If winning championships is so important for GOAT status...why do some people include Wilt in the conversation?

[cupcakesnake]

Of topic: Wilt Chamberlain and Otto Porter must be related. They have the exact same head and face.

Back in the late 80s and 90s any NBA player that isn't sure who their biological dad is, is probably the son of Wilt Chamberlain. Considering his name is Otto Porter Jr. I think we have to assume that Otto Porter Sr. was Wilt Chamberlain's alter ego persona.

[Styrian]

The 1960s Celtics were an aberration. They had by far the most talent in an 8 team league with no salary cap. Switch Wilt and Russell's teams and Wilt be talked about as GOAT and Russell wouldn't be revered as much as he is.

Do you know how many times were Celtics above average offensive team(4th or better) with Russell in an 8 team league? Zero times. You'd expect team so talented could be at least above average on offense. Reality is they weren't so talented(players like Cousy are overrated), Russell just had insane impact defensively which made Celtics basically twice as better on defense than any other team.

Bill Russell said he didn't have better teammates(than Wilt), he made them better. And Wilt himself talked about that scenario and said they Celtics would be worse with him instead(https://youtu.be/46RutBTe-as?t=3m42s).

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Nobody has come close to being as statistically dominat as Wilt since Wilt. But 1960s basketball was more different from 1980s basketball than 1980s basketball is from 2017 basketball. I don't think 1960s basketball had as many good athletes and the help defense barely existed except for centers helping their teamates in the paint. I still have to leave Wilt in contention for GOAT even though I think the level of competition has gotten better and even though the Cetics usually beat Wilt's teams.

To me the competition is Jordan vs the best center.
Shaq, Wilt, Russel, Kareem, and Hakeem are all in contention for being the best center.
I have Magic, Bird and LeBron below Jordan and I can't decide how to compare the centers to the non-centers.

[cupcakesnake]

Incredible how many experts on 60s basketball there are in this thread! I myself have only seen some grainy old videos of Bill Russell dunking from the foul line and Wilt scoring at will with finger rolls from 10 feet out. Truly blessed to surrounded by so many experts who must have been there and watched the games or have access to unlimited 60s game tape, and can share their beautiful knowledge with the rest of us.

[Ontario]

It depends on what you mean by GOAT? Are you asking who had the best professional career or are you asking who was the best basketball player?

If you are asking about the greatest player then it seems pretty silly to leave Wilt out of the conversation.

[watch1958]

Incredible how many experts on 60s basketball there are in this thread! I myself have only seen some grainy old videos of Bill Russell dunking from the foul line and Wilt scoring at will with finger rolls from 10 feet out. Truly blessed to surrounded by so many experts who must have been there and watched the games or have access to unlimited 60s game tape, and can share their beautiful knowledge with the rest of us.

Sadly, I am old enough to have watched Chamberlin and Russell and Kareem when he was still in college. I remember the discussions 50 and 40 years ago on this topic, and I don't know that my opinion on Wilt is any different than it was then.

He could easily have been the greatest but didn't care that much at the time.

[mixerball]

for me wilt is far away from goat even if he was an out of this world body

goat has to have team succes. simple as that.


but yeah, we all know this is another "lebron is goat" thread

[leoshes]

Most have never seen him play. Thats why he is being undervalued. Only those that are over 45/50 have the right to judge him. & there are not to many of those here. Most never even seen Jordan play.

[J Shuttlesworth]

There should be emphasis on how a player performs, not just whether or not they won a ring. I think one of the biggest knocks on Wilt is how his FT shooting ended up being a problem in the playoffs.

For me, being a great player in the playoffs/finals is what makes legacies. It wasn't just MJ winning 6 rings that makes him the GOAT... Averaging 40 ppg for a finals series is ridiculous, win or lose.

One of the best examples of great performances in a loss is 2015 finals by LeBron. I know people make a lot of Kobe/LeBron comparisons, but do people actually consider Kobe's first ring to be more valuable for a resume than LeBron's 2015 finals performance? I doubt it. I know people tend to just count rings, but if you look at the circumstances of those two finals, it's pretty obvious who was greater.

[J Shuttlesworth]

There should be emphasis on how a player performs, not just whether or not they won a ring. I think one of the biggest knocks on Wilt is how his FT shooting ended up being a problem in the playoffs.

For me, being a great player in the playoffs/finals is what makes legacies. It wasn't just MJ winning 6 rings that makes him the GOAT... Averaging 40 ppg for a finals series is ridiculous, win or lose.

One of the best examples of great performances in a loss is 2015 finals by LeBron. I know people make a lot of Kobe/LeBron comparisons, but do people actually consider Kobe's first ring to be more valuable for a resume than LeBron's 2015 finals performance? I doubt it. I know people tend to just count rings, but if you look at the circumstances of those two finals, it's pretty obvious who was greater.

[SkyHookFTW]

To really remember Wilt as a player you probably have to around 60. I saw him play many times in person, both in Philly and in L.A. To this day I never saw anyone like him on the court. He is not my GOAT, but he is in the conversation.

Also, the take about pace is ridiculous. Everyone in his day played the same pace. Only Wilt has those stats. People seem to forget that. Wilt really was that good.

IMHO there are four GOAT candidates: MJ, Wilt, Kareem, and Russell. I believe LeBron will soon join that list.

[G35]

Bill Russell

I rarely hear Wilt being in the convo for being the GOAT tbh

Winning rings is the biggest factor in GOAT status. It is what will be remembered the longest. The stat checkers will always disagree because of a few factors:

1 - context
2 - era differences

The only thing that is consistent across eras is winning titles. It pisses people off because their favorite player cannot "stat" their way into the GOAT conversation......

[LakersLegacy]

It's a combination of championships and performance. He has both.

We all decide on the weight of the combination of championships and performance when we rank all time players

I personally have a difficult time ranking players I wasn't alive to see play. Ive watched some classic Wilt games but I really just estimate how good he was from that small sample size. I'm no Wilt expert.

[RingsDontLie]

That said, GOAT conversation shouldn't put much value on number of rings.

#staywoke

Then how come karl malone and barkley are not on anyone's top ten list all time?

[StraightShooter]

Unfortunately for Wilt he was facing a super team for most of his career.

[Rastas]

Wilt is my GOAT for the simple fact he averaged around 40pts and 25rebs per game over 7 straight seasons whilst playing almost every minute of every game - thats just some Superman stat there - no body else comes even remotely close.

[deflated]

That said, GOAT conversation shouldn't put much value on number of rings.

#staywoke

Then how come karl malone and barkley are not on anyone's top ten list all time?

Does anyone think either Barkley or Malone are top 10 either way? Whether you care about rings or not neither one of them is even close, 4th best PF all time ain't going to be top ten.

[Johnlac1]

To really remember Wilt as a player you probably have to around 60. I saw him play many times in person, both in Philly and in L.A. To this day I never saw anyone like him on the court. He is not my GOAT, but he is in the conversation.

Also, the take about pace is ridiculous. Everyone in his day played the same pace. Only Wilt has those stats. People seem to forget that. Wilt really was that good.

IMHO there are four GOAT candidates: MJ, Wilt, Kareem, and Russell. I believe LeBron will soon join that list.

I saw Wilt on NBC tv in the early sixties. But I had just started watching and playing basketball. All the pro players looked superhuman. I was not able to make good judgements.
It was only until later in the sixties when ABC started broadcasting games that I saw Wilt again. That was the year they beat the Celtics for the title.
Wilt looked like the most dominating player in the game at the time....because he was. The Celtics still had a tremendous team, but the Sixers had overtaken them as the best team in the league, and the Knicks were gaining as well. The Lakers just couldn't seem to get over the hump.
If Cunningham hadn't broken his wrist against the Knicks in the opening round of the "68 playoffs, I believe the Sixers would have again cruised to the title. Billy C might have been the best sf in the league by that time with Barry leaving for the ABA and Baylor declining.
But that season epitomizes the bad luck that would pursue Chamberlain throughout his career.
Other key Sixers were playing hurt including Wilt who was playing with a strained left thigh, a bad toe, and then tore his calf muscle.
Alex Hannum admitted the Sixer team in the playoffs was a shadow of the midseason team. So they blew a 3-1 lead against the Celts and lost by four pts. in the seventh game with Wilt taking a lot of the blame despite all the injuries.
Then the next year as a Laker the Celtics get two key last second/minute baskets in the finals to beat the Lakers. If Sam Jones doesn't make a heave from the top of the key at the buzzer in game four which rattled in (you can see it on YouTube), the Lakers win in five games. Then there's Don Nelson's shot which bounced ten feet in the air in the last minute of the seventh game which went in, and the Lakers lose by two pts. And that's the game where Wilt twists his knee, tries to play on it but can't, gets it worked on, wants to come back into the game with three or four minutes remaining, but gets turned down by his idiot coach. The Lakers lose.
Then the next year in the Knicks-Lakers finals just before Jerry West hits his famous beyond half court shot to tie the game Dave DeBusschere hits a tough jump shot with a man on him to put the Knicks ahead by two. If he misses the shot or gets fouled and only makes one free throw, the Lakers win on West's shot and win the series in six games.
None of those things happened. That's three of the most unbelievable, unlucky endings for one of Wilt's teams that all happened in three consecutive years. His teams very well could have won titles those three years giving him four in a row and five for his career. That's just three years out of a 14 year career. There were five other seasons where bad luck in the form of injuries and last second plays cost Wilt chances at titles.
Show me another player who has had that kind of bad luck.
I'll repeat, played again Wilt would have won five or six titles easily....maybe more. The two titles he won his teams won decisively.
It was a fluke he only won two.

[Patches Perry]

People use rings very selectively. Russell has almost twice as many as the next best candidate, but he rarely gets GOAT considerations either, because context matters. But make no mistake, context only matters when the rings don't add up the way you want them to. If your guy is the guy with less rings, that's usually when you hear about the teammates, era, competition, etc. Things that DO matter, but you only hear about them when your guy has less rings than the guy being compared to.

Scottie Pippen is the greatest SF of all-time if rings are all that matter. He won twice as many as Bird and LeBron.

[TheBobster]

I saw Wilt play in the final years of his career when he was a defense/rebounding specialist - but he could still score when he felt the need.

All I can say is that individually he was clearly the most dominant player ever - nobody can touch his statistical accomplishments. In addition, he was part of two of the greatest championship teams in NBA history - the 1967 Sixers and the 1972 Lakers.

48.5 minutes a game for a season. 50.1 points a game for a season. 55 rebounds in a game. 100 points in a game. Over 20 points, rebounds and assists in the same game. 33 straight wins. His accomplishments are dismissed because if you didn't see him play you just can't process them.