Does Embiid even have the defense argument over Jokic now?

[TheAlchemist]

Jokic leads the league in defensive box plus minus, Embiid is 10th

Jokic is 4th in the NBA in defensive rating, Embiid is 10th

Jokic is 2nd in the NBA in defensive rebound %, Embiid is 6th (similar story for total rebounding % but there Embiid is 10th instead of 6th)

Jokic is a better defender than Embiid straight up, the only thing Embiid does at a higher rate is block shots but the 2.5 combined blocks and steals Embiid gets compared to Jokic's 2.2 steal and blocks is nothing compared to the solid defensive positioning and 2.7 more rebounds per game Jokic provides.

Jokic plays better defense than Embiid but just has less highlights that ESPN analyst can run or you can put on youtube. Positional defense doesn't look sexy.

Embiid IS a great defensive player though, he's just not as good on defense as Jokic is. He's at least a top 5 defensive Center in the league (too many to actually validate if that's true but he's right there with Jokic, Gobert, Bam, Rob Williams, ect).

From the eye test too, I was really surprised at how he is playing defence. Very mobile, very good in the post as a defender too.

[Cubbies2120]

Embiid is good in this respect as well but doesn't seem as invested in cleaning the defensive glass as in previous years.

Embiid could be a top rebounder in the NBA even without boxing out - I think it's effort personally, he saves himself too much for the offensive end. With his physical advantages he could be getting the boards Jokic is getting, but he's not.

Regarding the "Jokic fundamental rebounds" statement, 100% agree. Watch the game last night, a shot goes up, he's not looking to get position for the board, but he's looking for his man to box out first. Makes his job much easier instead of having to battle the more athletic jumpers for boards.

[cupcakesnake]

I can't get quite get there. Embiid just has so many natural advantages over Jokic in terms of mobility, size, and athleticism. That being said, I haven't been wildly impressed with Embiid's defense this year. There's a reason he isn't getting much DPOY hype this year and you can see the effort is not quite at his usual levels while he's reaching new heights as an offensive player. He doesn't look as dialed in on that end and he seems to be having more fun offensively. In the past, Embiid has always looked (by my eye) as a guy who loves to mash on defense, embarrass his opponents, guard the perimeter, block shots, just be dominant. I see him cutting more corners this year.

Jokic has been pretty dialed and maximizing his defensive impact. His defense is so ugly that he tricks you into thinking he's a stiff and slow backline guy, but he's very tricky and smart (much smarter than Embiid). Jokic loves to stunt (fake lunging at the ball to force the offensive player into making his decision too early), and he keeps guys away from the rim. He can get killed by floater specialists and midrange assassins, but in the Nuggets scheme he protects the hoop. I don't see as many blow bys this year.

I still think Jokic has some strategic weaknesses that Embiid just doesn't. No amount of IQ advantage by Joker can overcome Embiid's insane physical advantages. I think Embiid will dial it up to a level in the playoffs that is inaccessible to a non-jumper like Jokic. The Suns series is still fresh in my mind, when Jokic was just bombarded in his weakspot (the midrange). Embiid has way more flexibility to do different things on the defensive end. I'm taking Embiid everytime for defense, regardless if Jokic is beating him in terms of regular season production this year.

If the argument is that Embiid has more physical tools to play better defense then I think few will argue that point. But so far this season, there really isn't much objective evidence supporting that he actually is a better defender.

Jokic has the physical make-up of someone like Marc Gasol, who was a perennial DPOY contender. I think few would argue that Embiid is better than Gasol was on defense even though he has better physical tools.

Ya but Marc Gasol is one of the best defenders of all-time, had quicker feet, and longer arms. Gasol is the guy who routinely ruined EMbiid's life with his defense, despite being past his prime for most of their matchups.

We already know that Jokic's defensive stats are better than Embiid's this year, that's what this thread is basically about. But I think it's naive to think that Jokic will offer more high level impact than Embiid in the playoffs when things dial up. It's like saying that Jayson Tatum or Robert Covinton is a better defender than Kawhi Leonard because look at the metrics! Then the games start mattering and holy crap Kawhi is changing a series with elite defense clearly beyond most of his peers.

I'm fine with saying the Jokic is having a better defensive season than Embiid. I'm a big fan of Joker and a mild Embiid hater overall. But we've seen in tons of other season that Embiid is capable of massive defensive impact, where Jokic is a more subtle case study.

[Funcrusher]

Embiid is good in this respect as well but doesn't seem as invested in cleaning the defensive glass as in previous years.

Embiid could be a top rebounder in the NBA even without boxing out - I think it's effort personally, he saves himself too much for the offensive end. With his physical advantages he could be getting the boards Jokic is getting, but he's not.

Regarding the "Jokic fundamental rebounds" statement, 100% agree. Watch the game last night, a shot goes up, he's not looking to get position for the board, but he's looking for his man to box out first. Makes his job much easier instead of having to battle the more athletic jumpers for boards.

Yeah honestly I wish Embiid would slim down to his rookie weight. I know his conditioning has improved this year but he still seems to get gassed relatively easily which is why even now his minutes load isn't big (Jokic doesn't carry s huge minutes load either but generally plays more games)

[dhsilv2]

And that's fine, but when you look at both of their numbers when ON the court, Nuggets defensive rating is better.

And that's despite Embiid having the luxury of playing with a DPOY caliber wing in Thybulle (Thybulle is the 2nd favorite wing to win DPOY, behind only Bridges).

So, Embiid has another DPOY caliber player, but the defensive rating is worse than Jokic's defensive rating. If Embiid is better than Jokic defensively, and Thybulle is better than anyone else on the Nuggets defensively, what makes Jokic's defensive rating better? Does Denver have some hidden DPOY caliber players?

Is anyone worse on the nuggets than Curry defensively? You start with how had are the bad defenders. not how good are the best defenders.

Curry's not with the Sixers anymore. Then again they do have Harden now

I think harden's a much better defender than curry...but this year's data is based on mostly play with curry

[Funcrusher]

Is anyone worse on the nuggets than Curry defensively? You start with how had are the bad defenders. not how good are the best defenders.

Curry's not with the Sixers anymore. Then again they do have Harden now

I think harden's a much better defender than curry...but this year's data is based on mostly play with curry

I think Harden is better off-ball (where he really shines defensively) and he has an obvious size advantage but teams (like Brooklyn) routinely target Harden in pnr and they usually get whatever they want unless a team (like the rockets or brooklyn last year) has the personnel to just switch everything. Curry is ok as far as awareness/rotating off ball but he just doesn't have the physical tools to be effective at the point of attack. so honestly this is me just saying I think their both negatives but the chasm isn't large in either direction

[vulture]

The biggest argument in favor of Embiid over Jokic around these circles has traditionally been about defense. But after watching the game last night where the Nets just torched Philly, I was wondering if that's still the case so I dug up some numbers from NBA WOWY.

Philly is posting the exact same DRTG as the Nuggets while the Nuggets are posting a better DRTG when Jokic is on the floor compared to Philly when Embiid is on. Moreover, the Nuggets are worse on defense when Jokic is off compared to Philly when Embiid's off:

Nuggets DRTG: 110
Philly DRTG: 110

Nuggets DRTG when Jokic on: 108
Nuggets DRTG when Jokic off: 112

Philly DRTG when Embiid on: 109
Philly DRTG when Embiid off: 111

I also checked BBall Index's LEBRON all-in-one stat and here's there D-Lebron:

Jokic: 2.11
Embiid: 1.95

(For reference, Gobert's at 3.25)

So is this argument even all that clear cut anymore? If anything, numbers argue in favor of Jokic being better on defense.

Jokic has definitely been better than Embiid defensively this year but don't use Defensive Rating to make that point. Defensive rating is in the context of the team and not an individual stat.

Let's keep that in mind.

[dhsilv2]

Agreed that Jokic has worse defenders around him than Embiid does and it probably skews his defensive impact numbers up. But the Nuggets are also performing better on defense when Jokic is on the floor than Philly is with Embiid on the floor.

What I'm saying is that the guy replacing Embiid vs Jokic is worse for the nuggets than 76ers

I like Jamychal Green and Zeke Nnaji more than Deandre Jordan, Paul Millsap, Will Cauley-Stein, and the young guys (Reed and Bassey). I know they had Drummond there all season so he's the one in the numbers, and he was holding up solidly there.

I know more about Nnaji's offense than his defense, but Jamychal Green is gritty in the paint and has some switchability. Jeff Green has played there some in small-ball lineups as well.

I think going forward we might see some shifts in this...the trade did change things a bit for philly. That said I think you earlier mentioned you think there's a lack of focus on defense for Embiid this year and yeah that passes the eye and stats test imo too. He certainly can turn it up in a way Jokic can't.

[dhsilv2]

Curry's not with the Sixers anymore. Then again they do have Harden now

I think harden's a much better defender than curry...but this year's data is based on mostly play with curry

I think Harden is better off-ball (where he really shines defensively) and he has an obvious size advantage but teams (like Brooklyn) routinely target Harden in pnr and they usually get whatever they want unless a team (like the rockets or brooklyn last year) has the personnel to just switch everything. Curry is ok as far as awareness/rotating off ball but he just doesn't have the physical tools to be effective at the point of attack. so honestly this is me just saying I think their both negatives but the chasm isn't large in either direction

harden has to be used correctly and to be fair....I don't think doc has a clue how to use him and Embiid...and I don't either. But Harden remains a really good post defender, rebounds well, and has that size. But yeah you put him one on one with a scorer outside and YUCK.

[SelfishPlayer]

The formula used to create those numbers, does it account for any differences in the individual teams played to date or even perhaps who was injured or load managing at the time?

[BK_2020]

The formula used to create those numbers, does it account for any differences in the individual teams played to date or even perhaps who was injured or load managing at the time?

There's no need to be so granular. Those small variances will even out over hundreds of games. The fact is, Jokic, except one outlier season, has been an exceptional defender per on/off numbers, although not at the level of Embiid. But the difference is more like Embiid in the high 90s percentile vs. Jokic in the high 80s percentile.

[DonaldSanders]

And that's despite Embiid having the luxury of playing with a DPOY caliber wing in Thybulle (Thybulle is the 2nd favorite wing to win DPOY, behind only Bridges).

So, Embiid has another DPOY caliber player, but the defensive rating is worse than Jokic's defensive rating. If Embiid is better than Jokic defensively, and Thybulle is better than anyone else on the Nuggets defensively, what makes Jokic's defensive rating better? Does Denver have some hidden DPOY caliber players?

Thybulle is getting overrated, reminds me of The Great Avery Bradley. Great man to man defense is good but doesn't tell the whole defensive story. I watch the game and while Thybulle is good, he doesn't seem to have a big impact on the game. You watch Gobert, Green, heck even Giannis sometimes controls the game on D when he really focuses.

While he's a good defensive player I think he benefits more from having Embiid in the center than vice versa. He couldn't do anything to stop anyone on the Nets, he might as well have been any random guard in the league last night.

[GeorgeMarcus]

I've been on team Jokic as a solid defender for a long time, but he's not on Embiid's level

[GeorgeMarcus]

No.

He's worse than Jokic on both ends. Just doesn't have the mental fortitude to be as good...

You ain't said nuffin when I confronted you with the truth about Embiid playoff data a week or 2 ago, but you're steady trying to breathe life into that narrative. He was pretty much the only one who stepped up for us last night too with 27 and 12

[AussieCeltic]

Embiids defense at the rim is potentially the best in the league but he can be exploited on pick and rolls by any above average pick and roll players.

Sixers have to play drop coverage as Embiid just can’t defend playing up and they still get burned by any decent player. KD and Kyrie made a living off it yesterday.

[AussieCeltic]

And that's despite Embiid having the luxury of playing with a DPOY caliber wing in Thybulle (Thybulle is the 2nd favorite wing to win DPOY, behind only Bridges).

So, Embiid has another DPOY caliber player, but the defensive rating is worse than Jokic's defensive rating. If Embiid is better than Jokic defensively, and Thybulle is better than anyone else on the Nuggets defensively, what makes Jokic's defensive rating better? Does Denver have some hidden DPOY caliber players?

Thybulle is getting overrated, reminds me of The Great Avery Bradley. Great man to man defense is good but doesn't tell the whole defensive story. I watch the game and while Thybulle is good, he doesn't seem to have a big impact on the game. You watch Gobert, Green, heck even Giannis sometimes controls the game on D when he really focuses.

While he's a good defensive player I think he benefits more from having Embiid in the center than vice versa. He couldn't do anything to stop anyone on the Nets, he might as well have been any random guard in the league last night.

Wings defenders just can’t impact the game as much as a good defensive C. But to say he’s overrated it crazy. Look at what he did on the Australian Olympic team. He looked like the best defensive player in basketball history.

Also it’s a bit hard for him to make an impact when Harden, Harris, Maxey were getting absolutely destroyed off the dribble which had Thybulle scrambling all game.

[eyeatoma]

This thread is laughable. Every time Embiid has a bad game, his haters come crawling out of the woodwork. Take a look at Jokic's defense in the playoffs, and compare it to Embiid's if you want to see what impact Embiid makes on defense. Embiid's defense is better than Gobert's in the playoffs, and Gobert is widely considered one of the greatest defenders of all time.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/joel-embiid-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year

Joel Embiid had a defensive rating of 101, 100, 110, and 104 in the last 4 years in the playoffs

Jokic

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jokic-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year#:~:text=Nikola%20Jokic%20had%20a%20defensive%20rating%20of%20108.8%20in%202018%2D19.

Defensive rating of 108, 112 and 120.

Also, if you want to talk about impact, look at their plus minus in the playoffs.

Embiid last 4 years

+43, +143, -53 and +121

Jokic last 3 years

+84, -14, -87

I wonder who is not in the same league looking at these numbers...

Compare Embiid's defensive rating to Gobert's in the playoffs, who is widely considered a generational defender...

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/gobert-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year

Gobert's were 104, 103, 105, 115, and 117.

So Gobert is not as good in the playoffs, especially in the last two years, and Embiid's best years, is comparable to one of the best defenders of all time in the playoffs.


As for this season, Jokic has improved considerably, but is probably a slightly above average defender now. Not in the same realm as Embiid though.

[DonaldSanders]

And that's despite Embiid having the luxury of playing with a DPOY caliber wing in Thybulle (Thybulle is the 2nd favorite wing to win DPOY, behind only Bridges).

So, Embiid has another DPOY caliber player, but the defensive rating is worse than Jokic's defensive rating. If Embiid is better than Jokic defensively, and Thybulle is better than anyone else on the Nuggets defensively, what makes Jokic's defensive rating better? Does Denver have some hidden DPOY caliber players?

Thybulle is getting overrated, reminds me of The Great Avery Bradley. Great man to man defense is good but doesn't tell the whole defensive story. I watch the game and while Thybulle is good, he doesn't seem to have a big impact on the game. You watch Gobert, Green, heck even Giannis sometimes controls the game on D when he really focuses.

While he's a good defensive player I think he benefits more from having Embiid in the center than vice versa. He couldn't do anything to stop anyone on the Nets, he might as well have been any random guard in the league last night.

Wings defenders just can’t impact the game as much as a good defensive C. But to say he’s overrated it crazy. Look at what he did on the Australian Olympic team. He looked like the best defensive player in basketball history.

Also it’s a bit hard for him to make an impact when Harden, Harris, Maxey were getting absolutely destroyed off the dribble which had Thybulle scrambling all game.

Thanks for proving my point.

[Karate Diop]

No.

He's worse than Jokic on both ends. Just doesn't have the mental fortitude to be as good...

You ain't said nuffin when I confronted you with the truth about Embiid playoff data a week or 2 ago, but you're steady trying to breathe life into that narrative. He was pretty much the only one who stepped up for us last night too with 27 and 12

He was a -30 last night fam... I'll dig up your playoff post though. I 'ppreciate someone who puts thought into their arguments.

[eyeatoma]

No.

He's worse than Jokic on both ends. Just doesn't have the mental fortitude to be as good...

You ain't said nuffin when I confronted you with the truth about Embiid playoff data a week or 2 ago, but you're steady trying to breathe life into that narrative. He was pretty much the only one who stepped up for us last night too with 27 and 12

He was a -30 last night fam... I'll dig up your playoff post though. I 'ppreciate someone who puts thought into their arguments.

The entire team was ass, and he was in the game when they were stinking it up. He was the only thing keeping the Sixers from losing by 50.