#2 Greatest Defensive C of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project

[trex_8063]

Thru post #20:

Hakeem Olajuwon - 7 (cecilthesheep, pandrade83, kendogg, lebron3-14-3, penbeast0, Dr Positivity, WestGOAT)
David Robinson - 3 (HeartBreakKid, trex_8063, SkyHookFTW)
Dikembe Mutombo - 1 (euroleague)

If anyone changes their pick, please alert me/lebron3-14-3 with a new post.

[cecilthesheep]

Speaking for myself, I don't know that there's any player who gets more mileage out of a single series or single playoff run than Hakeem. For instance, let's look at the common perception of Hakeem v DRob.....

The common perception was stated above in one of the quoted passages: that Hakeem "shut down Robinson". My first thought was, well.....Hakeem and one or two friends. I wish the search function worked [or that I'd saved copies in Google Docs] of the scouting reports [play-by-play] I'd made a couple years ago of the '95 WCF to share the specifics. But roughly speaking David Robinson, whenever receiving the ball in isolation, was facing a double-team (or occasional flashes of triple-team) approximately TWICE as often as Hakeem (maybe even marginally more). Hakeem was frequently enjoying single-coverage, also finding some easier assists particularly to Robert Horry [who had a fantastic series as Dennis Rodman was frequently ignoring him on the perimeter to wander toward the rim to be in better rebounding position].

...

Speaking for myself, I certainly feel Robinson is in the conversation, even with the lesser longevity. And Mutombo is definitely in consideration for me, especially given his longevity is very strong, too.

This all makes total sense, and I'm thinking pretty hard about my vote, although it'll probably still stay Hakeem. However, I just want to say that the '95 WCF wasn't a factor in this for me personally, for basically the reasons you've outlined. Rodman flat out refused to play the scheme and help on Hakeem, and Robinson gets unfairly maligned for a series in which he was often forced onto an island against one of the best post scorers ever while getting triple teamed on the other end.

My reasons for taking Hakeem are mostly based on eye test, since everything else appears to be a toss-up - advanced stats are similar, head to head is similar, longevity favors Hakeem but not by a huge margin. I really do think Hakeem was more switchable than the other guys people are talking about - Robinson was mobile, sure, but he couldn't move his feet the way Hakeem could. Nobody could. And from everything I've seen, Hakeem's help rotations and anticipation were just a level above. He made less mistakes than anyone I've ever watched.

[70sFan]

The more I think about it, the less I'm convinced that Hakeem has any longevity advantage in terms of defense. He wasn't defensive anchor early on (unlike Admiral who was great defender from day 1) and his defense was never the same after 1994. Granted, he was surrounded mostly by old and bad defenders in late 90s (you can still see his impact in 1998 when he missed half of the season - from average to one of the worsts defenses in the league) but I'm certain that 1998-01 Robinson was more impactful defensively than 1996-99 Hakeem.

This leads me to 1990-96 Admiral vs 1987-94 Dream. I think that Robinson was more consistent in that period. He also looks better for me as a P&R defender. Can't take one over the other in terms of rim protection.


I'm still unsure because Hakeem to my eyes was better man defender. More physical, stronger base and quicker hands.

[70sFan]

Speaking for myself, I don't know that there's any player who gets more mileage out of a single series or single playoff run than Hakeem. For instance, let's look at the common perception of Hakeem v DRob.....

The common perception was stated above in one of the quoted passages: that Hakeem "shut down Robinson". My first thought was, well.....Hakeem and one or two friends. I wish the search function worked [or that I'd saved copies in Google Docs] of the scouting reports [play-by-play] I'd made a couple years ago of the '95 WCF to share the specifics. But roughly speaking David Robinson, whenever receiving the ball in isolation, was facing a double-team (or occasional flashes of triple-team) approximately TWICE as often as Hakeem (maybe even marginally more). Hakeem was frequently enjoying single-coverage, also finding some easier assists particularly to Robert Horry [who had a fantastic series as Dennis Rodman was frequently ignoring him on the perimeter to wander toward the rim to be in better rebounding position].

...

Speaking for myself, I certainly feel Robinson is in the conversation, even with the lesser longevity. And Mutombo is definitely in consideration for me, especially given his longevity is very strong, too.

This all makes total sense, and I'm thinking pretty hard about my vote, although it'll probably still stay Hakeem. However, I just want to say that the '95 WCF wasn't a factor in this for me personally, for basically the reasons you've outlined. Rodman flat out refused to play the scheme and help on Hakeem, and Robinson gets unfairly maligned for a series in which he was often forced onto an island against one of the best post scorers ever while getting triple teamed on the other end.

My reasons for taking Hakeem are mostly based on eye test, since everything else appears to be a toss-up - advanced stats are similar, head to head is similar, longevity favors Hakeem but not by a huge margin. I really do think Hakeem was more switchable than the other guys people are talking about - Robinson was mobile, sure, but he couldn't move his feet the way Hakeem could. Nobody could. And from everything I've seen, Hakeem's help rotations and anticipation were just a level above. He made less mistakes than anyone I've ever watched.

Not sure I agree with bolded. Hakeem was actually prone to overcomiting himself before the shot was taken, he was sometimes too agressive. If anything, his unreal athleticism and natural feel for the game more than made up his tendency to read the offense wrong. I definitely wouldn't take him over Duncan for example in that aspect.

[Owly]

Perhaps I shouldn't said that at all, but if you'll take closer note of the very passage you've quoted, I clearly state I'd probably have put Hakeem at the end of the Hakeem/DRob/Mutombo trio anyway. So my vote was likely going to either Deke or David regardless. That neither of them appear to be getting the consideration I feel they both deserve was merely an "extra" (though ultimately probably unnecessary) motivation to vote either DRob or Mutombo.

Fair enough. I thought Prime DRob was a slightly more impactful defender than Hakeem too, but the prime is several years shorter and that pushed me the other way. Don't see Mutombo as having the quickness to defend the horizontal as well as the vertical game to the same degree though I am glad he is getting his props.

Is it though, for their defensive primes?

Obviously I get it, heck trex - supporting and then ultimately voting Robinson - just listed a 7 (healthy) year span for Robinson versus an 11 year span for Olajuwon for primes [a substantial gap]. But (leaving aside my belief that people using the injury short-change Robinson's overall prime massively) do you think Robinson's defensive prime ended with the injury? If so and all earlier years are on a separate tier from 98, 99 etc (of course you may say that, say, 98 and 99 are years you include in his prime and count 2 years as several if you account for prime in other respects the same way trex) the question then (or another angle at looking at the value added) is "how good are those defensive Robinson prime years to have separated themselves from this?" and "are we sure that we have aligned the tiers fairly - i.e. is this non-prime year as good as some Olajuwon prime years?"

He made less mistakes than anyone I've ever watched.

Not sure I agree with bolded. Hakeem was actually prone to overcomiting himself before the shot was taken, he was sometimes too agressive. If anything, his unreal athleticism and natural feel for the game more than made up his tendency to read the offense wrong. I definitely wouldn't take him over Duncan for example in that aspect.

One possible, very rough, indicator for this would be foul rate. Of the guys mentioned Hakeem is at 4.9 personal fouls per 100 possessions, Mutombo 4.8 and Robinson at 4.3 (Ewing, for comparison, and as someone sometimes criticized as too willing to bite on fakes, is at 5.1).

[AdagioPace]

'99 is absolutely a prime defensive season by Drob, without any doubt. Him, Zo and Mutombo were the best defenders in the NBA.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Vote Hakeem

I liked Hakeem's cat like, bigger Draymond Green like lateral movement and quick intelligent defesenive reactions.
Pre injury DRob was technically quicker but I'd did not feel like his reactions were quicker.
I probably will Vote for Mutombo at 3

[bledredwine]

Vote: Hakeem Olajuwon

[trex_8063]

Hakeem Olajuwon - 9
David Robinson - 3 (or 4?? 70sFan seemed to hedging toward DRob)
Dikembe Mutombo - 1


Will call it for Hakeem. Have the next up in a moment. Happy New Year all!