Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project

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Re: Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#21 » by cecilthesheep » Tue Nov 6, 2018 10:16 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:Kirilenko is tough because he played more years at SF but his best play at PF and should have been there the whole time

If AK is listed at SF Marion has to be too, he also played the majority of his years there between early Suns and his whole post Suns career for the most part

Paul George is an omission. Paul Pressey was at SF not SG right? Julius Erving? Stephen Jackson another longlist candidate discussed in previous thread

I second the Paul Pressey and Paul George mentions. I also agree that AK and Marion should be the same position. I could go either way on which one that should be, but I'd lean strongly towards SF just because they played way more years there.
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Re: Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#22 » by cecilthesheep » Tue Nov 6, 2018 10:23 pm

I'm inclined to say Rodman should be a 4 because that's what he played most of his career, but I do think the case for him as a 3 is a lot stronger than it initially seems. He won both of his DPOYs from the 3, and it was considered his natural position for a long time. The time he spent at the 4 isn't an overpowering majority.

Still, if I had to make the choice I'd have him as a 4. My philosophy on this is that we should take someone's whole career and player type into account to decide their position, not just what they did best or where they played good defense. And if I had to pick one position for Rodman it would be the 4.
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Re: Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#23 » by Sublime187 » Tue Nov 6, 2018 10:41 pm

What Lebron did in the 2016 playoffs, I don't think any other SF could replicate.
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Re: Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#24 » by PistolPeteJR » Tue Nov 6, 2018 10:42 pm

cecilthesheep wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:Where is Dave DeBusschere?

DeBusschere should be at PF.


He was a 3/4 though. It’d make more sense to gauge who he covered most often.
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Re: Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#25 » by cecilthesheep » Tue Nov 6, 2018 10:58 pm

PistolPeteJR wrote:
cecilthesheep wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:Where is Dave DeBusschere?

DeBusschere should be at PF.


He was a 3/4 though. It’d make more sense to gauge who he covered most often.

This is an unscientific estimate, but going by Basketball Reference, he played 7 of his 12 seasons at the 4, gathered 5 of his 8 All-Star selections from the 4, and made all six of his All-Defensive teams as a 4. Anecdotally, I've watched a few games from his PF years with the Knicks, and I haven't seen him switching up to the 3 very much at all.
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T. Duncan '03 | L. Aldridge '18 | T. Cummings '90
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Re: Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#26 » by PistolPeteJR » Tue Nov 6, 2018 11:10 pm

cecilthesheep wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
cecilthesheep wrote:DeBusschere should be at PF.


He was a 3/4 though. It’d make more sense to gauge who he covered most often.

This is an unscientific estimate, but going by Basketball Reference, he played 7 of his 12 seasons at the 4, gathered 5 of his 8 All-Star selections from the 4, and made all six of his All-Defensive teams as a 4. Anecdotally, I've watched a few games from his PF years with the Knicks, and I haven't seen him switching up to the 3 very much at all.


Alright, guess we’re saving him. Thanks.
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Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#27 » by trex_8063 » Tue Nov 6, 2018 11:20 pm

I've tended to think of Paul Pressey as a SF, but I see bbref listed him as SG 8 of his 11 seasons. At any rate, I think we need to have him as a candidate here as we didn't include him as a candidate in the SG listing. He needs to have his mention in one or the other.
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Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#28 » by Owly » Wed Nov 7, 2018 12:25 am

Rick Barry AAA grades for Small Forwards (with the season after which the grade was given)
Corbin, Tyrone x1 ('90)
Elie, Mario x2 ('95-'96) [as this goes up to the final year elite grades could have gone on later]
Elliott, Sean x2 ('91-'92) ! [Seems like halo effect from playing with Robinson to me, but have to report what's said]
Hanzlik, Bill x2 ('90-'91)
Mason, Anthony x2 ('92, '95) [Do we consider him SF or PF?]
McCray, Rodney x2 ('90, '91)
McKey, Derrick x7!! [joint 2nd most among all players, Olajuwon rates AAA in all 8 editions, Robinson rates AAA for all 7 editions he was available for, ditto MJ, whilst Rodman, like McKey makes 7 out of a possible 8] ('89-'92, '94-'96)
Pippen, Scottie x6 ('91-96)
Pressey, Paul x2 ('89-'90)


* notes: Horry gets AAA for '95 - thought about him before and assumed he's PF, but that year, at least up to the Drexler trade he'd be mainly SF. Nance gets 4x AAA but though playing SF earlier in career at this time and overall more a PF, Sam Perkins gets 3x AAA '89-91 when he was notionally a 4 but probably just defending "forwards" in general and indeed beyond [from after the '89 season "Perkins, offensively a 4, is that rare defender who can guard, with equal facility, a Michael Jordan or a Karl Malone. At one time or another, he's guarded players of all positions"] - post-prime he was a center and I guess we figure him as a PF but as somewhat of a combo forward defensively with the ability to guard down to guards I figured he's worth mentioning. Clifford Robinson is another positionally fluid guy with a AAA grade (92 - which fwiw, Bkb-Ref designates as SF) across the forward line. Rodman, as mentioned in the McKey notes gets 7xAAA ('89-94, 96).

Elie was someone I'd thought about before - 97-14 RAPM doesn't love him, maybe that's not his best years? Scott Burrell gets a AA grade for '95 and rates well for the 97-14 DRAPM in a small sample, unfortunately he probably doesn't have enough of a career to get serious consideration (often injured, perhaps partially a result of his all-out style of play), but perhaps enough for the long list.

trex_8063 wrote:I've tended to think of Paul Pressey as a SF, but I see bbref listed him as SG 8 of his 11 seasons. At any rate, I think we need to have him as a candidate here as we didn't include him as a candidate in the SG listing. He needs to have his mention in one or the other.

Looking at the 2000+ minute seasons with him as notionally SG ...

1988: In the top 10 players in minutes they've got John Lucas, Moncrief, Craig Hodges and Ricky Pierce plus there's 18 games of Jay Humphries as a bench player. Now there's a lot of missed games so maybe Pressey's sometimes coming down to SG, (and looking at starting lineups starting often at the point with Moncrief at SG in a very big lineup - then as SG with Lucas - but I think he's a utility player positionally, starting more at PG, and probably ideally intended to play more at SF (Bruer starts but isn't great, better lines shift Sikma and Cummings up, with Lucas at the point and Moncrief at the 2 [or Hodges, Humphries, Pierce as part of the backcourt].

1989: Messy with injuries in the backcourt. As a starter he's in the backcourt (1 next to Moncrief, debatable next to Humphries). Pierce getting significant injuries off the bench again suggests limitations to backcourt minutes, possible intent to push Presey up to SF, though maybe this happens less when Moncrief goes down.

I think Pressey's a 3 (and point forward) first, a point guard second, and then maybe an SG/fit in wherever to make the wings rotation work. Putting him at 3 makes the most sense I think, even if we didn't now have to.
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Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#29 » by bledredwine » Wed Nov 7, 2018 12:40 am

Can we please list Metta World Peace as Ron Artest since we all remember his great defense as Ron Artest? Metta World Peace still looks like fiction, and something that only the completely new fans can relate too.
:o LeBron is 0-7 in game winning/tying FGs in the finals. And is 20/116 or 17% in game winning/tying FGs in the 4th/OT for his career. That's historically bad :o
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Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#30 » by bledredwine » Wed Nov 7, 2018 12:42 am

Woah. Why isn’t Dennis rodman on this list? His entire badboy pistons years were at Small Forward. This isn’t a defensive Small Forward list without Dennis Rodman. He’s not a PF primarily and the Bulls had Scottie. He was a defensive beast at SF. As mentioned, Rodman won his DPOY’s at small forward. Why would you list him in the all time defensive conversation as power forward? That doesn’t make sense at all.

That’s fine if you don’t want to list DeBuschere (sp?) Jimmy Butler etc, but let’s not cut every single PF/SF from this list for the PF list. Let’s be reasonable. Rodman’s great defense was at SF.
:o LeBron is 0-7 in game winning/tying FGs in the finals. And is 20/116 or 17% in game winning/tying FGs in the 4th/OT for his career. That's historically bad :o
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Re: Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#31 » by Joao Saraiva » Wed Nov 7, 2018 1:04 am

I see Kirilenko and LeBron as two special guys on that group. I feel like you could anchor a winning championship defense with them protecting the middle (no, not the same impact as Cs but they'd do a good enough job). Can't think of others that could do the same.

I think Kirilenko would be the best among the two in that role, even tough James was the one that actually got the deal done.

I'm wondering in what positions you guys will vote for them.

With this said they don't have to be #1 and #2 obviously, there are a ton of things to take into consideration here.
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Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#32 » by Joao Saraiva » Wed Nov 7, 2018 1:07 am

bledredwine wrote:Woah. Why isn’t Dennis rodman on this list? His entire badboy pistons years were at Small Forward. This isn’t a defensive Small Forward list without Dennis Rodman. He’s not a PF primarily and the Bulls had Scottie. He was a defensive beast at SF. As mentioned, Rodman won his DPOY’s at small forward. Why would you list him in the all time defensive conversation as power forward? That doesn’t make sense at all.

That’s fine if you don’t want to list DeBuschere (sp?) Jimmy Butler etc, but let’s not cut every single PF/SF from this list for the PF list. Let’s be reasonable. Rodman’s great defense was at SF.


Rodman played great defense as a PF too. I have no problem with him on a SF list or PF list, but your post indicates the guy only was a great defensor as a SF.

He could even upset great Cs. Maybe that is in people's minds when they say they see him more as a PF. Dude was annoying as hell, but he was efective vs super strong guys like Karl Malone or Shaquille O'neal (not all the time, but he certainly had the upper hand in some battles).
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Re: Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#33 » by Gibson22 » Wed Nov 7, 2018 1:15 am

So, are there any guys that you feel like I should open a poll about to decide their position? there have been doubts for rodman, debusschere, marion, kirilenko.

To me Kirilenko sf, marion sf but close to pf, debusschere you guys are saying sf, rodman sf.

anyway stephen jackson yes, paul george absolutely yes, paul pressey yes, anthony mason is a pf, we can put bill hanzlik
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Re: Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#34 » by Gibson22 » Wed Nov 7, 2018 1:22 am

lynch, gus johnson, willie wise, rick fox, ok.

would you remove any of these guys?

Scottie Pippen
Bruce Bowen
Lebron James
Shane Battier
Kawhi Leonard
John Havlicek
Andre Iguodala
Metta World Peace
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirilenko
Derrick McKey
Joe Caldwell
Jamaal Wilkes
Robert Covington
Bob Dandridge
Luol Deng
Tom Sanders
Gerald Wallace
Rodney McCray
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Re: Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#35 » by Gibson22 » Wed Nov 7, 2018 1:26 am

Oh, a guy that I strongly feel like he deserves to be in the candidates list (and in the top ten maybe) is grant hill
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Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#36 » by cecilthesheep » Wed Nov 7, 2018 1:27 am

bledredwine wrote:Woah. Why isn’t Dennis rodman on this list? His entire badboy pistons years were at Small Forward. This isn’t a defensive Small Forward list without Dennis Rodman. He’s not a PF primarily and the Bulls had Scottie. He was a defensive beast at SF. As mentioned, Rodman won his DPOY’s at small forward. Why would you list him in the all time defensive conversation as power forward? That doesn’t make sense at all.

That’s fine if you don’t want to list DeBuschere (sp?) Jimmy Butler etc, but let’s not cut every single PF/SF from this list for the PF list. Let’s be reasonable. Rodman’s great defense was at SF.

Read the thread if you want to see arguments for why he should be PF ... it's not "unreasonable" to argue for him at either forward position. For instance, he got most of his All-Defensive selections (5 out of his 8, and 4 out of his 7 first-team) as a 4. He played primarily at the 4 if you look at his whole career, and overall he was probably better at switching down onto centers than up onto shooting guards, although that's arguable.

There's a case for Rodman as a 3 and there's also a case for him as a 4, and they both make sense.
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Re: Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#37 » by cecilthesheep » Wed Nov 7, 2018 1:28 am

lebron3-14-3 wrote:So, are there any guys that you feel like I should open a poll about to decide their position? there have been doubts for rodman, debusschere, marion, kirilenko.

To me Kirilenko sf, marion sf but close to pf, debusschere you guys are saying sf, rodman sf.

anyway stephen jackson yes, paul george absolutely yes, paul pressey yes, anthony mason is a pf, we can put bill hanzlik

I'd be in favor of polls for Kirilenko, Marion, and Rodman. Those guys can go either way imo. DeBusschere I think is clearly a 4 though.
All-Time Spurs

T. Parker '13 | J. Silas '76 | J. Moore '83
G. Gervin '78 | M. Ginóbili '08 | A. Robertson '88
K. Leonard '17 | S. Elliott '95 | B. Bowen '05
T. Duncan '03 | L. Aldridge '18 | T. Cummings '90
D. Robinson '95 | A. Gilmore '83 | S. Nater '75
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Re: Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#38 » by Gibson22 » Wed Nov 7, 2018 1:38 am

cecilthesheep wrote:
lebron3-14-3 wrote:So, are there any guys that you feel like I should open a poll about to decide their position? there have been doubts for rodman, debusschere, marion, kirilenko.

To me Kirilenko sf, marion sf but close to pf, debusschere you guys are saying sf, rodman sf.

anyway stephen jackson yes, paul george absolutely yes, paul pressey yes, anthony mason is a pf, we can put bill hanzlik

I'd be in favor of polls for Kirilenko, Marion, and Rodman. Those guys can go either way imo. DeBusschere I think is clearly a 4 though.


I'll wait a bit to see if there are more guys to be put in the poll
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Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#39 » by SactoKingsFan » Wed Nov 7, 2018 1:42 am

Shawn Marion?

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Re: Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project 

Post#40 » by cecilthesheep » Wed Nov 7, 2018 1:42 am

lebron3-14-3 wrote:
cecilthesheep wrote:
lebron3-14-3 wrote:So, are there any guys that you feel like I should open a poll about to decide their position? there have been doubts for rodman, debusschere, marion, kirilenko.

To me Kirilenko sf, marion sf but close to pf, debusschere you guys are saying sf, rodman sf.

anyway stephen jackson yes, paul george absolutely yes, paul pressey yes, anthony mason is a pf, we can put bill hanzlik

I'd be in favor of polls for Kirilenko, Marion, and Rodman. Those guys can go either way imo. DeBusschere I think is clearly a 4 though.


I'll wait a bit to see if there are more guys to be put in the poll

Yeah I mean it can't hurt to have polls for as many people as needed. I think DeBusschere is a 4 but I'm just one guy. If others still think it's in doubt then a poll is definitely the best thing to do.
All-Time Spurs

T. Parker '13 | J. Silas '76 | J. Moore '83
G. Gervin '78 | M. Ginóbili '08 | A. Robertson '88
K. Leonard '17 | S. Elliott '95 | B. Bowen '05
T. Duncan '03 | L. Aldridge '18 | T. Cummings '90
D. Robinson '95 | A. Gilmore '83 | S. Nater '75

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