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) but athletic and talented. Dampier with great jumper from anywhere, Issel struggles a bit with his jumper. I must watch second half tomorrow 
(I think Artis is very underrated by Spurs fan because of Admiral and Timmy)
70sFan wrote:After I made this thread I watch a few Gilmore games in ABA during Colonels era. Now I'd like to compare this to his NBA version. Unfourtanetly I can only find one game with him in NBA - Lakers vs Spurs in 1983 playoffs. No Chicago games, no more spurs games. Does anybody have some of his games? Spurs would be great, bacause I'm Spurs fan
HomoSapien wrote:Warspite, the greatest poster in the history of realgm.
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I never watched young Gilmore. I just watched a few minutes and I don't think he was all that athletic in the way young Kareem or David Robinson were athletic.
What strikes me about Gilmore is that besides being very tall and strong Gilmore is efficient with his body and is reading plays correctly and correctly timing his jumps and other motions.
I do remember older stiff legged Gilmore from watching him while he played. Even as an immobile big man Gilmore (Also Tree Rollins) was always in the right place doing the right thing defensively. Andrew Bogut has a little more springy ess than old Gilmore but there is a similarity in how Bogut defends to how old Gilmore defended.
On offense I found old Gilmore very interesting to watch because he seemed very mechanical and predictable and stiff and yet because his moves were so well rehearsed and precise thy were very efficient and effective. The defender knows exactly what is coming and can't do anything about it. I felt the same way about old Kareem and old Bib Laneir in that they were sort of stiff and mechanical and predictable but their move was somewhat unstoppable even though the defender knows what is going to happen.
There is nobody playing that way today unless I count high release fall away jump shots from Dirk and Duncan as being comparable to the low post moves of Gilmore, Kareem and Lanier. I mean here a big man essentially says this is my move and you can't stop it.
Winsome Gerbil wrote:By the 2nd half of his career he was huge, strong, slow, a complete tank that went where he wanted, couldn't be moved, but lacked mobility and quickness. Stuck to the paint. I agree with the 3rd strongest center guesses, after Shaq and Wilt. Maybe even in front of Wilt, who knows.
Peak ABA by the numbers was his rookie year, but that's such a hard situation to read with the youth and chaos of that league. Was he really just better then, or the competition worse? Was quicker then, a bit like Wilt in that he wasn't as massive. Tall, but not the enormorus heavy footed pillar he was later on.
Had an adjustment year his first year in the NBA, then his NBA peak was 2nd and 3rd years, 77-78 and 78-79 before he declined into just a good 17-10 type center for a long stretch (think that was the knee injury, which they didn't have the medicine to fix as well back then).
He was never that highly skilled a center. Not an offensive genius. Not a great passer, nor shooter, nor ballhandler. But he had all the post basics, a half hook to finish with, and was just so damn big and strong that if he got you pinned deep, it was an automatic conversion. He was too meat and potatoes basic to challenge the true top centers, but certainly I think has legit arguments against most of the 10-20 guys like Reed, Cowens, Lanier, Bellamy etc.
70sFan wrote:Winsome Gerbil wrote:By the 2nd half of his career he was huge, strong, slow, a complete tank that went where he wanted, couldn't be moved, but lacked mobility and quickness. Stuck to the paint. I agree with the 3rd strongest center guesses, after Shaq and Wilt. Maybe even in front of Wilt, who knows.
Peak ABA by the numbers was his rookie year, but that's such a hard situation to read with the youth and chaos of that league. Was he really just better then, or the competition worse? Was quicker then, a bit like Wilt in that he wasn't as massive. Tall, but not the enormorus heavy footed pillar he was later on.
Had an adjustment year his first year in the NBA, then his NBA peak was 2nd and 3rd years, 77-78 and 78-79 before he declined into just a good 17-10 type center for a long stretch (think that was the knee injury, which they didn't have the medicine to fix as well back then).
He was never that highly skilled a center. Not an offensive genius. Not a great passer, nor shooter, nor ballhandler. But he had all the post basics, a half hook to finish with, and was just so damn big and strong that if he got you pinned deep, it was an automatic conversion. He was too meat and potatoes basic to challenge the true top centers, but certainly I think has legit arguments against most of the 10-20 guys like Reed, Cowens, Lanier, Bellamy etc.
Watch some videos from ABA posted in this thread, younger Artis is a different beast. More athletic, quicker and more mobile while still looks big/strong
70sFan wrote:I have question for guys who watches more of his games (NBA mainly). How good man low-post defender he was? People often choose him as a great hipotetical defender vs Shaq, but from what I've seen he wasn't very psychical. In this game Steve Johnson (who was much shorter) doesn't have problem with fighting for position vs Artis. He even scores some easy baskets (I remember 2). When I watched Artis vs Kareem matchup, he just stands and play (very good) positional defense, but doesn't push or contest Kareem shots at all (I know contesting skyhook is very hard). So how good would he really be vs Shaq? How good did he guard strong low-post players like Lanier or Moses?
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I never saw pre injury Len Elmore. Elmore had an awful lot of steals for a center. So Gilmore could not or would not box out Len Elmore? Was Elmore like Rodman? Players stronger than Rodman could not box out Rodman because of his constant motion, athleticism / leaping, technique of simply deflecting rebounds rather than securing them until his second jump, and good reads on where the rebound would go.70sFan wrote:I have question for guys who watches more of his games (NBA mainly). How good man low-post defender he was? People often choose him as a great hipotetical defender vs Shaq, but from what I've seen he wasn't very psychical. In this game Steve Johnson (who was much shorter) doesn't have problem with fighting for position vs Artis. He even scores some easy baskets (I remember 2). When I watched Artis vs Kareem matchup, he just stands and play (very good) positional defense, but doesn't push or contest Kareem shots at all (I know contesting skyhook is very hard). So how good would he really be vs Shaq? How good did he guard strong low-post players like Lanier or Moses?
Steve Johnson's career per 36 minute numbers, are 19 points a game at 57% fg. I think Johnson could score against anybody but I think Johnson had flaws in his game that account for him not never having a 30 minute per game season. It would surprise me if Gilmore could not push Johnson around when Gimore wanted to.
Maybe Gilmore did not always use his strength and maybe his most impressive strength was upper body. Perhaps Gilmore was concerned that he would pick up fouls ore was pacing himself due to limited stamina.
I do remember Gilmore as strong but am not sure that Parish did not overstate Gilmore's strength.
I remembered the Parish quote, Googled and scraped this from posters at an Inside hoops forum:
Boston Globe - Dec 9, 1992 Robert Parish Said,
"He's the strongest guy I've played against since Artis Gilmore. "He's a very solid 300 pounds. He's all man."
Christian Science Monitor - Jan 25, 1993
After the Celtics lost to the Magic, 113-94, Robert Parish said that in his 17- year career, only longtime Chicago Bulls star Artis Gilmore was physically stronger than O'Neal, but that Shaq was more athletic - "and that is a very scary thought," he said in mock seriousness.
Sun Times - May 6 2011
“Artis was one of the strongest guys I ever played against,” Bulls assistant coach Ed Pinckney said. “He almost broke my arm in two one time when I tried to block his dunk.”
70sFan wrote:That's why I would love to see opinon of someone who watched more than a few games of Gilmore. He looks very strong and definitly is, but I'm not sure if he is on the same class in term of strengh as Wilt and Shaq. Gilmore himself said that he could fight with Shaq strengh wise. If someone who watched him more could tell me how good of a low-post defender Gilmore was and what kind of defense he used to play, it would be very helpfull.
Quotatious wrote:70sFan wrote:That's why I would love to see opinon of someone who watched more than a few games of Gilmore. He looks very strong and definitly is, but I'm not sure if he is on the same class in term of strengh as Wilt and Shaq. Gilmore himself said that he could fight with Shaq strengh wise. If someone who watched him more could tell me how good of a low-post defender Gilmore was and what kind of defense he used to play, it would be very helpfull.
I don't believe Gilmore was as strong as prime Shaq or late 60s/early 70s Wilt, but he may be top 5 in NBA history. Nate Thurmond, Karl Malone, Alonzo Mourning - these guys seem to be in Gilmore's class in terms of physical strength (and Wayne Embry probably wasn't far behind, and maybe also mid 90s Charles Oakley).
By the way - between peak Shaq and Wilt (I mean peak in terms of physical strength, not necessarily playing ability), Shaq definitely had better lower body strength, his legs were so incredibly strong (I forgot who it was, but one of the opposing centers in the early 2000s said that trying to deny Shaq a deep low post position was like trying to move a truck with bare hands). Shaq extremely thick body also made it easier for him to protect the ball and create space.
Wilt was a bit stronger in terms of upper body, which allowed him to be a better rebounder, he could also bench press more, but in terms of functional strength for basketball, I'd give Shaq the edge. To me, Wilt was the better overall athlete, though (especially in terms of stamina and durability, but also speed and leaping ability).
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Statistically Gilmore recovers from his injury and gets his shot blocking totals and other stats back up but that might be a substitution of higher basketball IQ for lost athleticism.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXCHDcSHBS4
3 second video of Gilmore blocking a Kareem Sky Hook. Very impressive.
I would love to see prime bulldozer mode Moses Malone vs Gilmore but I could not find any video of that.
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Statistically Gilmore recovers from his injury and gets his shot blocking totals and other stats back up but that might be a substitution of higher basketball IQ for lost athleticism.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXCHDcSHBS4
3 second video of Gilmore blocking a Kareem Sky Hook. Very impressive.
I would love to see prime bulldozer mode Moses Malone vs Gilmore but I could not find any video of that.
Maybe I could find stats to show me if Gilmore was able to reduce Moses Malone's offensive rebounding. Moses was relying mostly brute force to push people out of his way and rebound his own misses. I wonder if Artis could resist Moses much better than Dikembe resisted Shaq.
Winsome Gerbil wrote:SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Statistically Gilmore recovers from his injury and gets his shot blocking totals and other stats back up but that might be a substitution of higher basketball IQ for lost athleticism.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXCHDcSHBS4
3 second video of Gilmore blocking a Kareem Sky Hook. Very impressive.
I would love to see prime bulldozer mode Moses Malone vs Gilmore but I could not find any video of that.
Maybe I could find stats to show me if Gilmore was able to reduce Moses Malone's offensive rebounding. Moses was relying mostly brute force to push people out of his way and rebound his own misses. I wonder if Artis could resist Moses much better than Dikembe resisted Shaq.
I forgot about Dawkins.
yeah, Chocolate Thunder was a huge beast too.
Still, in the end, none of these guys were Shaq. Wilt was immensely strong and maybe the GOAT big man athlete. As we've gone along now you might even be able to say a once in a century athlete for a 7 footer. But Shaq is just in a weight class (literally) by himself. Guys like Gilmore and Dawkins were huge physical forces for any other center, but there's no way they could move Shaq. I remember a game in his Boston days, by which point of course he was a ridiculous 350lb + blob, but still, vs. a young Cousins. And Boogie obviously makes a living by knocking the crap out of modern bigs. And several times he went in on power drives and slammed into Shaq, and just bounced off him like a little kid. Didn't look like he had any idea what to do about that either. Might have been the first time in his life where the other player didn't at least grunt and give ground.
These big 270+ centers, Wilt, and Artis and Moses and Cousins and whoever, they're huge guys. But even a trim Shaq outweighed them by 30lbs, and prime Shaq by closer to 50. Fat Shaq might have been approaching 100. The only guys who seemed to be able to not be driven right out of bounds by a burrowing Shaq were the huge 7'3" -7'5" 290-300lb guys like Arvydas, Smits and Yao, and even those guys would just catch a Shaq shoulder in the midriff and bounce backward. Old man Gilmore was listed up around that 290 size, and so maybe at the end of his career he could have done something similar, but its still just a question of slowing the physical beating not stopping it.