If LeBron James & KD never became ring chasers, where would they be in all-time list?

[Drygon]

LeBron never became a ring chaser. He desired to control his own destiny. And left a poorly run franchise.

That's some hypocritical fanboy bullsh*t.

Agreed. I'm surprised of how people are trying to change the narrative in LeBron's favour.

KD's decison to join GSW is obviously worse, but let's not act like LeBron's decision was anything different in principle. It was and with the full intent on creating an absolutely unfair advantage which he publicly recognized with the "not 1....not 2.." speech.

Putting prime LeBron on a team with Wade & Bosh in the weak Eastern Conference made Miami Heat instant heavy title favorites, they knew it, everyone in the world knew it, so trying to act otherwise is just silly. That was the entire point of LeBron's move, no other team had nearly the amount of talent they did; ergo ring chasing.

The same sorts of folks who talked about KD's move also talked about how LeBron was ring chasing in 2011. NBA Legends, Current Players, Coaches, Media etc. All called it weak, not competitive, ring-chasing etc.

No one in NBA history has ever spent their whole career with a front office as poor as what LeBron had in Cleveland.

That's simply inaccurate. Cleveland had issues, but even when he was on a really good Cleveland team people just pretend it wasn't.

The 66 win Cleveland team is tied for the most wins of any team Lebron every played on! Those 66 wins puts them right up there with the best of the Celtics Larry Bird teams, the Magic Johnson Lakers, the Duncan Spurs, etc..

And... before someone says, yeah well that Cavs team wasn't that great because they didn't win a championship, well neither did the 73 win Warriors team and I had to hear people complain for years about how great they were.

The Cavs during late 2000s are very underrated due to how people trying to crap on them in order to prop up LeBron.

LeBron had a well-constructed team around him with COTY Mike Brown on the sideline.

[Myth]

About where they are since rings are largely an accomplishment of management

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So was it management that got LeBron to the Finals' 9 times so far?

Or just management's fault that he lost 6 of them?

In LeBron's case, he is the management.

[Pennebaker]

LeBron was already the best player I've ever seen even before he went to Miami. And I was a die-hard Jordan fan from the 80s to the Wizards. But LeBron was different from anyone else. Bigger, stronger, faster, elite passer, best perimeter defender in the league, lethal scorer. The ideal basketball player. So he was going to be top 10 regardless.

KD is a totally different story. He needed the rings more than LeBron did. And even then they still didn't help him that much.

[His Airness 23]

It’s impossible for me to even rank Durant because I don’t count anything he did in the last 3 seasons as a positive. He used a cheat code and won some games, he’s not becoming an all-time great using that path

[BayWarrior]

Doesn't change anything. Lebron is #2 after MJ and KD is just outside top ten may be able to sneak in if he revives his career following the injury.

[Statlanta]

No one in NBA history has ever spent their whole career with a front office as poor as what LeBron had in Cleveland. Oscar, KG, T-Mac, every one of them got out eventually.

People overrate that situation. The Clippers and Knicks were in as poor straights as the Cavs, to say nothing of the Charlotte Bobcats.

Heck LeBron played with the best Cavs player since the 90's until 2011.

If LBJ was a GOAT player he would have got them a title(much like Dirk and Hakeem did) just like he got them to the Finals with that same core from that poor franchise.

[ellobo]

Ring chasing is joining a team that was already a championship contender without you, especially when you are not clearly the best player on the team and riding the coattails of others. When did LeBron do that?

Besides, in a broader sense, "ring chasing" is the whole competitive object of the sport. When you have next in a pickup game, you pick the best squad you can -- is it bad for NBA players to do the equivalent?

[agetro23]

Neither player would be as highly regarded. Durant moreso but he'd still be one the GOAT pure scorers, if not THE greatest pure scorer.

[kali323]

All these people who dont think lebron was ring chasing most likely started watching basketball in 2014. Lebron, wade and bosh (3 of top 5 of the same draft class which is also considered best draft class of all time next to 96) plan to team up years ahead of time. Who cares what miami did the previous year. They only brought back wade and haslem. They had wade who some considered the mvp of 2009 and already was a finals mvp, lebron who was mvp of 2009 and bosh who was top 10 at the time join up. Before the rest of the roster was filled, many people considered them champions and people wanted to cancel the season. They were supposed to be the 73-9 warriors before the warriors. Many people were mad and thought it was unfair etc. They had a championship parade before the season even started. I remember everybody wanted to be part of the heat cuz it was a "guarantee" ring. Lebron said pat riley can start and wont make a difference. Just cuz they werent as good as they were supposed to be doesnt mean lebron didnt ring chase

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[Joerezz7]

Obviously, they're both exceptional players in their own rights.

In term of legacy... LeBron is a top 5 player of all-time while KD is top 15 due to how they stacked the deck in their favor by joining Miami Heat & Golden State Warriors respectively to win Finals MVPs & Championships.

Now do you think their place in all-time raking would've looked different if they never ring chased?

-----------------------------

Here's my own thoughts.

LeBron James: Would be arguably in conversation as a top 10 player (alongside with Kobe) even if he only won just 1 Championship with Cleveland Cavaliers. His career resume & accomplishments is ridiculously impressive. But LeBron wouldn't be anywhere close in GOAT debate without those 2 rings he got in Miami Heat.

Kevin Durant: He would be rated significantly much lower if KD never got his rings at GSW as the 1st option. They are many all-time greats (Chris Paul, Nash, Karl Malone, Barkley etc.) who are better players than KD. But since they're ringless, people are causally putting KD's name higher than them.

Many people are saying KD is the best "pure scorer" in his era. Which makes absolutely no sense. Over the past 2 seasons, James Harden has been objectively a far superior better scorer than any version of KD. Never mind that Harden is a better overall offensive player due to being elite as a playmaker & shooter. But since KD won rings + Finals MVPs, people are unwilling to accept Harden as the better scorer.

If KD never got Finals MVPs + rings, he would never be even be considered as a top 3 player of 2010s when you've guys like LeBron, Curry, Harden and even Kawhi Leonard. All of these guys are much better all-around players than KD.

We agree pretty often but you’re wrong here bro. James Harden is nowhere near the shooter that KD is. Harden is a great scorer but he also chokes in the playoffs too. KD is more clutch in the playoffs and has proven that.

KD already had a MVP scoring title and Finals appearance before he joined the Warriors. His numbers is way better than
Kawhi career wise and we could go season by season wise too. Kawhi just became a star in 2017 and a superstar in 2019. Can’t compare him to KD.

By the way we never seen the Warriors beat a healthy Cavs team. Don’t forget KD joined the Warriors because Curry and the Warriors couldn’t beat a fully healthy Cavs team


He outperformed Lebron in both of the Finals too. 2X Finals MVP.

To answer your questions both Lebron and KD would be top 20 all time without the rings

[Bankai]

LeBron became a ring chaser and people still arguably put him as the GOAT over Jordan. I think his legacy is already very high.

Durant's legacy however has taken a hit even if it's still high. Though it has to do more with his off court shenanigans than his on court.

[Asianiac_24]

Both would be similar to where they are now in the PC board. Everywhere else, especially to the general public, is where they take the biggest hit

[Badonkadonk]

Lebron stole a chip for his hometown that it otherwise had NO business winning. Kyrie and Love are absolute frauds. He's as much a ring maker as he is a ring chaser.

KD? That's hard to say. He has no comparable - he joined a 73 win team, so it's impossible to say if he could have elevated his own team in his prime.

[MoochieNorris]

nash, chuck, cp0 and malone are better players than kd now.

ok then

[BigtimeNBAfan]

Lebron was not a ring chaser. He certainly left for a better situation, but you aren't a ring chaser if you are the best player in the nba, win the MVP, the finals mvp and lead your team in 4/5 of the major statistical categories and carry that team to a championship. Remember game 6 of the ECF in 2012 when the Heat were down 3-2 and Lebron went off for a 30 point first half carrying the Heat in a must win game on the road to force a game 7 that they won too? Were you watching that legendary performance and saying "look at this guy ring chasing?" Lol, it is ridiculous.

Calling Lebron a ring chaser just means you are a hater. An example of ring chasing would be Karl Malone with the Lakers at the end of his career. Not that I blame him, but Malone was not the go to guy on the Lakers nor was he the leader. He latched onto a team as a piece hoping it would get him a championship. If Malone went to the Lakers and was the leading scorer and the leader of the team it would not be ring chasing just because he changed teams.

[Sublime187]

Okay, so the point of this thread is you hate LeBron. Got it.

You didn't have to make such a long post just to say that...

[Statlanta]

Lebron was not a ring chaser. He certainly left for a better situation, but you aren't a ring chaser if you are the best player in the nba, win the MVP, the finals mvp and lead your team in 4/5 of the major statistical categories and carry that team to a championship. Remember game 6 of the ECF in 2012 when the Heat were down 3-2 and Lebron went off for a 30 point first half carrying the Heat in a must win game on the road to force a game 7 that they won too? Were you watching that legendary performance and saying "look at this guy ring chasing?" Lol, it is ridiculous.

Calling Lebron a ring chaser just means you are a hater. An example of ring chasing would be Karl Malone with the Lakers at the end of his career. Not that I blame him, but Malone was not the go to guy on the Lakers nor was he the leader. He latched onto a team as a piece hoping it would get him a championship. If Malone went to the Lakers and was the leading scorer and the leader of the team it would not be ring chasing just because he changed teams.

It's semantics at this point but KG, LeBron and KD all started this trend of 1st team All-NBA players not attracting other players but leaving established situations in their prime for an easier chance at winning.

Each did it increasingly worse and LBJ even FAILED at accomplishing the goal(heck being down 3-2 to a worse version of the Celtics should be an even worse indictment against LeBron), yet he's the GOAT in some eyes.

[LakersLegacy]

I feel like what KD is slightly worse than LeBron joint Wade, Bosh.

The Warriors has already won a championship with their core4 Steph, Klay, Iggy, Green and coach Kerr.

Either of their legacies would likely be worse.

[Sofia]

Lebron would’ve won 5 straight MVPs for a start.

He had better numbers than Rose in his MVP year, but the media were out on Lebron, they had to maintain the villain narrative

[Sedale Threatt]

No one in NBA history has ever spent their whole career with a front office as poor as what LeBron had in Cleveland.

That's simply inaccurate. Cleveland had issues, but even when he was on a really good Cleveland team people just pretend it wasn't.

The 66 win Cleveland team is tied for the most wins of any team Lebron every played on! Those 66 wins puts them right up there with the best of the Celtics Larry Bird teams, the Magic Johnson Lakers, the Duncan Spurs, etc..

And... before someone says, yeah well that Cavs team wasn't that great because they didn't win a championship, well neither did the 73 win Warriors team and I had to hear people complain for years about how great they were.

Now go look at the actual roster.