RealGM

LateNight wrote:It’s worth pointing out that Vuc is suited to the current half-court offense. With the full roster, we ran a fast-paced transition offense - which Lonzo is great at. Playing with Ayo has helped Vuc because both of those players are used to that system (ayo is still used to running an offense built with kofi at center).

Going into this season, I heard a lot of people wondering whether Vuc would be able to play at the pace it looked like this team was built to play.

That is a fair point.

The team, Zach and DDR, badly wanted to get Vuuch going. So I think they have also learned what is a better way of that making it happen. Thus, I think that particular ill fit will be mitigated going forward.

coldfish wrote:

TokeBulls wrote:You can't just say the Bulls would have drafted Wagner. There's no guarantee they draft him.

+1. The Bulls very well could have taken Zaire Williams, Boughknight or Davion Mitchell. Kudos to the Magic for picking the right guy.

The Bulls traded Butler for several things plus the 7 pick which they used on Markkanen. Had they taken Mitchell or Bam, we might thing very differently of the trade but that would be a false choice. The #7 pick is the #7 pick. What you do with it is a function of your drafting ability.

The whole WCJ/Wagner thing employs the 2K attitude I referenced earlier in this thread. That you can just move guys around from team to team and they are who they are, will perform as they perform and team build/role, etc don’t play a factor. Except we know that stuff does play a big factor.

It’s a lot easier to put up numbers when you know you are a focal point. When there is no alpha. What are those two guys doing playing with Zach and DeRozan? Could be killing it. Might also be walking on eggshells feeling uncertain when to try anything on offense outside of open looks. Instead of being aggressive like they are in Orlando, their default on a good team may become - “How do I get it back to Zach!?” or “Get that hot potato back to DeMar!!”

Not my original thought, but someone asked why WCJ/Franz’s numbers are all gold, but then how did so many in the same breath say Vuc put up empty stats on a bad team?

At least with WCJ, he was pretty poor with one alpha scorer on the court. Great chance that doesn’t get any better with two.

Wingy wrote:

coldfish wrote:

TokeBulls wrote:You can't just say the Bulls would have drafted Wagner. There's no guarantee they draft him.

+1. The Bulls very well could have taken Zaire Williams, Boughknight or Davion Mitchell. Kudos to the Magic for picking the right guy.

The Bulls traded Butler for several things plus the 7 pick which they used on Markkanen. Had they taken Mitchell or Bam, we might thing very differently of the trade but that would be a false choice. The #7 pick is the #7 pick. What you do with it is a function of your drafting ability.

The whole WCJ/Wagner thing employs the 2K attitude I referenced earlier in this thread. That you can just move guys around from team to team and they are who they are, will perform as they perform and team build/role, etc don’t play a factor. Except we know that stuff does play a big factor.

It’s a lot easier to put up numbers when you know you are a focal point. When there is no alpha. What are those two guys doing playing with Zach and DeRozan? Could be killing it. Might also be walking on eggshells feeling uncertain when to try anything on offense outside of open looks. Instead of being aggressive like they are in Orlando, their default on a good team may become - “How do I get it back to Zach!?” or “Get that hot potato back to DeMar!!”

Not my original thought, but someone asked why WCJ/Franz’s numbers are all gold, but then how did so many in the same breath say Vuc put up empty stats on a bad team?

At least with WCJ, he was pretty poor with one alpha scorer on the court. Great chance that doesn’t get any better with two.

We can make ourselves feel better or worse, but AKME did the trade, so we are where we are.

The truth on Vuc is that he is probably one of the few centers who wouldn't suck even more in Billy's offense.

HomoSapien wrote:There’s a decent chance we don’t get DeRozan without Vuc — we’ve heard first hand from DDR how instrumental Vuc was in his coming here.

Anything is possible, but offering 72 million more than the next best known offer sure seems a lot more likely.

If we hadn’t traded for Vuc, I also imagine that there’s a good chance that we wouldn’t have pursued DDR in the off-season at all and would have instead focused on getting Ball and finding someone else to play this “hub” center role in BD’s offense.

Anything is possible, but there's no reason to think this.

Carter’s playing better in Orlando than he did here. Would he have made these same strides here? Maybe, but sometimes young players need that change of scenery.

Carter is not doing anything that wasn't within his most likely outcome. He was injured much of his early time here, lost most of two off-seasons in terms of development, and is now basically playing exactly like we thought he would play the whole time. It was an extraordinarily predictable outcome that he would do what he is doing. If he turned into a 25/10 player, then I'd say "wow, couldn't see that coming", but that didn't happen.

WIth us he was getting abused by other centers and Orlando currently has the 2nd worst record in the league so it’s not like Carter’s play has translated into anything yet.

Vuc led Orlando to lousy records for the better part of 10 years, so not sure what relevance this is. What's the best record they achieved with him there? 42 wins if memory serves me correctly.

People over react like crazy. They don't realize that what a player averages doesn't mean that's what he'll do every single night, or even every single month. So someone has a few down weeks or even months, and we get threads like "Vuc Sucks", or "Get Rid of Coby". Now Vuc is playing well, and Coby is pretty good too.

From the unmitigated disaster guy, yeah, and on a daily basis

dougthonus wrote:The Bulls need to do something very significant with Vuc that they wouldn't have done without Vuc this your or next or this trade will continue to go down as a train wreck. The Bulls record has masked how bad this trade has been to date.

That said, the Bulls are in position for Vuc to prove that this trade was a great trade in these playoffs this year and will likely have a similar opportunity next year. His improved play over the past two months is encouraging that maybe he can do that.

But you've seen enough of WCJ and Wagner this year to know that in 2 years they're both better than Vuc, and WCJ will be on a really reasonable contract as well for four years and Wagner for 3 more.

Disagree. Ive seen enough of wendel carter jr and his weak mind to know he will never be a high contributor to a good playoff team. Jury is still out on Wagner. Count me in the group that still thinks the trade was a huge win for the bulls.

Magic Vuc got to the playoffs twice and also twice had Top 10 defenses.

This 2022 version of Vuc is reminding me a lot of Laker Pau Gasol though in Pau's case he was the the PF but was the fulcrum of the triangle offense. I'm curious to see how he'll perform once all the core pieces return from injury.

no, we still need someone in that boozer role -- someone to project all of our anger, basketball related or not, onto.

Clint Eastwood wrote:

dougthonus wrote:The Bulls need to do something very significant with Vuc that they wouldn't have done without Vuc this your or next or this trade will continue to go down as a train wreck. The Bulls record has masked how bad this trade has been to date.

That said, the Bulls are in position for Vuc to prove that this trade was a great trade in these playoffs this year and will likely have a similar opportunity next year. His improved play over the past two months is encouraging that maybe he can do that.

But you've seen enough of WCJ and Wagner this year to know that in 2 years they're both better than Vuc, and WCJ will be on a really reasonable contract as well for four years and Wagner for 3 more.

Disagree. Ive seen enough of wendel carter jr and his weak mind to know he will never be a high contributor to a good playoff team. Jury is still out on Wagner. Count me in the group that still thinks the trade was a huge win for the bulls.

Vuc is still a trade that caused a few dominoes to fall in our favor, even regardless of his disappointing season. It signaled that Chicago was going to compete and not going to be suffering losses so 21 year old kids can get developmental minutes.

Without the Vuc trade, there's 100% no Derozan and maybe no Caruso either. Both guys were looking for winning situations. And both guys wanted to play in LA as a first option, we were lucky Pelinka was an idiot. Both guys were willing to play in LA for less than what they got in Chicago. The reality is that Chicago wasn't any better than the Sacramento Kings. Caruso was willing to take less to stay in LA because they were a contender, so obviously it wasn't just money he was after. If he thought Chicago was going to be the EC Kings again, there's a real chance he just signs elsewhere.

In some ways it reminds me of when Boston gave up a top 5 pick in one of the most hyped drafts of the decade to get a past his prime mid-30s Ray Allen, who only averaged about 17 & 3 for Boston. Arguably that was a terrible decision, worse than what the Bulls gave up. But KG said he had been constantly turning down the Boston trade proposals, and only changed his mind when he heard they got Ray Allen. He felt it meant that team was going all in. Ray never ended up throwing up huge #s for Boston, but he was important beyond his #s.

Similarly Vuc is an important domino. I'm 99% we don't get Derozan. Not when his first option was LA and he was also seriously talking to the Clippers. The fact that we were willing to pay a decent salary was obviously irrelevant, because both LA teams couldn't pay him much. No if DDR & AC had crystal balls and knew Vuc would have a terrible year, maybe they don't sign here. But they didn't, and they signed contracts.

But you tell those two guys "yeah, we're really all in on Wendell Carter and we plan on drafting Franz Wagner," I don't think that convinces anyone to sign in Chicago.

kodo wrote:Without the Vuc trade, there's 100% no Derozan and maybe no Caruso either. Both guys were looking for winning situations. And both guys wanted to play in LA as a first option, we were lucky Pelinka was an idiot. Both guys were willing to play in LA for less than what they got in Chicago. The reality is that Chicago wasn't any better than the Sacramento Kings. Caruso was willing to take less to stay in LA because they were a contender, so obviously it wasn't just money he was after. If he thought Chicago was going to be the EC Kings again, there's a real chance he just signs elsewhere.

So Caruso saying he didn't want to come here but came ONLY because LA wouldn't come close on the money is the evidence that convinces you that Vuc was the reason he came? I mean the dude literally said he came here because it was his best financial offer. Directly told you it was the money, and you have added that up to him wanting to come here due to Vuc?

DDR also said he wanted to go to either LA team but couldn't go to the lakers once they got Westbrook and wasn't willing to give up 72M to go to the Clippers even though he said he'd rather be on both, but again, you came away from that thinking it wasn't the money but it was Vuc?

The entire history of the NBA would point to it being money. The guys directly said it was the money. Yet somehow you are 99% certain it isn't the money. You are working awfully hard to try to fit facts into your preconceived ideas.

sco wrote:The question will be whether he reverts back when he doesn't have Ayo feeding him as much.

Hopefully we don't have to worry about that. Ayo has earned his playing time. I know it won't be plus 30 minutes a night anymore, but no reason he shouldn't still get 25.

If Vooch had Ayo at the beginning of the season and starting, would we have 3 All Stars?

dougthonus wrote:

kodo wrote:Without the Vuc trade, there's 100% no Derozan and maybe no Caruso either. Both guys were looking for winning situations. And both guys wanted to play in LA as a first option, we were lucky Pelinka was an idiot. Both guys were willing to play in LA for less than what they got in Chicago. The reality is that Chicago wasn't any better than the Sacramento Kings. Caruso was willing to take less to stay in LA because they were a contender, so obviously it wasn't just money he was after. If he thought Chicago was going to be the EC Kings again, there's a real chance he just signs elsewhere.

So Caruso saying he didn't want to come here but came ONLY because LA wouldn't come close on the money is the evidence that convinces you that Vuc was the reason he came? I mean the dude literally said he came here because it was his best financial offer. Directly told you it was the money, and you have added that up to him wanting to come here due to Vuc?

DDR also said he wanted to go to either LA team but couldn't go to the Lakers once they got Westbrook and wasn't willing to give up 72M to go to the Clippers even though he said he'd rather be on both, but again, you came away from that thinking it wasn't the money but it was Vuc?

The entire history of the NBA would point to it being money. The guys directly said it was the money. Yet somehow you are 99% certain it isn't the money. You are working awfully hard to try to fit facts into your preconceived ideas.

DDR and Caruso probably don't sign in LA for minimum. They probably would sign the bigger contract. But us without Vuc, they weren't signing here.

Don't give a sheet whether it's LA, Miami, Toronto, Cleveland if they didn't sign here. We'd have been stuck with WCJ and LM.

FriedRise wrote:If Vooch had Ayo at the beginning of the season and starting, would we have 3 All Stars?

I think Ayo is getting a bit too much credit for Vuc's recent play. I think he has helped no doubt, but I think Donovan is simply using Vuc better now. The Bulls had him lick and popping and being a spot ho shooter wayyy too often earlier in the year. He wasn't being utilized correctly.

dougthonus wrote:

kodo wrote:Without the Vuc trade, there's 100% no Derozan and maybe no Caruso either. Both guys were looking for winning situations. And both guys wanted to play in LA as a first option, we were lucky Pelinka was an idiot. Both guys were willing to play in LA for less than what they got in Chicago. The reality is that Chicago wasn't any better than the Sacramento Kings. Caruso was willing to take less to stay in LA because they were a contender, so obviously it wasn't just money he was after. If he thought Chicago was going to be the EC Kings again, there's a real chance he just signs elsewhere.

So Caruso saying he didn't want to come here but came ONLY because LA wouldn't come close on the money is the evidence that convinces you that Vuc was the reason he came? I mean the dude literally said he came here because it was his best financial offer. Directly told you it was the money, and you have added that up to him wanting to come here due to Vuc?

DDR also said he wanted to go to either LA team but couldn't go to the lakers once they got Westbrook and wasn't willing to give up 72M to go to the Clippers even though he said he'd rather be on both, but again, you came away from that thinking it wasn't the money but it was Vuc?

The entire history of the NBA would point to it being money. The guys directly said it was the money. Yet somehow you are 99% certain it isn't the money. You are working awfully hard to try to fit facts into your preconceived ideas.

I really don’t understand why it has to be one motive or the other. It’s most likely an “and” not “or” situation. The money clearly worked out better here than LA, and Demar has also disclosed Chicago got on his radar after the Vuc trade. They talked to each other.

Without Vuc (and Marc Eversley too), it’s possible Chicago never makes his short list of destinations to begin with no matter the money we offer. We call his agent & they say no thanks. It’s also possible AK doesn’t make a push for high end FAs if the Vuc deal never goes through because maybe we’re still a year off - and that’s a different hypothetical that likely has significant impacts for Zach resigning with the team.

Demar wanted to play for a team making a push. We know that. Before FA started he said his decision was going to be “all about winning”. Now obviously he’s not going to say “and money” even though we also now know that to be true. We have zero reason to believe his only options on the market were paycuts w/ either LA club or signing a fat contract with us.

The same can also be said about Caruso. We have no indication to believe his only two options were taking a lowball offer from LA or signing with us.

What’s so bad about believing that we not only had the money but were putting together the right plan that made us an attractive option for free agents looking to compete? All the evidence is there. I know you didn’t, and still don’t, like the Vucevic trade so I feel like you can be letting your own biases around the trade influence what you believe to be factors in how the team came together.

I have mixed feelings on the Vuc trade myself, mostly because I believe 2 unprotected FRP were too much for him (I don’t care much about WCJ). But I believe the trade set in motion a plan & changed the culture + intentions of the organization including for those looking on the outside. Again, there’s evidence to support that. Yeah we caught a break from LA’s incompetency, but the old “luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity” saying comes to mind. And I believe getting Vuc was a critical part of the preparation that opened up opportunities for us in the offseason.

Hell no, and I love the big fella, but he was playing like azz to start the season. He was getting plenty of touches in the paint, but was rushing his post shots and bricking point blank at the basket, it was ugly for a while. I do think he has Ayo to thank for making him look great again as Ayo has been finding him nearly every game since he’s been given PG duties. Vooch needs that, so hopefully Zo keeps that going when he gets back.

The thing is that this offense needs that hub center to make it work. WCJ (or Lauri) are just not capable of playing that role. Vuc does play that role fairly well but unfortunately his one major problem early on was that he could not hit a jumper to save his life. Then it got to his head and made it even worse when teams were just plain daring him to shoot. Probably one the coldest stretches, if not the coldest stretch he's had in his career.

Even in Jan/Feb, he's only shooting about 30% from 3, though the rest of he shooting has picked up significantly. If he can just put it all together towards the end here and have it carry over to the playoffs, he could be the x-factor that helps the team get further than expected.

Any know how to do it-what are his 2022 numbers?

pipfan wrote:Any know how to do it-what are his 2022 numbers?

Vuc is averaging 20.4/12/4/1/1.3 on 50/30/84 splits in the the last 24 games which takes us back to Jan 1 against WAS.

If you go back out to the past 40 games, he’s basically putting up the exact same line with a slight decrease in points.

Vuc has been out a slump for a while now honestly, pretty much since we restarted after our COVID pause in early December. The first game against the Lakers kicked off an entirely different season for him. It’s just that the games where he’s going 8/14, 8/15 for 17-20 points and 12-14 rebounds stay under the radar & accumulate over time.

We have a tendency to fixate on the absolute duds like the Memphis and Orlando games, and I’m not gonna lie he’s deserved his share of criticism with some truly low lows, but those games are an outlier now.

Vuc deserves a lot of credit for helping us tread water in the standings. His consistency has been like glue for the team.