smiley face.

[JulesWinnfield]

Posting screenshots of opponents getting away with illegal defense against jordan at times does not mean it wasn't illegal. I could post a bunch of clips of Roy Hibbert in the paint for more than 3 seconds, it doesn't mean there wasn't a rule against it. Sometimes officials were somewhat lax on calling illegal d just as they are with 3 seconds (and as you said, Phil would work the officials publicly to point it out) but that doesn't make it legal. It just means it wasn't called each and every time it occurred, just like almost every other call. What you did would basically be the equivalent of me putting together a reel of lebron plays where he gets fouled at the rim with no call, and saying "fouls weren't even illegal when lebron played"

[PaulieWal]

Rehash points thought out in others post. Points is n important part of that sentence, if not used what you rehash just doesn't make sense.

What the heck are you talking about here?

Should have quoted our entire conversation.
Rehash points..was said by me
You replied, I would guess sarcastically, that you're in everyone's minds able to rehash their ideas. Implying you don't use others thoughts, just come to the same conclusion.
I pointed out you left out "points" as in their arguments. Ideas. Philosophies. Without that key phrase(or understanding) you lose substance to my sentence or an argument that gained traction you like.
Now we're at crazy smiley face.

And I ask you again, what exactly do you mean? Yes, I made a snarky comment in reference to the whole 80% vs. 25% thing and then you made a comment about me rehashing thoughts. I am asking you what you mean by that because I am really not following you here. I am not trying to bait you or troll you but I don't follow you at all. I apologize in advance if English is your second language.

[GYK]

What the heck are you talking about here?

Should have quoted our entire conversation.
Rehash points..was said by me
You replied, I would guess sarcastically, that you're in everyone's minds able to rehash their ideas. Implying you don't use others thoughts, just come to the same conclusion.
I pointed out you left out "points" as in their arguments. Ideas. Philosophies. Without that key phrase(or understanding) you lose substance to my sentence or an argument that gained traction you like.
Now we're at crazy smiley face.

And I ask you again, what exactly do you mean? Yes, I made a snarky comment to the whole 80% vs. 25% thing and then you made a comment about me rehashing thoughts. I am asking you what you mean by that because I am really not following you here. I am not trying to bait you or troll you but I don't follow you at all. I apologize in advance if English is your second language.

English isn't my second language.
That's correct spelling and sentence structure.
If you don't get it you just don't get it.
I'm even keeping the sentences short and on the tab to keep any misunderstandings at a minimum for you.

[PaulieWal]

Should have quoted our entire conversation.
Rehash points..was said by me
You replied, I would guess sarcastically, that you're in everyone's minds able to rehash their ideas. Implying you don't use others thoughts, just come to the same conclusion.
I pointed out you left out "points" as in their arguments. Ideas. Philosophies. Without that key phrase(or understanding) you lose substance to my sentence or an argument that gained traction you like.
Now we're at crazy smiley face.

And I ask you again, what exactly do you mean? Yes, I made a snarky comment to the whole 80% vs. 25% thing and then you made a comment about me rehashing thoughts. I am asking you what you mean by that because I am really not following you here. I am not trying to bait you or troll you but I don't follow you at all. I apologize in advance if English is your second language.

English isn't my second language.
That's correct spelling and sentence structure.
If you don't get it you just don't get it.
I'm even keeping the sentences short and on the tab to keep any misunderstandings at a minimum for you.

And I ask you one last time, what are you getting at? We all post here with different thoughts and ideas. Like last night we had a discussion on Whiteside vs. Vucevic and now in this thread people are discussing MJ/LeBron, which BTW I have not made a comment on. Instead we are discussing something silly. Your rehashing thoughts idea or that if I am not rehashing I don't make any sense comment makes no sense.

It's more like you didn't like my sarcastic comment about the 80% wrong stat and now you are getting overly defensive saying that I rehashed (I assume Spaceman's thoughts). Anyway, have a good day.