Is Alex Len a Bust?

[LukasBMW]

Not a bust.

A bust is a high draft pick that fails to live up to expectations while multiple players picked behind him in the draft become all stars.

That draft was historically bad AND there are still ZERO (As in 0.00) all stars from that draft.

The players that COULD still become all stars were passed by many other teams.


A better classification would be DISAPPOINTMENT.

When I saw highlights of Len, I was amazed at how fast and fluid he was for a 7 footer. His face up game taking other bigs off the dribble was great. His size and athleticism combined with his sweet shooting touch made me happy we choose him over McLemore and Noel. I was a BIT concerned that even though Len dominated Noel on the stat sheet in their one college match up, Noel seemed to show more potential with his moves. That said, neither player has consistently impressed me on the pro level.


I really really hope Len gets it together. He looked super bad against Gobert, but that is a tough matchup and everyone has "off" nights. I think everyone here wanted his head after that game. If Len can perform at a double/double level 80% of the time, then he easily is a top backup center and an average starting center even if a few certain match ups expose his weaknesses.

[theSUNalsoRISES]

Not a bust.

A bust is a high draft pick that fails to live up to expectations while multiple players picked behind him in the draft become all stars.

That draft was historically bad AND there are still ZERO (As in 0.00) all stars from that draft.

The players that COULD still become all stars were passed by many other teams.


A better classification would be DISAPPOINTMENT.

When I saw highlights of Len, I was amazed at how fast and fluid he was for a 7 footer. His face up game taking other bigs off the dribble was great. His size and athleticism combined with his sweet shooting touch made me happy we choose him over McLemore and Noel. I was a BIT concerned that even though Len dominated Noel on the stat sheet in their one college match up, Noel seemed to show more potential with his moves. That said, neither player has consistently impressed me on the pro level.


I really really hope Len gets it together. He looked super bad against Gobert, but that is a tough matchup and everyone has "off" nights. I think everyone here wanted his head after that game. If Len can perform at a double/double level 80% of the time, then he easily is a top backup center and an average starting center even if a few certain match ups expose his weaknesses.

I would add1 this but due to Gary Johnson, I just can't do it, sorry bro.

[LukasBMW]

The real question is do we offer him an extension in the offseason. He will...I repeat...WILL get an offer for $12-$15 mil a year.

The crappy part is that will hit our cap space HARD, and all of the top 2017 free agents probably stay put. We really need to preserve cap space for 2018 when we have a shot at landing top talent.

[darealjuice]

If you definition of a bust is a player that underachieves relative to the standards set for his draft position and has multiple players drafted after them with more successful careers, then yeah I'd call him a bust. Obviously he has time to turn it around, and it's not like he's on his way out of the league or anything, but at this point in his career he has not been what you'd expect from the 5th overall pick.

I don't think the players drafted after him not being All Stars only 3 years after the draft makes him any less of a bust, there can only be so many all stars in the league and you can bet that of the players drafted after Len, at least Noel, McCollum, Adams, Giannis, and Gobert will have a shot at an All Star appearance in their career.

[LukasBMW]

If you definition of a bust is a player that underachieves relative to the standards set for his draft position and has multiple players drafted after them with more successful careers, then yeah I'd call him a bust. Obviously he has time to turn it around, and it's not like he's on his way out of the league or anything, but at this point in his career he has not been what you'd expect from the 5th overall pick.

I don't think the players drafted after him not being All Stars only 3 years after the draft makes him any less of a bust, there can only be so many all stars in the league and you can bet that of the players drafted after Len, at least Noel, McCollum, Adams, Giannis, and Gobert will have a shot at an All Star appearance in their career.

I see Gobert and McCollum being all stars maybe this year.

Giannis could still become a superstar, or he could be the next Boris Diaw.

Noel and Adams will be solid role players.

Given where Gobert and McCollum went in the draft, I can't cry too hard over it.

[darealjuice]

If you definition of a bust is a player that underachieves relative to the standards set for his draft position and has multiple players drafted after them with more successful careers, then yeah I'd call him a bust. Obviously he has time to turn it around, and it's not like he's on his way out of the league or anything, but at this point in his career he has not been what you'd expect from the 5th overall pick.

I don't think the players drafted after him not being All Stars only 3 years after the draft makes him any less of a bust, there can only be so many all stars in the league and you can bet that of the players drafted after Len, at least Noel, McCollum, Adams, Giannis, and Gobert will have a shot at an All Star appearance in their career.

I see Gobert and McCollum being all stars maybe this year.

Giannis could still become a superstar, or he could be the next Boris Diaw.

Noel and Adams will be solid role players.

Given where Gobert and McCollum went in the draft, I can't cry too hard over it.

Yeah I feel the same about Gobert, McCollum, and Giannis, although I really think Giannis will be a superstar. I do think Noel will get an All Star bid on another team though, he's already a really good defensive player and would shine on a team that gets out and runs and lets him play his natural position instead of playing him out of position to compensate for guys like Jahlil. Adams is a stretch, but I just bring him up because I've seen a lot of improvement from him through his career so far.

[LukasBMW]

Not a bust.

A bust is a high draft pick that fails to live up to expectations while multiple players picked behind him in the draft become all stars.

That draft was historically bad AND there are still ZERO (As in 0.00) all stars from that draft.

The players that COULD still become all stars were passed by many other teams.


A better classification would be DISAPPOINTMENT.

When I saw highlights of Len, I was amazed at how fast and fluid he was for a 7 footer. His face up game taking other bigs off the dribble was great. His size and athleticism combined with his sweet shooting touch made me happy we choose him over McLemore and Noel. I was a BIT concerned that even though Len dominated Noel on the stat sheet in their one college match up, Noel seemed to show more potential with his moves. That said, neither player has consistently impressed me on the pro level.


I really really hope Len gets it together. He looked super bad against Gobert, but that is a tough matchup and everyone has "off" nights. I think everyone here wanted his head after that game. If Len can perform at a double/double level 80% of the time, then he easily is a top backup center and an average starting center even if a few certain match ups expose his weaknesses.

I would add1 this but due to Gary Johnson, I just can't do it, sorry bro.

No worries. I get it. I've actually been disappointed with Gary in the last 2 months. He really seems to have "lost it".

That said, I still think he is worlds better then Trump or Clinton.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

If you definition of a bust is a player that underachieves relative to the standards set for his draft position and has multiple players drafted after them with more successful careers, then yeah I'd call him a bust. Obviously he has time to turn it around, and it's not like he's on his way out of the league or anything, but at this point in his career he has not been what you'd expect from the 5th overall pick.

I don't think the players drafted after him not being All Stars only 3 years after the draft makes him any less of a bust, there can only be so many all stars in the league and you can bet that of the players drafted after Len, at least Noel, McCollum, Adams, Giannis, and Gobert will have a shot at an All Star appearance in their career.

I see Gobert and McCollum being all stars maybe this year.

Giannis could still become a superstar, or he could be the next Boris Diaw.

Noel and Adams will be solid role players.

Given where Gobert and McCollum went in the draft, I can't cry too hard over it.

What bothers me most about Len is his offense - we took him ahead of Adams (I presume) because he showed the ability to step out and hit J's. They both had high block numbers in college.

Adams has proven to be a tremendous defensive center, but has also shown great touch around the basket. Gobert is now hitting free throws at a high clip, and his passing and BBIQ are terrific. Meanwhile, Len is not blocking shots, and Gobert has beasted all over him in two straight matchups. So both Adams and Gobert are better on defense AND OFFENSE. That's what gets me. We whiffed. I'd feel much better about our future with either one of those guys as our center. At this point, I'd take Noel, too, despite his frailty.

Alex has clearly improved from his first season, but over the last two, he really hasn't. Thought he looked better before he sprained his ankle dunking on RoLo season before last. That may have been a Zarko moment.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

No worries. I get it. I've actually been disappointed with Gary in the last 2 months. He really seems to have "lost it".

That said, I still think he is worlds better then Trump or Clinton.

This discussion doesn't belong in this thread, but I wish people would focus on policy rather than ideology or personality. In terms of policy, there's one candidate head, shoulders, torso, and legs above the rest, and it's so obvious that I don't even need to say who it is for you to know who I'm talking about.

[kennydorglas]

Len is 7-foot-1 and shoots 42%. Come on. I don’t know what he does that’s helpful at all. His size and supposed strength doesn’t translate into gameplay. He’s a top-five pick who is entering his fourth season and might not even have starter potential. A guy like Nikola Jokic already looks way better than him.

^ anonymous scout talking about him http://arizonasports.com/story/868120/anonymous-nba-scouts-give-their-take-on-phoenix-suns/

It's just sad, actually. I know Noel screwed us with his medicals... so I guess we only had Len and McLemore to chose.

[LukasBMW]

Len is 7-foot-1 and shoots 42%. Come on. I don’t know what he does that’s helpful at all. His size and supposed strength doesn’t translate into gameplay. He’s a top-five pick who is entering his fourth season and might not even have starter potential. A guy like Nikola Jokic already looks way better than him.

^ anonymous scout talking about him http://arizonasports.com/story/868120/anonymous-nba-scouts-give-their-take-on-phoenix-suns/

It's just sad, actually. I know Noel screwed us with his medicals... so I guess we only had Len and McLemore to chose.

He's not aggressive enough near the rim.

I think of all the Suns, Len and Archie are the most likely to smoke weed which explains their stunted development.

I'm only half joking when I say that I wish Len traded in the bong for a roids needle.

(And if you think that lots of guys in the league don't smoke weed, you are wrong. And if you think that lots of guys in the league don't cycle on PEDs, you are wrong.

PED's will always be an issue given that it costs THOUSANDS for PED's when there are MILLIONS or even BILLIONS (See Lebron) at stake.)

[lilfishi22]

He's a bust in my book.

Like kennydorglas mentioned, we took Len because he supposedly had the right combination of offensive and defensive potential over players who were considered more lacking offensively. The problem is not just that the other bigs (Noel, Adams, Gobert) exhibit between above average to near elite levels of defense, it's also that they've at least shown they hold their own on offense. Len just hasn't shown much of an offensive game outside of the most basic put back and a very inconsistent mid range jumper. It becomes an issue if his offense is no better the big's I've mentioned and when their defense is much better than Len's.

He is still a young player at 23 and bigs generally don't hit their stride much later than you would typically see in guards. That said, I still don't have much hope that he would be more than above average in any facet of his game. His defense right now is not bad but it can definitely be better.

[kennydorglas]

Len is 7-foot-1 and shoots 42%. Come on. I don’t know what he does that’s helpful at all. His size and supposed strength doesn’t translate into gameplay. He’s a top-five pick who is entering his fourth season and might not even have starter potential. A guy like Nikola Jokic already looks way better than him.

^ anonymous scout talking about him http://arizonasports.com/story/868120/anonymous-nba-scouts-give-their-take-on-phoenix-suns/

It's just sad, actually. I know Noel screwed us with his medicals... so I guess we only had Len and McLemore to chose.

He's not aggressive enough near the rim.

I think of all the Suns, Len and Archie are the most likely to smoke weed which explains their stunted development.

I'm only half joking when I say that I wish Len traded in the bong for a roids needle.

(And if you think that lots of guys in the league don't smoke weed, you are wrong. And if you think that lots of guys in the league don't cycle on PEDs, you are wrong.

PED's will always be an issue given that it costs THOUSANDS for PED's when there are MILLIONS or even BILLIONS (See Lebron) at stake.)

LeBron is just smart enough to never get caught. He probably had tons of people to help him out in his early days... generally speaking PED user are always two steps ahead of the 'law'. To get caught u just need to be DUMB AS HELL.

[theSUNalsoRISES]

He's a bust in my book.

Like kennydorglas mentioned, we took Len because he supposedly had the right combination of offensive and defensive potential over players who were considered more lacking offensively. The problem is not just that the other bigs (Noel, Adams, Gobert) exhibit between above average to near elite levels of defense, it's also that they've at least shown they hold their own on offense. Len just hasn't shown much of an offensive game outside of the most basic put back and a very inconsistent mid range jumper. It becomes an issue if his offense is no better the big's I've mentioned and when their defense is much better than Len's.

He is still a young player at 23 and bigs generally don't hit their stride much later than you would typically see in guards. That said, I still don't have much hope that he would be more than above average in any facet of his game. His defense right now is not bad but it can definitely be better.

Lets not go overboard. Len is a bust sure, its a fair point to make.BUT Adams/Noel can hold their own on offense ?? Len is far better on the side of the ball. Noel can handle the ball and put the ball in. Adams is an enigma. Defensively he simply upsets the other player and knows where to stand, but really doesn't do much. (look at adams +/- during the gsw series) I don't see how if Len is a bust than Gobert and Adams are not. ALL have shown promise. I would put Noel a level above, with Gobert and Len in same bubble potential promise to be a top C and Adams nowhere near.

[lilfishi22]

Lets not go overboard. Len is a bust sure, its a fair point to make.BUT Adams/Noel can hold their own on offense ?? Len is far better on the side of the ball. Noel can handle the ball and put the ball in. Adams is an enigma. Defensively he simply upsets the other player and knows where to stand, but really doesn't do much. (look at adams +/- during the gsw series) I don't see how if Len is a bust than Gobert and Adams are not. ALL have shown promise. I would put Noel a level above, with Gobert and Len in same bubble potential promise to be a top C and Adams nowhere near.

Len is far better on offense? He does two things better on offense than the bigs I've mentioned. He's a better FT shooter and there's no debate. He has "better" range from field but he's so inconsistent from there, it's a large part of the reason he's so inefficient on offense.

All three of those bigs I've mentioned have shot well over the 50FG% mark at least once. In Len's best season, he barely grazed the 50% mark and logged two separate 42FG% seasons. Len isn't better than any of them on offense or defense. You can say what you want about Adams but he's consistently been a better and more mobile defender than Len has been. OKC is probably my second favorite team behind the Suns and I've probably watched 50-60 of their games over the past two seasons; Adams is a solid defender. You said it perfectly, he upsets players (gets them off their rhythm) and knows where to stand (great positioning), that's big man defense.

I also don't know how you can say Len and Gobert are in the same bubble of potential as a top C. Gobert is a LEGIT DPOY candidate next season. Len isn't in the top 10 in any measurable category.

[kennydorglas]

Just picked up some stats about the 5 Centers in the 2013 draft.


scoring at the rim

Noel 5.1 att/g 69.7%
Adams 4.1 att/g 62.9%
Gobert 5.1att/g 61%
Len 3.8 att/g 55.3%

scoring in the paint

Adams 1att/g 57.8%
Noel 1.9att/g 29.9%
Len 1.6 att/g 27.4%
Gobert 0.6att/g 20%

mid range

Len 2.5att/g 32.6%
Noel 1.7att/g 24.3%
Adams&Gobert dont even try it

offensive ROLL MAN

Adams 119 FGA 63% FG
Noel 115 FGA 53% FG
Len 80 FGA 43.8% FG
Gobert 66 FGA 60.6% FG

post up

Len 165 FGA 35.2% FG
Noel 60 FGA 40% FG
Adams 30 FGA 53.3% FG
Gobert 13 FGA 38.5% FG

adjusted rebound chance %

Gobert 67.7%
Len 65.1%
Adams 61.4%¨
Noel 60.5%

points saved/g (rim protection)

Gobert 1.79
Noel 0.83
Len 0.08
Adams -0.55

DRPM

Gobert +3.89
Adams +2.77
Noel +2.29
Len +1.6

ORPM

Adams -0.42
Gobert -1.55
Len -3.37
Noel -3.48


You can easily see the difference between them.
Len trying to work in the post and his poor touch around the rim is the real killer here.
Great rebounder, just meh in anything else.

[theSUNalsoRISES]

Lets not go overboard. Len is a bust sure, its a fair point to make.BUT Adams/Noel can hold their own on offense ?? Len is far better on the side of the ball. Noel can handle the ball and put the ball in. Adams is an enigma. Defensively he simply upsets the other player and knows where to stand, but really doesn't do much. (look at adams +/- during the gsw series) I don't see how if Len is a bust than Gobert and Adams are not. ALL have shown promise. I would put Noel a level above, with Gobert and Len in same bubble potential promise to be a top C and Adams nowhere near.

Len is far better on offense? He does two things better on offense than the bigs I've mentioned. He's a better FT shooter and there's no debate. He has "better" range from field but he's so inconsistent from there, it's a large part of the reason he's so inefficient on offense.

All three of those bigs I've mentioned have shot well over the 50FG% mark at least once. In Len's best season, he barely grazed the 50% mark and logged two separate 42FG% seasons. Len isn't better than any of them on offense or defense. You can say what you want about Adams but he's consistently been a better and more mobile defender than Len has been. OKC is probably my second favorite team behind the Suns and I've probably watched 50-60 of their games over the past two seasons; Adams is a solid defender. You said it perfectly, he upsets players (gets them off their rhythm) and knows where to stand (great positioning), that's big man defense.

I also don't know how you can say Len and Gobert are in the same bubble of potential as a top C. Gobert is a LEGIT DPOY candidate next season. Len isn't in the top 10 in any measurable category.

A legit DPOY next season...when the season hasn't started...

You have watched 50-60 OKC games..your a huge fan, no one is a bigger fan than you. You sound like Trump. Big man defence is stoping the guy, not getting into fights and standing there while the guy shots over you and gets it in.

My point is simple - you can bag Len. but don't put in these other players in an elite status to prove you point. They aren't All stars either. Potentially maybe Gobert will be DPOY but the same can be said about Len's potential. this place is so ridiculous sometimes in hyperbole. Len can be a bust without every other center in this draft being the next big thing.

[darealjuice]

Lets not go overboard. Len is a bust sure, its a fair point to make.BUT Adams/Noel can hold their own on offense ?? Len is far better on the side of the ball. Noel can handle the ball and put the ball in. Adams is an enigma. Defensively he simply upsets the other player and knows where to stand, but really doesn't do much. (look at adams +/- during the gsw series) I don't see how if Len is a bust than Gobert and Adams are not. ALL have shown promise. I would put Noel a level above, with Gobert and Len in same bubble potential promise to be a top C and Adams nowhere near.

Len is far better on offense? He does two things better on offense than the bigs I've mentioned. He's a better FT shooter and there's no debate. He has "better" range from field but he's so inconsistent from there, it's a large part of the reason he's so inefficient on offense.

All three of those bigs I've mentioned have shot well over the 50FG% mark at least once. In Len's best season, he barely grazed the 50% mark and logged two separate 42FG% seasons. Len isn't better than any of them on offense or defense. You can say what you want about Adams but he's consistently been a better and more mobile defender than Len has been. OKC is probably my second favorite team behind the Suns and I've probably watched 50-60 of their games over the past two seasons; Adams is a solid defender. You said it perfectly, he upsets players (gets them off their rhythm) and knows where to stand (great positioning), that's big man defense.

I also don't know how you can say Len and Gobert are in the same bubble of potential as a top C. Gobert is a LEGIT DPOY candidate next season. Len isn't in the top 10 in any measurable category.

A legit DPOY next season...when the season hasn't started...

You have watched 50-60 OKC games..your a huge fan, no one is a bigger fan than you. You sound like Trump. Big man defence is stoping the guy, not getting into fights and standing there while the guy shots over you and gets it in.

My point is simple - you can bag Len. but don't put in these other players in an elite status to prove you point. They aren't All stars either. Potentially maybe Gobert will be DPOY but the same can be said about Len's potential. this place is so ridiculous sometimes in hyperbole. Len can be a bust without every other center in this draft being the next big thing.

This post is the equivalent of covering your ears and shouting "lalala I can't hear you" when you're have an argument with someone lol. He never said any of those guys were elite, just that they're at least a tier above Len in both the defensive and offensive aspect of the game, which is absolutely true. Len's offensive game is crap, his post moves is the equivalent to a baby giraffe awkwardly learning to walk, his jump shot is inconsistent because the guy feels the need to fade back on his shot despite being the tallest guy on the court, his touch around the rim is the worst of all of them, and the stats back it up completely. You have your Suns shades on if you think that Len has the same potential as Gobert for DPOY, because it's not even close, he's literally the worst defender out of Gobert, Noel, and Adams by a considerable margin.

[lilfishi22]

A legit DPOY next season...when the season hasn't started...

I didn't say he will be DPOY next season. I said, if you read my post correctly, a legit DPOY candidate. In the recent GM Survey, he was voted #2, behind DeAndre Jordan by GM's around the league as the best interior defender. Do a quick Google search and you'll see Gobert is being seriously talked about as a potential DPOY calibre player.

You have watched 50-60 OKC games..your a huge fan, no one is a bigger fan than you. You sound like Trump. Big man defence is stoping the guy, not getting into fights and standing there while the guy shots over you and gets it in.

My only point here is that I have watched plenty of Steven Adams and know how well he plays defense. I never said I'm OKC's biggest fan so don't put your words in my post. "Standing there while the guy shots over you and gets it in" ? What on Earth are you talking about?

Opponent FG% inside the Restricted area
Adams - 56.1%
Gobert - 55.1%
Len - 61.6%
Noel - 60%

Opponent FG% from within 5ft
Adams - 54.5%
Gobert - 53.3%
Len - 59.1%
Noel - 57.9%

My point is simple - you can bag Len. but don't put in these other players in an elite status to prove you point. They aren't All stars either. Potentially maybe Gobert will be DPOY but the same can be said about Len's potential. this place is so ridiculous sometimes in hyperbole. Len can be a bust without every other center in this draft being the next big thing.

I'm not bagging Len because I hate the guy. I think he plays hard. I think he puts in the work in training. I just don't think the talent is there. I put Gobert in elite status on defense, not Adams, not Noel and certainly not Len.

If you think Len is as close to DPOY as Gobert then I don't think we can continue this discussion.

[dremill24]

Lets not go overboard. Len is a bust sure, its a fair point to make.BUT Adams/Noel can hold their own on offense ?? Len is far better on the side of the ball. Noel can handle the ball and put the ball in. Adams is an enigma. Defensively he simply upsets the other player and knows where to stand, but really doesn't do much. (look at adams +/- during the gsw series) I don't see how if Len is a bust than Gobert and Adams are not. ALL have shown promise. I would put Noel a level above, with Gobert and Len in same bubble potential promise to be a top C and Adams nowhere near.

Len is far better on offense? He does two things better on offense than the bigs I've mentioned. He's a better FT shooter and there's no debate. He has "better" range from field but he's so inconsistent from there, it's a large part of the reason he's so inefficient on offense.

All three of those bigs I've mentioned have shot well over the 50FG% mark at least once. In Len's best season, he barely grazed the 50% mark and logged two separate 42FG% seasons. Len isn't better than any of them on offense or defense. You can say what you want about Adams but he's consistently been a better and more mobile defender than Len has been. OKC is probably my second favorite team behind the Suns and I've probably watched 50-60 of their games over the past two seasons; Adams is a solid defender. You said it perfectly, he upsets players (gets them off their rhythm) and knows where to stand (great positioning), that's big man defense.

I also don't know how you can say Len and Gobert are in the same bubble of potential as a top C. Gobert is a LEGIT DPOY candidate next season. Len isn't in the top 10 in any measurable category.

A legit DPOY next season...when the season hasn't started...

You have watched 50-60 OKC games..your a huge fan, no one is a bigger fan than you. You sound like Trump. Big man defence is stoping the guy, not getting into fights and standing there while the guy shots over you and gets it in.

My point is simple - you can bag Len. but don't put in these other players in an elite status to prove you point. They aren't All stars either. Potentially maybe Gobert will be DPOY but the same can be said about Len's potential. this place is so ridiculous sometimes in hyperbole. Len can be a bust without every other center in this draft being the next big thing.

All else aside, youre kidding yourself if you dont think Gobert is one of the top defensive centers in the league. Hes finished in 7th and 5th in DPoY voting the last 2 years too, if you want some objective evidence.