Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG

[NYKnicksTAPE]

I honestly don't know what he can do right now. We don't have the assets to trade for a good PG. They're talking about Victor Oladipo being involved in a trade for Teague, we're talking about offering up dudes like Grant or Afflalo and a 2018 protected 1st...

So many teams can beat our offers...we don't have many valuable pieces. Maybe we can swing a trade for MCW

In FA, I don't see Conley coming here, Rondo's not coming here, Lin's most likely not coming here. Who else is out there?

Real talk, we might not get a good PG until 2017 FA. There's going to be so many PG's available then, we're bound to get one of them

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

Modern PG? I'll settle for a starting PG.

Modern PG would be our starting PG. You wouldn't want Jrue Holiday?

I would take Holiday, for sure. Sorry, I was trying to make the point that we don't even have a starting-calibre PG on the roster, much less a modern one. The current version of Calderon wouldn't have even been a starter in Phil's time, so I'd settle for anyone who would be, but obviously a more modern PG would be preferred.

[TrueWarrior]

Jerian has been such a disappointment man.

I see the flashes and still think he could be a good PG with a few improvements, but my main issue with him is that he just looks like a scared little kid out there. Even when he's on the bench. I don't see a 23 year old man who just had a child. It's pathetic when I look at him. It's harsh and he's still a rook who's learning, but I expected somebody completely different.

With that said, after the deadline if we haven't made any moves... then Jerian needs to play more. He's the only hope on the team to give us what we need. Jose isn't helping now or the future. There is no reason to play him. Problem is Kurt is fighting for the playoffs and his job, so that usually means the vets get favored no matter how bad they play.

At this point I'd settle for a couple D League call ups. That's how we got Lin and Gallo after all. It's really hard to be worse than Jose and Sasha last night.

[GONYK]

I honestly don't know what he can do right now. We don't have the assets to trade for a good PG. They're talking about Victor Oladipo being involved in a trade for Teague, we're talking about offering up dudes like Grant or Afflalo and a 2018 protected 1st...

So many teams can beat our offers...we don't have many valuable pieces. Maybe we can swing a trade for MCW

In FA, I don't see Conley coming here, Rondo's not coming here, Lin's most likely not coming here. Who else is out there?

Real talk, we might not get a good PG until 2017 FA. There's going to be so many PG's available then, we're bound to get one of them

That's exactly it.

It isn't that Phil doesn't want a modern PG, it's that he can't afford one at the moment.

Hindsight says he should have gotten a Lin type over Seraphin, but that still isn't truly a solution.

If you are talking about pooling your pennies together to go after Michael Carter-Williams, then you know you don't have much to play with.

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

Jerian has been such a disappointment man.

I see the flashes and still think he could be a good PG with a few improvements, but my main issue with him is that he just looks like a scared little kid out there. Even when he's on the bench. I don't see a 23 year old man who just had a child. It's pathetic when I look at him. It's harsh and he's still a rook who's learning, but I expected somebody completely different.

With that said, after the deadline if we haven't made any moves... then Jerian needs to play more. He's the only hope on the team to give us what we need. Jose isn't helping now or the future. There is no reason to play him. Problem is Kurt is fighting for the playoffs and his job, so that usually means the vets get favored no matter how bad they play.

At this point I'd settle for a couple D League call ups. That's how we got Lin and Gallo after all. It's really hard to be worse than Jose and Sasha last night.

Well, we aren't winning any games with Calderon as the starting PG, so unless we can pull off a trade then I agree we should just throw Grant out there more. In the NBA, playing time is the best way to improve so let's give him more minutes. Yes, there will be mistakes, but there will also be more opportunity for him to build confidence, especially if the minutes are guaranteed.

[Capn'O]

I honestly don't know what he can do right now. We don't have the assets to trade for a good PG. They're talking about Victor Oladipo being involved in a trade for Teague, we're talking about offering up dudes like Grant or Afflalo and a 2018 protected 1st...

So many teams can beat our offers...we don't have many valuable pieces. Maybe we can swing a trade for MCW

In FA, I don't see Conley coming here, Rondo's not coming here, Lin's most likely not coming here. Who else is out there?

Real talk, we might not get a good PG until 2017 FA. There's going to be so many PG's available then, we're bound to get one of them

That's exactly it.

It isn't that Phil doesn't want a modern PG, it's that he can't afford one at the moment.

Hindsight says he should have gotten a Lin type over Seraphin, but that still isn't truly a solution.

If you are talking about pooling your pennies together to go after Michael Carter-Williams, then you know you don't have much to play with.

I'd argue foresight said that and that it applied to the DWill deal too.

[GONYK]

I honestly don't know what he can do right now. We don't have the assets to trade for a good PG. They're talking about Victor Oladipo being involved in a trade for Teague, we're talking about offering up dudes like Grant or Afflalo and a 2018 protected 1st...

So many teams can beat our offers...we don't have many valuable pieces. Maybe we can swing a trade for MCW

In FA, I don't see Conley coming here, Rondo's not coming here, Lin's most likely not coming here. Who else is out there?

Real talk, we might not get a good PG until 2017 FA. There's going to be so many PG's available then, we're bound to get one of them

That's exactly it.

It isn't that Phil doesn't want a modern PG, it's that he can't afford one at the moment.

Hindsight says he should have gotten a Lin type over Seraphin, but that still isn't truly a solution.

If you are talking about pooling your pennies together to go after Michael Carter-Williams, then you know you don't have much to play with.

I'd argue foresight said that.

Touche

[ctorres]

Anyone in here familiar with BJ Armstrong's skill set, style of play, and talent level from the '93 through '95 seasons when he was the starting PG for those Bulls teams coached by Phil?

I've only looked at a few YouTube highlights and stats, but BJ Armstrong seems like the most "modern" PG to play within the triangle.

I don't want to use Gary Payton as an example because he admittedly struggled with the triangle and only played in it for one year.

Any other PG's under Phil were either guys in the twilight of their career (Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Brian Shaw) or guys who on any other squad were either reserves or not even NBA-caliber players (Derek Fisher, Jordan Farmar, Smush Parker).

BJ Armstrong had 3 years of strong play with the Bulls from '93 through '95 and one pretty solid season with the Warriors in '96. However, by '97 (his 8th season in the league at 29 years old), his production had drastically diminished.

Nevertheless, during the 4 solid years I referenced, BJ Armstrong's production seems comparable to what you'd ideally get from a Mike Conley, Brandon Knight, J'rue Holiday, Goran Dragic, or even Darren Collison playing in the triangle. Their numbers would potentially be decent enough to justify their salaries, and also appease each player in the sense of allowing them to have an important role on a good team without having to completely sacrifice their individual stats.

However, I would not expect the same type of production from a high assist/ball dominant PG like a Rajon Rondo, Ricky Rubio, John Wall, etc.

Judging on his athleticism from YouTube highlights as well as his ridiculously good FG percentages, I am assuming that BJ Armstrong was much more talented than the likes of a Mario Chalmers-caliber point guard.

To put it short, could anyone in here just tell me how good BJ Armstrong was and if it's realistic to target a PG that plays like him? If anything, I may go into the Bulls thread to ask them about him.

[NOOB77]

I honestly don't know what he can do right now. We don't have the assets to trade for a good PG. They're talking about Victor Oladipo being involved in a trade for Teague, we're talking about offering up dudes like Grant or Afflalo and a 2018 protected 1st...

So many teams can beat our offers...we don't have many valuable pieces. Maybe we can swing a trade for MCW

In FA, I don't see Conley coming here, Rondo's not coming here, Lin's most likely not coming here. Who else is out there?

Real talk, we might not get a good PG until 2017 FA. There's going to be so many PG's available then, we're bound to get one of them

That's exactly it.

It isn't that Phil doesn't want a modern PG, it's that he can't afford one at the moment.

Hindsight says he should have gotten a Lin type over Seraphin, but that still isn't truly a solution.

If you are talking about pooling your pennies together to go after Michael Carter-Williams, then you know you don't have much to play with.

As much as everyone bags on MCW I actually think he would be a pretty good fit and a cheaper option in this market. Can defend and create something we lack at that position.

[R-DAWG]

MCW would be a great buy low candidate for us. He can at least defend at a passable level and we have enough decent shooters to cover for his lack of shooting and give him outlets to pass to on his drives to the hoop.

Doesn't Jerian Grant fit this exact description. Give the kid consistent minutes please.

[NOOB77]

I also think Collison can be had and would be a good fit. I said in another thread that we might be able to do a Collison and Belinelli -4- AA trade with Sac. AA would bring a Vet to that locker room and one that has been with Karl and knows his system which he might be able to help translate to others. Collison would provide a nice option for us at the PG and Belinelli would be a nice shooter off the bench. This would allow Gallo to start at the 2G.

[Context]

Well Phil has said and can be quoted on it, that penetration is an integral part to offense. Why we don't have anyone that can fulfill such an important part of his philosophy who the hell knows. Maybe he expected more slashing for Calderon and Melo. Neither have panned out. Either way, he's aware.

My hypothesis is that Phil was trying to keep Jose's trade value as high as possible. Keeping him as a starter, earning meaningless offensive stats might be enough to fool another front office. If he were to be benched or cut/stretched that would give us zero return. I would be shocked that Calderon starts, if he's still here, after the trade deadline. I would also expect that we call up some more penetrating guards to experiment if we don't improve our record to be in contention for a playoff bid.

Exactly my thoughts. It's a mystery why Phil didn't add one more veteran PG in the offseason though because Jose's failure was apparent last year.

what veteran point guard was out there Red?

[Knicksfan1992]

MCW would be a great buy low candidate for us. He can at least defend at a passable level and we have enough decent shooters to cover for his lack of shooting and give him outlets to pass to on his drives to the hoop.

Doesn't Jerian Grant fit this exact description. Give the kid consistent minutes please.

We've given Jerian Grant consistent minutes at times and he's looked terrible and not confident. His mistakes aren't the type that are easily fixable. he just looks scared. MCW is only a year older and has proven he can be effective in some capacity at the NBA level. Grant hasn't yet. If MCW was like Teague's age I would agree with you but, they're practically the same age and we could buy low on a guy for once instead of overspending again.

[R-DAWG]

MCW would be a great buy low candidate for us. He can at least defend at a passable level and we have enough decent shooters to cover for his lack of shooting and give him outlets to pass to on his drives to the hoop.

Doesn't Jerian Grant fit this exact description. Give the kid consistent minutes please.

We've given Jerian Grant consistent minutes at times and he's looked terrible and not confident. His mistakes aren't the type that are easily fixable. he just looks scared. MCW is only a year older and has proven he can be effective in some capacity at the NBA level. Grant hasn't yet. If MCW was like Teague's age I would agree with you but, they're practically the same age and we could buy low on a guy for once instead of overspending again.

All MCW has proven is that he can put up good stats on a bad team.
If we could buy low on MCW, ie a 2nd round pick, he's worth acquiring
But if we have to give up anything of value besides maybe swapping him and Grant not worth it

[moocow007]

He needs someone that can create easy shots is what he needs. He doesn't really need a PG per se. Just so happens PG's generally are the guys that are best skilled to create easy shots so sure it lends to the notion but they don't technically need a point guard. They need a shot creator that can create better shot opportunities, for himself, for his teammates (either by being able to set them up or by being able to draw defenses away so their shots are better shots).

He had Jordan and Pippen in Chicago and Kobe and Shaq in LA. Those are guys that can create their own shot (easily) AND get their teammates better shot opportunities (either by their ability to set their teammates up or the wide open looks their sheer presence generates). I'm not sure if he's minimizing what those guys impact to shot creation and easy shots were but he has to realize that Carmelo Anthony (while an excellent offensive player) isn't any of the 4 above much less handling the role that both pairs offered.

[JXL]

He needs someone that can create easy shots is what he needs. He doesn't really need a PG per se. Just so happens PG's generally are the guys that are best skilled to create easy shots so sure it lends to the notion but they don't technically need a point guard. They need a shot creator that can create better shot opportunities, for himself, for his teammates (either by being able to set them up or by being able to draw defenses away so their shots are better shots).

He had Jordan and Pippen in Chicago and Kobe and Shaq in LA. Those are guys that can create their own shot (easily) AND get their teammates better shot opportunities (either by their ability to set their teammates up or the wide open looks their sheer presence generates).

Those were great talents. Our roster doesn't have that. They need a modern PG to set up himself and others.

[moocow007]

Doesn't Jerian Grant fit this exact description. Give the kid consistent minutes please.

We've given Jerian Grant consistent minutes at times and he's looked terrible and not confident. His mistakes aren't the type that are easily fixable. he just looks scared. MCW is only a year older and has proven he can be effective in some capacity at the NBA level. Grant hasn't yet. If MCW was like Teague's age I would agree with you but, they're practically the same age and we could buy low on a guy for once instead of overspending again.

All MCW has proven is that he can put up good stats on a bad team.
If we could buy low on MCW, ie a 2nd round pick, he's worth acquiring
But if we have to give up anything of value besides maybe swapping him and Grant not worth it

O'Quinn (who is not playing) for MCW would make sense. Both have about the same exact contract.

[moocow007]

He needs someone that can create easy shots is what he needs. He doesn't really need a PG per se. Just so happens PG's generally are the guys that are best skilled to create easy shots so sure it lends to the notion but they don't technically need a point guard. They need a shot creator that can create better shot opportunities, for himself, for his teammates (either by being able to set them up or by being able to draw defenses away so their shots are better shots).

He had Jordan and Pippen in Chicago and Kobe and Shaq in LA. Those are guys that can create their own shot (easily) AND get their teammates better shot opportunities (either by their ability to set their teammates up or the wide open looks their sheer presence generates).

Those were great talents. Our roster doesn't have that. They need a modern PG to set up himself and others.

Bottom line is he needs someone that can create shots for himself and others. If that's a PG then it's a PG. But again, it doesn't have to be a PG. I'm merely pointing out the emphasis is on shot creation not position the guy plays. Kevin Durant or Dwayne Wade would be perfect examples of additions that would fill that need and neither are PG's.

[dakomish23]

I honestly don't know what he can do right now. We don't have the assets to trade for a good PG. They're talking about Victor Oladipo being involved in a trade for Teague, we're talking about offering up dudes like Grant or Afflalo and a 2018 protected 1st...

So many teams can beat our offers...we don't have many valuable pieces. Maybe we can swing a trade for MCW

In FA, I don't see Conley coming here, Rondo's not coming here, Lin's most likely not coming here. Who else is out there?

Real talk, we might not get a good PG until 2017 FA. There's going to be so many PG's available then, we're bound to get one of them

Knowing us we'll sign more centers.

It's not just PJax. We have been assuming that band aids would be good enough for decades now. The one time we tried, we got Marbury.

So yeah, no hope

[moocow007]

I honestly don't know what he can do right now. We don't have the assets to trade for a good PG. They're talking about Victor Oladipo being involved in a trade for Teague, we're talking about offering up dudes like Grant or Afflalo and a 2018 protected 1st...

So many teams can beat our offers...we don't have many valuable pieces. Maybe we can swing a trade for MCW

In FA, I don't see Conley coming here, Rondo's not coming here, Lin's most likely not coming here. Who else is out there?

Real talk, we might not get a good PG until 2017 FA. There's going to be so many PG's available then, we're bound to get one of them

Knowing us we'll sign more centers.

It's not just PJax. We have been assuming that band aids would be good enough for decades now. The one time we tried, we got Marbury.

So yeah, no hope

Marbury was worth the risk IF...and that was the problem...the GM had the whits to be able to get other players around him to do anything. The best player Marbury had was 1.5 years of an effective Eddy Curry. That was like a broken Amare Stoudemire for Carmelo Anthony. Hopefully at least Porzingis becomes the real deal.