RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #29

[scrabbarista]

29. John Havlicek

30. Elgin Baylor

I. Among remaining players, these two are 3rd and 4th, respectively, in all-time postseason production (points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks). (Pippen is first, Tony Parker is second.) This is in spite of the fact that when they played there were fewer rounds and fewer games per round. Simply put, these are the two best (career) postseason performers remaining - especially when we consider that for much of their careers (all of Baylor's), blocks and steals were not even recorded.

II. These two are 1st and 2nd among remaining players when it comes to honors and awards received. Elgin Baylor was a Top 5 MVP candidate 7 times - compare that to 1 for Pippen and 2 for Curry. Havlicek, meanwhile, made 19 All-NBA and All-Defensive teams.

III. Havlicek was the best player on at least 1.5 championship teams (I've seen one RGMer in these threads say "as many as 4" - he was an 8-time champion). [Pippen had 0, and as someone who saw his whole prime, I don't believe he was the caliber of player who could have ever been the best player on a title team.] Only Curry, Cowens, and Isiah Thomas are left to match him, but consider the career production of Hondo vs. Curry:

RS:
Hondo = 41,109
Curry = 20,656

PS:
Hondo = 5,862
Curry = 2,989

I have Baylor over Hondo because of Baylor's statistical profile (being among the Top 5 yearly in multiple important statistical categories) and general dominance (four times he finished higher in MVP voting than Hondo ever did).

[scrabbarista]

1st Vote: Curry
Alt: Hondo

I'll give the edge to Hondo over Pip for winning a chip w/o Russell. Too close to call.

Two chips.

[penbeast0]

1st Vote: Curry
Alt: Hondo

I'll give the edge to Hondo over Pip for winning a chip w/o Russell. Too close to call.

Two chips.

Although Cowens was generally considered the primary (higher MVP shares, etc.) on those teams and Havlicek still the secondary.

[penbeast0]

Curious - Do you not feel that if you swap Drexler in for Pippen that you still get 6 rings? Or do you feel that Pippen swapped for Drexler yields more? I really wrestle with the rings conversation with Pippen.

Those Bulls teams won (like all dynasties) with a thin margin at times and a bit of luck. Swapping Drexler for Pippen would mean swapping out a bit of size and defense for more scoring . . . but with Jordan demanding primacy, I don't think the extra scoring would matter as much (even if Drexler actually did get the touches to score more than Pippen).

On the other hand, not sure that the Portland teams wouldn't be as good or better with Pippen's extras and a bit less scoring than Drexler provided. They had a few scorers to take up the slack too.

Certainly wouldn't say either analysis is deep or definitive, more just eye test and a general feeling that it's easier to replace up to 5 points of scoring from your star than to develop a great defensive identity which tends to also take its lead from the star's effort and abilities.

[pandrade83]

When I was really digging into this, I was really impressed by Pippen in the 1st two title runs - especially in closeout games. 3rd one was fine - nothing noteworthy either way.

I walked away from his playoff performance in those last 3 title runs feeling a bit underwhelmed and definitely felt like I'd rather have Drexler in the clutch. When rings start to enter the conversation,I want to see proof that the guy with the rings was actually the better playoff performer.

So, I look at their 10 year prime playoff stats:

Drexler: 22-7-7/2 stl/1 block/54% TS
Pippen: 19-8-6/2 stl/1 block/52% TS

And performance in closeout/elimination games:

Drexler: 22/7/6/2 steal/1 block/3.1 TO @ 54% TS
Pippen: 19/9/5/2 steal/1 block/3.3 TO @ 50.3% TS

And I feel perfectly fine with Drexler. He was actually a pretty good defender based on the data we do have.

I think it's reasonable to pick Pippen - he's the perfect 2nd banana, and the defense is obviously outstanding. As we delve deeper into the Pippen discussion, I don't want us to be lured in by the 6 rings.

[andrewww]

When I was really digging into this, I was really impressed by Pippen in the 1st two title runs - especially in closeout games. 3rd one was fine - nothing noteworthy either way.

I walked away from his playoff performance in those last 3 title runs feeling a bit underwhelmed and definitely felt like I'd rather have Drexler in the clutch. When rings start to enter the conversation,I want to see proof that the guy with the rings was actually the better playoff performer.

So, I look at their 10 year prime playoff stats:

Drexler: 22-7-7/2 stl/1 block/54% TS
Pippen: 19-8-6/2 stl/1 block/52% TS

And performance in closeout/elimination games:

Drexler: 22/7/6/2 steal/1 block/3.1 TO @ 54% TS
Pippen: 19/9/5/2 steal/1 block/3.3 TO @ 50.3% TS

And I feel perfectly fine with Drexler. He was actually a pretty good defender based on the data we do have.

I think it's reasonable to pick Pippen - he's the perfect 2nd banana, and the defense is obviously outstanding. As we delve deeper into the Pippen discussion, I don't want us to be lured in by the 6 rings.

I would also lump Pippen into the class of players like The Glove or Kidd. Defense-first players who were also solid contributors offensively of course.

[Lou Fan]

Contenders for this spot: Kidd, Payton, Curry, Drexler, Pippen, Baylor, Gilmore, Havlicek

Kidd: I'm really considering him here because of drza's post. He's an elite defender and rebounder at his position and obviously an ATG player/passer on the fastbreak. He took the Nets to back to back Finals while leading the team in points, assists, and steals. The big drawback for Kidd is his lack of a pull up jumper. He just never learned how to score off the dribble, except layups/dunks, and that really hurt his teams in the halfcourt. 87% of his 3s were assisted on which clearly shows he wasn't creating his own jumpers. I do value his championship as a valuable starter on the Mavs. He's my next guard after Curry.

Payton: I can't put him here quite yet because of playoff fails particularly the Denver series, but he is really underrated and deserves a mention.

Baylor: Same as Payton. His low efficiency and him taking shots from West docks him even more. 0 rings in a league with 8 teams is hard to get over especially since he was 0-8 in finals.

Drexler: One of the best wings of his time and his 5 All-NBAs sell him short. He led two teams to the finals and was option 1b on the second Rockets championship team. His high points totals combined with low usage rates is impressive. He was pretty efficient as a volume scorer with a career 55 ts%. However, I can't understand putting him over Curry unless you REALLY value longevity.

Pippen: He was the perfect Robin. He is one of the greatest if not the greatest wing defender ever and a great rebounder as well. He was one of the original point forwards his 8 assists per 100 possessions for his career is extremely impressive. He was just the perfect compliment to Michael Jordan. His athleticism allowed him to physically dominate matchups and get some pretty awesome posterizers. I have no doubt he could have been a good number 1 on a team (His Portland teams were good and his one year as the man on the Bulls was great) but I'm not sure if he could win one as the man. This might be a little too early for the greatest number 2 of all time but if not now very soon.

Havlicek: He's just a worse version of Pippen imo.

Gilmore: Impressive prime but it feels too early for him but I could change my mind if persuaded tbh I don't know much about him.

Steph Curry is the choice for me here because his 3 year peak 2015-now has been unbelievable. He started a dynasty won multiple MVPs and his impact stats are ridiculous. Top 5 peak all time with 5 seasons of prime that have all been very good. His 2016 season was off the charts amazing and he should have won the ring without the bogus draymond suspension and all the injuries they had including the one to Curry's knee. His last 3 seasons have gone ring, 73 wins, ring. His gravity on the court is ATG. His gravity is probably second to only Shaq and Wilt. I value peak over longevity. My reasoning is would you rather have a guy who was the capability to be an MVP/top5 player in the league and be the best player on champ for 5 years (ie Curry) or someone who can lead you to the playoffs every year and probably can't lead a team to the finals for 12 years (ie someone like Bob Cousy). He is the offensive GOAT he should NOT slip any further no matter how much you value longevity.
Example of Gravity:

1st Vote: Curry
2nd Vote: Pippen

[dhsilv2]

Curious - Do you not feel that if you swap Drexler in for Pippen that you still get 6 rings? Or do you feel that Pippen swapped for Drexler yields more? I really wrestle with the rings conversation with Pippen.

Those Bulls teams won (like all dynasties) with a thin margin at times and a bit of luck. Swapping Drexler for Pippen would mean swapping out a bit of size and defense for more scoring . . . but with Jordan demanding primacy, I don't think the extra scoring would matter as much (even if Drexler actually did get the touches to score more than Pippen).

On the other hand, not sure that the Portland teams wouldn't be as good or better with Pippen's extras and a bit less scoring than Drexler provided. They had a few scorers to take up the slack too.

Certainly wouldn't say either analysis is deep or definitive, more just eye test and a general feeling that it's easier to replace up to 5 points of scoring from your star than to develop a great defensive identity which tends to also take its lead from the star's effort and abilities.

Pippen was also a great (ok extremely good) playmaker. That wasn't a needed skill on the blazers as Drexler had pretty solid point guards. Meanwhile the bulls were able during the second 3 peat to basically run a second shooting guard so the bulls could play bigger outside. Pippen is underrated as a building block imo due to that.

[scrabbarista]

1st Vote: Curry
Alt: Hondo

I'll give the edge to Hondo over Pip for winning a chip w/o Russell. Too close to call.

Two chips.

Although Cowens was generally considered the primary (higher MVP shares, etc.) on those teams and Havlicek still the secondary.

True, but I think Havlicek was the primary on 1.5 teams with Russell.

[Joao Saraiva]

1st vote Steph Curry

Longevity is not high but his peak and prime justify the spot.

He's the best shooter ever, and we're not talking about a guy who is running trough screens or taking advantage of his teammates drive and kick. This guy comes off the dribble and puts the ball in the basket from anywhere on the court.

His scoring ability is really unique, and I feel he deserves to be in at this point.

Steph is also a good playmaker, rebounder for his position and he is OK on defense considering his size and strenght (Oviously can't be fantastic but effort is there).

Don't think I need to justify this a lot longer, since everybody has been watching Steph nowadays.

2nd vote Scottie Pippen

[dhsilv2]

Guards – Curry, Cousy, Thomas, and Frazier
Shoot Guard – Sam Jones, Iverson, Gervin
Small Forwards – Pippen, Baylor, Havlicek, Barry
Power Forwards – McHale
Center – Reed

Above has been my running list. I'm feeling bad for not having Drexler here, but he's a bit behind for me. I also feel Cowens needs to be here, but I'd love to hear more discussion on him.

For me right now I'm looking at 4 people. Pippen, Baylor, Havlicek, and Curry. That to me is the top tier left and thankfully lets me take more time before I think about Reed, Barry, Cowens (he has to be in this mix), and then likely Frazier and Gervin. I'm lowering Jones in my mind and cousy has to show up somewhere around this group. He just has too many awards and accolades to slip outside of the top 50.

Baylor - This is an odd one for me. I feel like West could fit right in today despite his lack of ever seeing a weight room. Freakishly long arms and a deadly jumper. Oddly enough the more athletic on paper Baylor is a guy I'm not as confident in. If I think west is fairly judges, how do a reconcile Baylor this high if he wasn't able to win a single title with West? Anyone have a 62 finals recap that would sway me? Game 7 is a monster stat line, but at the same time doesn't look great either. 846 regular season games over 14 years is blowing me away and making me think Curry is way out of line here either. For me all these accolaids are so overly inflated because of the size of the NBA and possibly being a laker (I am firm believer historically being on those two teams inflates ratings so I am trying to be aware of that when I look at other rankings as a reference as well).

Hondo - Hondo is hard as well. I just haven't seen enough of him so that's an issue. The other issue is judging his defense relative to the era to tell if it was really THAT good and I think it has to be THAT good for me to justify him here. 1270 games so longevity is strongly in his favor. I'll take the 8x8 all nba profile over someone with 10. I don't value finals MVPs but I will accept the feeling he was reasonably the best player on a title team. I'm struggling with his PER, 70's PERs were a bit low imo, but 3 20 seasons again makes me ask how great a defender was he as again that's what I need to be convinced over to move him up.

Pippen - To me Pippen is the biggest what if of a guy who didn't really have an injury or drug issue (worth pointing out I think he played hurt in 97 and 98 and that likely cost us a lot of great pippen years after he left the bulls). He's the one guy I look at as a point forward and I think it was better to have him and a big combo guard or shoot first smaller guard then having a traditional point guard. He was great in the role and it let the bulls add in a specialist instead of a generalist at the 1 spot. His defense just never will be talked about enough. He was strong enough, long as hell, athletic as they come and had exceptional decision making and heart on the defensive end. Offensively, Pippen I think could have been a better scorer had he played without MJ, but we didn't get a chance to see that. I think others are wrong in that Pippen couldn't have won as the best player on a team, but it would have had to be a team with more star power than most. That said Pippen with any great scoring wing or center is a duo that could contend. I remain in a weird place with Ewing is in and I think Pippen was a better player but Ewing is in, we've just way over done the 90's guy and we can't add another one.

Steph Curry - 574 games played. That is NOTHING! Curry ranks 130th all time in winshare between Dale Ellis and Calvin Murphy. Rashard Lewis is 104 on the list btw. He is 65th all time in basketball reference's hall of fame probability. He's at his peak and doesn't have any decline years on him, yet his career PER is only 20th. If he never plays another game how do I explain ranking this guy 29th all time?

Vote - Curry. I fear recency bias. I fear I should watch more tape of a few others here, but nobody who was ever close to this great is already in. I think in 2 years we might be talking about Curry in the top 20, but I just can't see ever not thinking about him in the top 30, even if a bus hits him tomorrow. I really do value longevity, but his last 3 years were so good I think he gets a pass, and it isn't like this is top 25.

Alt - Hondo. I'm not sure this one holds for next round, but the 70's are just being ignored and we gotta fill in a bit. The credentials are there, and 8 rings is 8 rings. I still don't feel strong enough about his defense.

HM Pippen. He's coming soon!

[Joao Saraiva]

When I was really digging into this, I was really impressed by Pippen in the 1st two title runs - especially in closeout games. 3rd one was fine - nothing noteworthy either way.

I walked away from his playoff performance in those last 3 title runs feeling a bit underwhelmed and definitely felt like I'd rather have Drexler in the clutch. When rings start to enter the conversation,I want to see proof that the guy with the rings was actually the better playoff performer.

So, I look at their 10 year prime playoff stats:

Drexler: 22-7-7/2 stl/1 block/54% TS
Pippen: 19-8-6/2 stl/1 block/52% TS

And performance in closeout/elimination games:

Drexler: 22/7/6/2 steal/1 block/3.1 TO @ 54% TS
Pippen: 19/9/5/2 steal/1 block/3.3 TO @ 50.3% TS

And I feel perfectly fine with Drexler. He was actually a pretty good defender based on the data we do have.

I think it's reasonable to pick Pippen - he's the perfect 2nd banana, and the defense is obviously outstanding. As we delve deeper into the Pippen discussion, I don't want us to be lured in by the 6 rings.

I actually feel like defense was a major major key for the Bulls success in their 2nd 3peat. And Pippen was a big part of that.

They were able to keep great teams to low scoring games. The finals vs Utah are a great example of that (both of them). And Pippen was definitely a big factor in those situations. But of course, also MJ, Rodman and Ron Harper played their part tremendously.

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: Steph Curry

Refraining from an alt until I know more. I'll post briefly on Curry before talking about the guys I'm thinking about after him.

So, Curry. As I've said, it's difficult to place him because his career peak is so sharp at this point, and so unique we aren't sure how well we can place it. But he's something very special.

I think that people might have overrated Curry had he led the Warriors to a title in '15-16, but that they definitely underrate him after the loss, and I think that's still the case after the rebound chip of '16-17. Curry had the GOAT regular season by many metrics, and then he didn't play as well in the playoffs. That's a reason to knock the season down to GOAT contention, but a player is more than just the sum of his seasons. The level of play Curry achieved in the '15-16 RS should only be suspect to the degree we can justify arguing that components of his game don't translate as well to the playoffs.

Moving on, guys on my mind right now:

Artis Gilmore - I'm lower on him than I used to be because I've come to believe that he really was too hesitant and cautious to reach his otherwise potential, but I still believe: 1) His body was amazing, possibly a top 5 all-time physical talent, and the main debate is whether it was a given that his body would lose its explosiveness earlier than typical 2) His cautious instincts allowed him to adopt an extremely efficient game after his body slowed down, and that almost certainly preserve his offensive impact more than the approaches other big men typically used. So we're talking about a big man who peaked as dominant on both ends, and who had a fantastic longevity with a more lean game than most.

Leaning toward him at the moment.

Reggie Miller - basically the off-guard equivalent of Gilmore. The bad news is that he never peaked like an A-list superstar. The good news is that in addition to having a highly portable game, Miller's game would only be more valuable today.

Scottie Pippen - it's actually weird to me that Pippen hasn't already been my vote. My opinion of him hasn't really dropped and yet I find myself more convinced by more and more guys. I wouldn't object to him going in right after Curry, but I also think I'd be hard-pressed to fight hard for him over a bunch of other guys.

John Havlicek - When I talk about Pippen in these contexts I'm also thinking of Hondo. Very much the same type of player, with Hondo having a better attitude and longevity, but a weaker prime impact. I'd lean toward Pippen over him right now, but it's pretty debatable.

Rick Barry - I also tend to feel like Barry should be ahead of Havlicek. Barry was a legit alpha who could anchor a champion in a way that we just never saw with Havlicek. I know you can argue Hondo was the best player on champions, but Barry won a title with a roster that was actually platooned around him. That's actually quite impressive.

Walt Frazier - love his game, but while I'm good to elevate him to the top Knick of Red's Knicks over Reed, those Knicks were a team more than they were a set of distinct players. Given this and his limited longevity I wonder if I tend to overrate him...but I'll cheer when we induct him in.

Jason Kidd - the other point guard on my mind at the moment. I think Kidd at his peak got overrated, but he was very good for a long-time and played a very smart game. While I list him last year, I could see arguing for him over, say, Reggie fairly easily.

[andrewww]

Vote: Stephen Curry
Alternate: Elgin Baylor

For reasons that many have already stated, Curry is imo easily the greatest remaining peak player and with a growing resume that's only getting started. The real discussion is who comes after, and solid arguments can be made for guys like Drexler, Pippen or Kidd. I think Baylor is underrated historically as he was a beast pre-injury even if West was the best player on his team. He still holds the single game points record in Finals history, and that was in the 1962 Finals where that series along with the 1969 Finals were years the Lakers should have hurdled past the Celtics.

[lolathon234]

Quick question for anyone saying Curry had arguably the best peak all time based on RPM and On/Off. How do you explain the following?

2016 Draymond Green +18.3 On, -7.6 Off, Net +25.9 8.97 RPM
2016 Stephen Curry +18.1 On, -5.2 Off, Net +23.3, 8.51 RPM

Do we just disregard Draymond's numbers because they were almost always on the court together? Seems a bit unfair as you're essentially attributing all of Draymond's defensive impact to Curry

As for this season, the only lineups where they weren't on the floor together were the following.

D. Green, A. Iguodala, S. Livingston, K. Thompson, D. West|102:10|+8.8|
D. Green, A. Iguodala, S. Livingston, J. McAdoo, K. Thompson|57:10|+1.9|
K. Durant, D. Green, S. Livingston, Z. Pachulia, K. Thompson|33:32|+20.6|
I. Clark, S. Curry, K. Durant, A. Iguodala, J. McGee|29:28|+37.5|

Sure does seem unfair to Draymond that he had to play with the bench unit(West, Livingston, Iggy, McAdoo, no KD/Steph) while Curry never played with the bench outside of 29 minutes which still included KD.

Same thing for KD, his on/off got nuked by 2 lineups.

K. Durant, A. Iguodala, S. Livingston, K. Thompson, D. West|166:56|+13.1|
I. Clark, K. Durant, A. Iguodala, S. Livingston, D. West|52:08|-20.0|

[Doctor MJ]

Quick question for anyone saying Curry had arguably the best peak all time based on RPM and On/Off. How do you explain the following?

2016 Draymond Green +18.3 On, -7.6 Off, Net +25.9 8.97 RPM
2016 Stephen Curry +18.1 On, -5.2 Off, Net +23.3, 8.51 RPM

Do we just disregard Draymond's numbers because they were almost always on the court together? Seems a bit unfair as you're essentially attributing all of Draymond's defensive impact to Curry

As for this season, the only lineups where they weren't on the floor together were the following.

D. Green, A. Iguodala, S. Livingston, K. Thompson, D. West|102:10|+8.8|
D. Green, A. Iguodala, S. Livingston, J. McAdoo, K. Thompson|57:10|+1.9|
K. Durant, D. Green, S. Livingston, Z. Pachulia, K. Thompson|33:32|+20.6|
I. Clark, S. Curry, K. Durant, A. Iguodala, J. McGee|29:28|+37.5|

Sure does seem unfair to Draymond that he had to play with the bench unit(West, Livingston, Iggy, McAdoo, no KD/Steph) while Curry never played with the bench outside of 29 minutes which still included KD.

Same thing for KD, his on/off got nuked by 2 lineups.

K. Durant, A. Iguodala, S. Livingston, K. Thompson, D. West|166:56|+13.1|
I. Clark, K. Durant, A. Iguodala, S. Livingston, D. West|52:08|-20.0|

First thing I think I need to be really clear on is that I don't follow these stats as if they are precise statements of impact. There is noise of many kinds. What this means is that I absolutely analyzed Green & Curry to see if my best estimate was that Green was truly the most impressive player, but each time I've done this, I've sided with Curry.

Some reasons:

1) Curry's the one with outlier-among-outlier skill at shooting the ball in an age where shooting has become recognized as far more important than it was in the past.

2) Curry's the one who put up WTF numbers. Flirting with 70% TS while shooting 30 PPG, and his team breaks the season win record? Hard for me to fathom he's not the foundation of what they are doing.

3) Curry was the foundation of what they chose to do, and he absolutely remains the focus of opposing game plans, not Green.

4) In the playoffs, when times were really tough, it just felt like there was little Green could do to stem the tide. He's great when the team already has rhythm, but so is everyone. The ones who created the rhythm were Steph & Klay.

5) Curry didn't do something stupid and hand the Cavs everything they needed to find their rhythm and turn the series around.

This isn't to say I don't rate Green highly for the past couple years. I ranked him 6th in '15-16 and 4th in '16-17, with Curry 2nd both years.

Something you don't say in your questions, but I have to think is implied, is the idea that Curry couldn't possibly have the GOAT RS if another teammate was as elite as Green was, but actually it's exactly what we'd expect from a 73 win. Plenty of other guys have had a sidekick who could arguably be said to be a top 5 player, none of them won 73 games.

Re: disadvantage. The idea of using APM-style stats is that it adjusts for both lineups played with and played against. It can't remove noise entirely, but there's no inherent disadvantage to playing with weaker teammates because the stat will adjust for that as well as possible.

It's worth pointing out though a situation like Ginobili's where he was used typically as a 6th man. Presuming that was a wise choice, what that means is that Ginobili would be used disproportionately to attack opponent backups because it was thought he was particularly good and gaining advantages against bad players. How should we factor that in? Well, it's up to your. For myself, whenever I see a guy whose time was cherrypicked by his coach, I'm hesitant to make too much of what these numbers say.

[euroleague]

1st Vote: Curry
Alt: Hondo

I'll give the edge to Hondo over Pip for winning a chip w/o Russell. Too close to call.

Two chips.

Although Cowens was generally considered the primary (higher MVP shares, etc.) on those teams and Havlicek still the secondary.

Playoff Ws in 74: Havlicek - 3.5, Cowens - 2.1. Not really that close.

In 68/69 he also crushed his team in playoff WS.
68: Hondo - 2.8, Russell: 1.6
69: Hondo - 2.8, Russell: 1.4

Hondo was also the team captain in 74/76. Russell gets credit for his captaincy as the "leader" in 68/69. Cowens was the leader in 76, but retroactively gets a lot of credit that wasn't very deserved in that first championship in 74. Hondo was FMVP for a reason...

Continuing to vote:
Cousy
Alt: Hondo
HM: Curry

[Winsome Gerbil]

I just can't do Curry at this point. There is always SOME projection involved, but this high I want it to be just a little projection. Durant or CP3 have had almost full careers, they retire tomorrow, they still had a career nearly as long as many old timers who came into the league later. Steph? No. 574gms, 4 all star appearances. Its half a Top 30 player's resume. And if all goes as expected will he be up here? Absolutely. But if he retired tomorrow he would not be. He's been around longer, but it's a bit of the Walton scenario. And the key thing for Steph is he hasn't been a dominant player for 574 games. He basically has had 3 dominant seasons. 3. Just a few picks ago we are talking about guys with 10.

In fact if we are going to drop Steph in this high, then we are almost obligated to slap Russell Westbrook and James Harden in soon therafter:

SCurry 574gms 22.8pts 4.4reb 6.8ast 1.8stl 0.2blk 3.2TO
Harden 615gms 22.1pts 5.0reb 5.7ast 1.5stl 0.4blk 3.4TO
Westbr 668gms 22.7pts 6.2reb 7.9ast 1.7stl 0.3blk 3.9TO

SCurry 13088pts 2502reb 3917ast
Harden 13618pts 3093reb 3527ast
Westbr 15156pts 4149reb 5293ast


and it's just too early for that. I do think all those guys are going to be Top 50 for me, but I want to address the remaining 2nd tier legends first.


This spot is one of the great SGs/SFs for me: Pippen, Baylor, Havlicek, Barry, Drexler

[Winsome Gerbil]

29) Pippen
30) Baylor

[70sFan]

Havlicek isn't "weaker version" of Scottie Pippen. He's superior postseason performer by a wide margin and better shooter. They aren't the same type of players. John played more off the ball too.