Why BALL HOGS never win a chamionchip?

[JN61]

So the conclusion of the list is that stacked teams win you championships, got ya

The point is that these players teams played only two time in the Finals from 60/70 attempts…and teams like Nash Dal/PHO, Westbrook OKC, Harden OKC/HOU/PHI/BKN, Paul LAC/HOU/PHO were capable to win it all. Even before DAL/GSW matchup this year, DAL had very good odds to win it all.

You do realize that all these players have had tremendous playoff success even if they haven't won the ultimate goal. Paul probably the weakest record in this scenario but he is also barely 6 feet and have had quite middle of pack talent on his teams. Westbrook made every hear to west finals with Durant when they were even remotely healthy. Harden put up a fight vs one of all time great teams, even if he have had playoff blunders and Nash dragged bunch of average players deep into the playoffs multiple times just to be beaten by even greater players with greater teams.

Let's be realistic. Neither Curry or Bryant would have any rings if they were drafted by teams like Wizards and Cavs. We saw it with LeBron, he had to leave to get rings and he is undoubtedly among 3 greatest players to ever play this game.

At least use proper statistics to signal players are ball Hogs like dribbles per possession or time holding the basketball... Stat you use tells us nothing but in what kind of system these players played on and if they played like SG or as a PG since naturally playmakers get less of their points assisted than a player who plays like a shooting guard.

[Archx]

I leave here % of FG Ast'd per PO career for TOP perimeter players. You can draw your own conclusions.

1. Paul .135
2. Doncic .135
3. Nash .204
4. Westbrook .213
5. Harden .229

6. Wade .291
7. Lebron .326
8. Kobe .349
9. Curry .409
10. Kidd .447

What is this saying again? Kobe is the biggest ball hog on the list and he won multiple champion shops.

don't you know the numbers?

Funny you're asking him this question when you yourself have no clue what kind of data you're reading. And this data provides you with ZERO clues if a guy is ball hogging or not. This data only shows you on how many direct assists someone scores. It has nothing to do if someone is selfish or not. You would have to check multiple different metrics and compare them and then draw some kind of conclusion but this is the absolutely wrong one to begin with.

[Lalouie]

your top5 had lesser teammates than 6-10

and lebron is a ball hog

or howz about only one team per year gets to win a ring

or doncic is in his 3rd year and lebron/mj didn't win until their peak

[rand]

As others have noted, FGs assisted % is not a good way to measure being a ballhog. The best simple statistical method (ie can be easily calculated just by looking at BBRef) I think is USG + AST%.

[tsherkin]

I leave here % of FG Ast'd per PO career for TOP perimeter players. You can draw your own conclusions.

1. Paul .135
2. Doncic .135
3. Nash .204
4. Westbrook .213
5. Harden .229

6. Wade .291
7. Lebron .326
8. Kobe .349
9. Curry .409
10. Kidd .447

So, anyone sensible understands that this doesn't actually describe ball hogs. Certainly, it identifies guys who are at point of attack a lot, but that's not the same thing. It's also a really limited analysis in terms of titles, because several of those guys were really close to winning titles and some of them got screwed by injuries or bad refs or what have you. Also, Doncic is in his fourth season, so it's sort of inappropriate to toss him in here when he hasn't played on a title-caliber team to date in his career. Moreover, you've included Kidd, who didn't win until he was a tertiary player on the 2011 Mavs.

The basic construction of this post is all off for good discourse. JN61 beat me to it, but if what you're actually looking to do is describe "ball-hogging," then you're better off looking at time of possession and how much time someone spends dribbling... and even then, it won't be all that great. You'd still want to cross-reference with inefficient scoring and usage rate and so forth.

[JN61]

your top5 had lesser teammates than 6-10

and lebron is a ball hog

2020 finals Lebron: 8.1s avg time of possession (5th highest in the playoffs)
2018 finals Lebron: 11.5 (2nd highest overall in the playoffs, his finals avg by far highest, nobody else even close)
17 finals: 8.2 (10th overall in the playoffs, finals avg 8th overall)
16: 7.9 (12th overall)
15: 12.2 (2nd highest in the playoffs, finals avg by far highest in the playoffs, nobody even sniffs these numbers)
14: 6.5 (15th, only time he didnt dominate the ball)


And with Lebron one has to remember he didnt play as a PG so his time of possession mainly comes from other players passing him the ball when other ball dominant players are purely PGs from these statistics, who bring on the ball with them.


We don't have ability to filter available based on time remaining on the shotclock in this category but I would put a lot of money Lebron is top 3 every year on these lists if you only count last 16 seconds of the shotclock on this calculation. Major indication of this is average dribbles per touch. Which majorly jumps players who just bring on the ball up the court. Several literal nobody guards who just set up traditional offenses are on top of this list. However James sinks on this list because historically he doesn't bring ball that often compared to actual PGs.

[mulamutti]

A ball hog is not someone who doesn't get assisted. That's a false premise to begin with. I assume that's why the OP didn't include the data set he hand picked from.

A ball hog is someone who takes more shots than they should, with the word "should" being totally subjective. Let me know when you have a stat for that.

Not that, but more someone who holds onto the ball too much during an offensive position. Someone who takes more shots than they should is someone who’s a poor shooter or takes bad shots.

[TwitterFingers]

Kobe won 5 of them as a ball hog. He was an elite passer when he wanted to be or an elite ISO scorer when he wanted to be, but rarely ever balanced both

Jordan won 6. Could his style have won a championship in today’s era? Interesting question

[SpreeS]

Oh my oh my... I could it call more nicely "BALL DOMINANCE" if you want it. And this data shows exactly what about I talking here. I could give all other related data, but it only confirms my statment. Now about championships

1. Why did Paul/Harden played only two years together?
2. Why did Westbrook/Harden played only one season in HOU?
3. Why did KD leave Westbrook?
4. Why did Brunson leave Doncic?
5. Why did Kawhi pick George over Westbrook to LAC?
6. Why did Paul left every team with bad circumstances and now with Ayton in PHO something happened between these two?

How do you want to build championship team around these players?

[Ein Sof]

As others have noted, FGs assisted % is not a good way to measure being a ballhog. The best simple statistical method (ie can be easily calculated just by looking at BBRef) I think is USG + AST%.

Your post is almost the opposite of what's true lol

USG% & AST% have nothing to do with ballhogging

OTOH, a low FG assisted% means you're taking your sweet time putting up shots

[Ein Sof]

Kobe won 5 of them as a ball hog. He was an elite passer when he wanted to be or an elite ISO scorer when he wanted to be, but rarely ever balanced both

Jordan won 6. Could his style have won a championship in today’s era?

Of course???

[druggas]

Where's Magic Johnson?

[SpreeS]

data started from 96/97 season

[iserp]

If these players don't get assisted ... aren't their teammates the ballhogs?

[Raps in 4]

I leave here % of FG Ast'd per PO career for TOP perimeter players. You can draw your own conclusions.

1. Paul .135
2. Doncic .135
3. Nash .204
4. Westbrook .213
5. Harden .229

6. Wade .291
7. Lebron .326
8. Kobe .349
9. Curry .409
10. Kidd .447

This doesn't show what you think it shows. Of course pass-first PGs will have less of their shots assisted. They initiate the offence.

[dk1115]

Where is kd?

[Pachinko_]

No player runs faster than a pass.

[Pennebaker]

don't you know the number?

I don't know what you're talking about. It would be nice if you provided a link to the data you're citing then there would be no confusion and we could better understand the full context.

Man, this data is available for many many years on BB-RF.COM with shooting data. They offer only separate Ast’d 2P and 3P, I counted total assisted FG.

So what's your complaint? What is the conclusion that you've drawn?

[SpreeS]

I leave here % of FG Ast'd per PO career for TOP perimeter players. You can draw your own conclusions.

1. Paul .135
2. Doncic .135
3. Nash .204
4. Westbrook .213
5. Harden .229

6. Wade .291
7. Lebron .326
8. Kobe .349
9. Curry .409
10. Kidd .447

This doesn't show what you think it shows. Of course pass-first PGs will have less of their shots assisted. They initiate the offence.

It shows exactly what I think. Whole offence goes through these players only to one direction. There is no feedback in these situations.

[GiannisAnte34]

Kobe won 5 of them as a ball hog. He was an elite passer when he wanted to be or an elite ISO scorer when he wanted to be, but rarely ever balanced both

Jordan won 6. Could his style have won a championship in today’s era? Interesting question

of course his style could win, he would obviously be a 3 pt shooter in todays league and he would put up even more ridiculous PPG