Should Oscar Robertson get more love?

[70sFan]

Do you think Oscar would develop 3pt range today? I defer to your knowledge if you’ve seen him taking a lot of really deep twos.

It's very hard to tell to be honest. Oscar had very unique form and most of his shooting mechanics came from one hand. I don't think it's perfect for a three point shooter, but stranger things happened.

It's very hard to project how good of a three point shooter Oscar would be, because he rarely took deep twos. That said, he was comfortable up to around 18 feet (that's my estimation, nothing else) and his shooting touch was certainly elite. I doubt he wouldn't be able to adjust, though I wouldn't project some insane level of three point shooting either.

To be honest, if you ignore weird shooting form, then Oscar's shot looks better suited to three pointer than Jordan's for example.

[ty 4191]

Steals weren't even tracked during Oscar's career, and he was known for his proclivity with stealing the ball. He loses a ton of value because of this.

Do you have a source on this?

I've seen some positive quotes on his D and I'd guess that I'd lean slightly more bullish on his D than many here, but personally I don't recall seeing this cited anywhere.

Thanks.

I do, and you're welcome.

nbastats.net

Scroll all the way down to "Unofficial Stats: Part 1 and Part 2". Click to download.

Before 73'-74', Oscar had at least 7 quadruple doubles, and at least 8 games with 10 steals before steals began being officially tracked.

If he was capable of those totals, he was very likely very good at stealing the ball, no?

[ty 4191]

To be honest, if you ignore weird shooting form, then Oscar's shot looks better suited to three pointer than Jordan's for example.

I would hope it would be MUCH better than Jordan's.

Jordan's 3 point percentage was .327. That ranks 70th out of 83 players who played 1985-2004 and put up 1700 3's or more.

It is an urban legend and common trope on these message boards that Jordan was deadly from 3 range. He was actually horrendous.

[ty 4191]

Oscar Robertson's ranks among all players, 1961-1974:

Offensive Win Shares:
Oscar: 152
Wilt: 144
West: 125
Bellamy: 103

Defensive Win Shares:
10th

Think about all the players with a 1000+ game career...

And..

Were the single best best offensive AND one of the best defensive players of their entire era..

How many of that group can we say we don't rank top 10 all time?

I'm not saying he is top 10, but I think he's underrated, even here.

[Owly]

Steals weren't even tracked during Oscar's career, and he was known for his proclivity with stealing the ball. He loses a ton of value because of this.

Do you have a source on this?

I've seen some positive quotes on his D and I'd guess that I'd lean slightly more bullish on his D than many here, but personally I don't recall seeing this cited anywhere.

Thanks.

I do, and you're welcome.

nbastats.net

Scroll all the way down to "Unofficial Stats: Part 1 and Part 2". Click to download.

Before 73'-74', Oscar had at least 7 quadruple doubles, and at least 8 games with 10 steals before steals began being officially tracked.

If he was capable of those totals, he was very likely very good at stealing the ball, no?

So ...
I'd argue that:
- "he was known for it" and he did it are different things.
- The latter is more important.
- Sourcing data for this era is hard.
- Nevertheless this source accepts an account of Wilt blocking 50 shots (49 not called as goal-tends) in a pro game, with no overtime and 71 opponent field goals missed, 119 attempted (i.e he's apparently swatting circa 5/12ths of all opponent shots and circa 5/7ths of their misses) https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196011050DET.html.
- assuming the attributed sources are legit and their quotes are accurately transcribed and are the main source it gives 13 from a vague statement about stealing "every chance he got in 2nd Qtr" not in quotation marks. Then 10 from "many steals", "a terrific harassing job" etc. Yes I love that some people are searching for quotes. I think the people are taking it reasonably seriously. I do though think barely anyone bar maybe Pollack (even here still not necessarily neutral, but at least a trusted name) was giving serious attention to tracking this kind of stuff and in these instances it's unclear that the figures were even given contemporaneously [surely you'd quote that passage] rather than just guessed more recently.

-Even imagining all these instances had full accurate citations of numbers steals wasn't a tightly defined concept at the time so it would be inconsistent and easier to fudge in either direction.

So whilst I appreciate you providing your source, I'm not convinced that this meant he had either a reputation or noteworthy ability as a thief.

[ceiling raiser]

Just a note, I was a collaborator on nbastats.net for a number of years. The block/steal numbers come from mentions in newspaper writeups or other accounts. Generally I would take them with a grain of salt (since sports reporters have a tendency to overestimate statistics), with two exceptions:

(1) Sixers games (since Pollack tracked a lot of unofficial stats)
(2) Lakers games in 72 and 73 (they actually tracked Wilt's blocks)

[SNPA]

People under estimate his size and strength. He is a proto-LeBron.

[feyki]

Give him a Kobe-type longevity, then he's top 10 definitely.

[Owly]

Give him a Kobe-type longevity, then he's top 10 definitely.

Could you clarify on this? People mean different things by longevity.
Are you talking years? Minutes?
Does quality matter? If so what's the rough longevity of quality comparison going on here?

Sidenotes
Kobe has 4751 extra RS minutes.
Kobe played in an era where players played longer overall (though [but even after accounting for] superstars less per game)
Oscar's first couple of seasons (mainly first one) are a touch shorter than the normal 82.
Bryant plays in 2 lockout shortened seasons.
Playoffs are a bit funky for longevity ... outside a player's control and different formats across eras but creating mileage on the player - I tend to look RS, but can see that playoff mileage occurs. Bryant leads substantially here.
Bryant jumped from HS, Robertson couldn't but accounts suggest he could have (which isn't the same as "did").

[feyki]

Give him a Kobe-type longevity, then he's top 10 definitely.

Could you clarify on this? People mean different things by longevity.
Are you talking years? Minutes?
Does quality matter? If so what's the rough longevity of quality comparison going on here?

Sidenotes
Kobe has 4751 extra RS minutes.
Kobe played in an era where players played longer overall (though [but even after accounting for] superstars less per game)
Oscar's first couple of seasons (mainly first one) are a touch shorter than the normal 82.
Bryant plays in 2 lockout shortened seasons.
Playoffs are a bit funky for longevity ... outside a player's control and different formats across eras but creating mileage on the player - I tend to look RS, but can see that playoff mileage occurs. Bryant leads substantially here.
Bryant jumped from HS, Robertson couldn't but accounts suggest he could have (which isn't the same as "did").

Years. Kobe had 15 years all nba years, Oscar had 13. Both had one more above average to all star level year. Oscar peaked at higher level, but two all nba years worth big. Still they're close, career-wise; but Oscar had that kind of longevity, he would've a career which around Shaq-Magic, maybe even Duncan/Wilt.

[ty 4191]

Years. Kobe had 15 years all nba years, Oscar had 13. Both had one more above average to all star level year. Oscar peaked at higher level, but two all nba years worth big. Still they're close, career-wise; but Oscar had that kind of longevity, he would've a career which around Shaq-Magic, maybe even Duncan/Wilt.

As a frame of reference. Re: Drastic increases in training, nutrition, sports medicine, etc. etc.

3 players played 10000 minutes or more after turning 33 from 1961-1974. 9 played 5000 minutes.

34 players played 10000 minutes or more after turning 33 from 1997-1016. 90 played 5000 minutes.

Also: The Supreme Court Ruling involving players being drafted out of HS didn't come into effect until Haywood vs. The NBA (1971).

Kobe played 266 games and 7579 RS minutes played before Oscar was even eligible for the NBA. He also played 50 postseason games and won a World Championship.

If you give Oscar some good old age seasons, due to drastic improvements in training etc, and (also) his college years back, what would his career have looked like?

[ty 4191]

So whilst I appreciate you providing your source, I'm not convinced that this meant he had either a reputation or noteworthy ability as a thief.

I would agree, based on your breakdown. Well said, Sir.

Do anyone have any info about either Oscar's defense, or, specifically, his stealing ability?

[ty 4191]

Kobe played in an era where players played longer overall (though [but even after accounting for] superstars less per game).

Can you explain how "superstars playing less per game" back then? Thanks!

[Owly]

Kobe played in an era where players played longer overall (though [but even after accounting for] superstars less per game).

Can you explain how "superstars playing less per game" back then? Thanks!

I both can and can't.
You misread.

Kobe played in an era where players played longer overall (no Kevin Willis, Moses Malone, Robert Parish, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, Karl Malone, John Stockton,Charles Oakley,James Edwards 19+ year careers back then) but played less per game. The subject of the sentence is still Bryant.

The double parenthesis notes that later players rack up greater minute totals even though playing fewer minutes per game.

[Owly]

So whilst I appreciate you providing your source, I'm not convinced that this meant he had either a reputation or noteworthy ability as a thief.

I would agree, based on your breakdown. Well said, Sir.

Do anyone have any info about either Oscar's defense, or, specifically, his stealing ability?

There isn't a lot that I'm aware of. What I have and will discuss is defense in general.

His large net impact (via WoWY) suggests it is very unlikely he was poor on that end.

The most bullish (and somewhat credible) sources on his D are the following (I think all taken from Ken Shouler's The Experts Pick p22, if I'm interpreting some notes in an old Word doc right)

Dave Bing “Oscar is without a doubt the all-time everything basketball player. His tremendous offensive ability has overshadowed his great defensive skills”
Lenny Wilkens in 1973 “if there’s one complete player, it’s Oscar Robertson. He does everything flawlessly and is a perfectionist.”
Connie Hawkins “He was tough on defense too. He had great physical strength and was big and strong and would beat guys up.”

Bjarkman is, iirc, bullish, but though he's done some very broad research for the basketball books I'm not always convinced it was deep and my impression was he was more a baseball expert.

Robert Kalich rated him an 8/10 on D (Robertson's lowest grade in 15 categories) in his Basketball Ratings Handbook - seemingly based on peaks - which put him tied with Wilkens (below West and Frazier [10s] and Sloan [9] among still active guards at the time though Havlicek's 5 raises credibility issues). I wouldn't put a lot of weight on that either.

The absence of much discussion pushes me more towards average.

My guess, if forced, is a positive for a starter, but not a huge one. He's smart and strong, proud and intense and demanding - which would be positive indicators. If defensive rebounding is included that's a positive (though pace and high minutes inflate the raw numbers, and defensive rebounds are a team activity where individual totals can sometimes mislead). But as before in absence of a lot data (even qualitative reputation) makes me cautious my best guess (with huge uncertainty) is thus, as stated, positive but not great.

[Max123]

Give him a Kobe-type longevity, then he's top 10 definitely.

Could you clarify on this? People mean different things by longevity.
Are you talking years? Minutes?
Does quality matter? If so what's the rough longevity of quality comparison going on here?

Sidenotes
Kobe has 4751 extra RS minutes.
Kobe played in an era where players played longer overall (though [but even after accounting for] superstars less per game)
Oscar's first couple of seasons (mainly first one) are a touch shorter than the normal 82.
Bryant plays in 2 lockout shortened seasons.
Playoffs are a bit funky for longevity ... outside a player's control and different formats across eras but creating mileage on the player - I tend to look RS, but can see that playoff mileage occurs. Bryant leads substantially here.
Bryant jumped from HS, Robertson couldn't but accounts suggest he could have (which isn't the same as "did").

Years. Kobe had 15 years all nba years, Oscar had 13. Both had one more above average to all star level year. Oscar peaked at higher level, but two all nba years worth big. Still they're close, career-wise; but Oscar had that kind of longevity, he would've a career which around Shaq-Magic, maybe even Duncan/Wilt.

Is there not an era-adjustment for longevity? Don’t stars keep on playing longer as we progress from history to this point or is that false?


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[ty 4191]

Is there not an era-adjustment for longevity? Don’t stars keep on playing longer as we progress from history to this point or is that false?

As a frame of reference. Re: Drastic increases in training, nutrition, sports medicine, etc. etc.

3 players played 10000 minutes or more after turning 33 from 1961-1974. 9 played 5000 minutes.

34 players played 10000 minutes or more after turning 33 from 1997-1016. 90 played 5000 minutes.

Also: The Supreme Court Ruling involving players being drafted out of HS didn't come into effect until Haywood vs. The NBA (1971).

Kobe played 266 games and 7579 RS minutes played before Oscar was even eligible for the NBA. He also played 50 postseason games and won a World Championship.

If you give Oscar some good old age seasons, due to drastic improvements in training etc, and (also) his college years back (playing in the NBA), what would his career have looked like?

[countryboy667]

You can't be in considerstion for the top 10 all time if you've never led a team to a title multiple times. Oscar has never even done it once. Never even led a team to the finals.

With that said he does have a high level of individual success, accomplishments, and accolades. He put up all time great stats. He was able to compete for titles as the #2 guy. Top 20 seems appropriate to me.

I think that's just plain nonsense--unlike today's (IMO) pathetic game full of chuckers, in Oscar's time you HAD to have a top-flight big man for a team to win a title. Oscar never had one. Six-eight Jerry Lucas was the best big he ever teamed with, and while very good (he'd EASILY be the best small-ball five in the game today) Luke could not compete with the genuine bigs like Wilt, Russell, Bellamy, Nate, Reed, and others.

And you tend to forget--as good as young Kareem was, he'd be the first to tell you without Oscar there would have been no Bucks title. Without Oscar running the team, that bunch are also-rans not champions

There was nothing flashy about Oscar's game--he was a wonderful athlete who played with no waste motion. He just executed the fundamentals flawlessly, something (again, IMO) NO player in the game does today. And he played within the rules (steps, palming, with no ludicrous "continuation" etc. etc.) that players in today's formless, bastardized game are simply allowed to ignore as long as it looks impressive.

This win a title or you don't deserve to be considered in the top ten all time is just so much manure. Basketball is--I'll remind you--a TEAM game, even in its present degenerate form.