colts18 wrote:MyUniBroDavis wrote:Saying 2016 lebron is a better playmaker than 2013 lebron and would generally pull the trigger more on windows the 2013 version would hesitate on is valid.
Posting about “all time postseason offenses” is valid because it was an all time postseason offense lmfao.
No one is saying that 2013 lebron is trash on offense while 2016 lebron is a god. Acting as if there is some sort of absurd separation between the two on that end isn’t true either.
On a factual basis offensively 2016 lebron did better against worse competition. But acting as if the Warriors are easy to score against without bogus when we’ve seen how good their team defense is when they actually try or that the hawks because al horford is their center arent a 2nd ranked defense isn’t fair. Nor is ignoring the fact that the refs were swallowing their whistles for lebron that year, unless you believe him being league average in ftr that playoffs despite him attempting more of his shots in the paint than any other playoff year makes sense (and if you want to argue that spacing caused him to collapse into the defense less, it doesn’t make sense that it rose again the next year).
There’s nothing against him, given that this was before the 5 out pace and space era exploded for him, having an offensive ATG playoff run in 2016. We see him do this for a longer period of time post all star break, shooting for the team not as hot but team offense still better than the Warriors that year with Curry.
You can say, oh lebron only struggled more in 2013 because he was in a harder situations, while that doesn’t change that he struggled it is valid.
To say that lebron was better and picking his spots and running the offense in his latter years is also valid.
But the idea it’s blasphemous to put more stock into the guy that actually did it, when that guy himself called himself incomplete during that first Miami run when he was 27 (obv he was 28 in 2013 but still)
Calling on 2017 makes no sense here, since I think most people that argue 2016 as his peak have 2017 as his offensive peak lol, and prolly his peak level of play.
It’s fine to say 2013 lebron could do so, even if I don’t necessarily agree.
Acting as if it’s unreasonable to have 2016 bron because they don’t believe in your hypothetical is weird.
People saying that wades health stopped him from getting 70+ wins are building a bit of a straw man for me. If he won 72 games that doesn’t change the fact that I think one was better in the playoffs lol. The gap between 15 and 16 wins in the playoffs is infinitely bigger than 57 and 73 wins lol
I think 2016 lebron was better on defense in the playoffs, iq quarterbacking all of that, as far as I know no ones really made a convincing argument otherwise
A few points:
1. 2013 LeBron averaged MORE assists than 2016 LeBron. The idea he was a better playmaker in 2016 is absurd. The only difference is that JR, Kyrie were hitting their when LeBron passed them the ball compared to Wade or Battier missing. There is zero difference in playmaking between the years. I can buy that LeBron's shooting, postgame, or driving game differed between years but the idea that he declined as a passer or playmaker in Miami is absurd. He was always an all-time level passer. He had a career high in Assists in 2010 with the Cavs. It's dumb to think LeBron was great at playmaking for the Cavs 1st stint, then declined in vision in Miami, then went back up in Cavs 2nd stint. The only difference is he had different roles all 3 times.
2. Free Throw attempts. 2013 LeBron suffered more from a lack of Free throw calls. This was Peak Roy Hibbert verticality era where the Refs swallowed their whistles any time Hibbert jumped in the air. Then they did the same in the finals. The Heat had the fewest Free Throw Attempts in a 7 game series in History. Not just Finals, but all playoffs. They weren't getting a call all playoffs.
3. 2016 was the beginning of the pace and space era. The Cavs shot 30 3 Pointers per game while the Heat shot 20 3 Pointer per game. The difference in 3 Point attempts per game (10) is bigger than the difference in 3 point attempts between the 2013 Heat (20) and the 1998 Bulls (13) who had no notable 3 point shooters on the roster outside of Steve Kerr's 2 3PA/game. The difference in basketball in 2016 was huge compared to even just a few years earlier.
4. 2013 LeBron was just as good in the playoffs defensively considering he had a bigger load. The Heat's defensive scheme was much more demanding physically. He had to cover up a ton of holes because of Wade's injuries and Bosh's poor defense. He also had more rebounding responsibility because the Heat were a smaller team getting killed on the boards by the bigger Pacers and Spurs.
It's easier to look good defensively when your main cover is Andre Iguodala or Draymond Green. He can easily roam around looking like help defense menace. He can't do the same vs. Paul George or Tony Parker. They will kill you if you leave them open. 2016 LeBron has no shot staying in front of Peak Tony Parker who was averaging 22 PPG in the Western Conference playoffs.
1. Are you implying he was as good a passer/floor general in first stint cavs than second stint? I mean, that’s just not true, and I don’t really think that’s a position I need to defend lol. There’s more to playmaking/being a floor general than turnover numbers or assist percentage.
Saying it’s absurd he was a better playmaker or running the offense in his second Cleveland stint when that’s probably a majority opinion.
2. Sure, I agree that there were missed calls in 2013 as well,but which year was the outlier in ftr? It’s fair to say that calls have been against him for awhile, probably since after he left Cleveland the first time the whistle has been a bit unkind to him, and especially since he went to LA, but the playoff run it’s an outlier among those years is in 2016.
3. The evidence points to very strong perimeter defender in 2013 vs near DPOY type defender in 2016, and not just in the playoffs. lebron was in the 90th percentile as an iso defender for both RS and playoffs, 2013 lebron was in the 50th-60th percentile in both of I remember. Sure some of that might be matchups but that’s substantial gap, so him not being able to stay in front doesn’t make sense, 2015 he was hurt so it didn’t show as much but he slimmed down from his Miami run anyways.
Your arguments defensively apply far more to 2020 Lebron, who also graded out better than 2013 lebron in a similar fashion, and even then they’re dubious at best because that’s the same logic you could use to say iggy>draymond on defense.
The idea that there’s no difference between Miami bron and later lebrons isn’t true, the man himself said he “hadn’t scratched the surface, didn’t know his game.”
Your points would be more valid if we were comparing him to 2020 lebron, that’s not the case.
1.
He was a better playmaker and floor general in his second Cleveland stint compared to his first Cleveland stint and Miami bron, that’s not really something people dispute, no one is disagreeing that he was already a ATG playmaker beforehand. Let’s not act like this is an absurd take lol, that his bball iq increased from his 6th nba season to his 13th one
2.
There was a clear issue with fouls in 2016, similar to the one he has today. This does not mean it wasn’t an issue in his Miami years as well compared to his first Cleveland stint, but his 2016 season as a whole is a clear outlier until he goes to the Lakers where now he can’t buy a call
3.
I can agree he was a better defender in the 2013 RS. Realistically there isn’t much evidence supporting that but sure. I think his defense in the playoffs of 2016 was better.
Could 2013 lebron do what 2016 lebron did in defense? Yeah maybe, or maybe 2016 lebron was a smarter defender and read plays better and generally broke them up, although he didn’t get as much highlight blocks (untill the finals of course) so he was a more effective defender. This doesn’t mean 2013 lebron was an idiot that couldn’t tell who was dribbling the ball lol, he obviously also had a great defensive iq.
I’d rather take the guy that did it than the guy that might do it hypothetically
Using this logic 2018 lebron is the best lebron ever, he faced strong defenses and absolutely dominated all of them while teams weren’t respecting his shooters and packing the paint often untill playing a series with a messed up hand, if he had a better offensive cast he would have probably been an even more effective playmaker since he had to force things up at times, also defensively he wasn’t good over the series but that’s because of the load he carried if he had a normal offensive cast he would have been DPOY
I agree 2016 lebron had more spacing which led to him leading a stronger offense and scoring more effeciently at the paint, and 2013 lebron had a tougher situation in this regard.
Their performances don’t reflect 2013 lebron being a million times better, one did better in a easier situation, one did worse in a more difficult one
