replace stockton with prime isiah. do they beat the bulls

[garrick]

That Jazz team was pretty weak and made it to the finals after the decline of the Western conference powerhouses like Seattle, Phoenix and Houston in the mid 90's.

They would have had to have had major upgrades on their roster besides Stockton and Malone in order to beat the prime Bulls if you ask me.

Stockton was a solid PG but he was never a huge scoring threat and Hornacek was a good SG but also similar to Stockton wasn't going to explode on offense.

[JordansBulls]

That Jazz team was pretty weak and made it to the finals after the decline of the Western conference powerhouses like Seattle, Phoenix and Houston in the mid 90's.

They would have had to have had major upgrades on their roster besides Stockton and Malone in order to beat the prime Bulls if you ask me.

Stockton was a solid PG but he was never a huge scoring threat and Hornacek was a good SG but also similar to Stockton wasn't going to explode on offense.

That Jazz team beat Hakeem/Barkley/Drexler, Duncan/Robinson, Shaq/Kobe/Van Exel/Jones.

[Antinomy]

Zeke whipped Jordan’s ass 3 years in a row & only lost in 91 because the team had broken down + injuries.
.

The Pistons beat the Bulls 3 years in a row, but Isiah didn't have a standout series against Jordan. I can't see any argument for Isiah outplaying Jordan in any of those series. The Pistons were simply a much better team until they weren't anymore (1991 when Pippen and Grant were busting out as stars).

Jordan wasn’t in his prime anymore post-1996.

As proven earlier in his career, Jordan can be beaten when matched up against an elite team.

I think prime Zeke + Dumars gives the Jazz a much better chance, especially with Pippen playing hurt.

[JordansBulls]

Zeke whipped Jordan’s ass 3 years in a row & only lost in 91 because the team had broken down + injuries.
.

The Pistons beat the Bulls 3 years in a row, but Isiah didn't have a standout series against Jordan. I can't see any argument for Isiah outplaying Jordan in any of those series. The Pistons were simply a much better team until they weren't anymore (1991 when Pippen and Grant were busting out as stars).

Jordan wasn’t in his prime anymore post-1996.

As proven earlier in his career, Jordan can be beaten when matched up against an elite team.

I think prime Zeke + Dumars gives the Jazz a much better chance, especially with Pippen playing hurt.

That Jazz team already went thru: Hakeem/Barkley/Drexler, Duncan/Robinson, Shaq/Kobe/Van Exel/Jones.

Lebron at his peak struggled against an old Duncan and was down with 30 seconds left in a game 6 at home until the coach made a dumb move.

[turnaroundJ]

Isiah =! Isaiah

[Diop]

Malone hurting his injured hand in 97 sealed that series. He never shot the same after that

[Antinomy]

The Pistons beat the Bulls 3 years in a row, but Isiah didn't have a standout series against Jordan. I can't see any argument for Isiah outplaying Jordan in any of those series. The Pistons were simply a much better team until they weren't anymore (1991 when Pippen and Grant were busting out as stars).

Jordan wasn’t in his prime anymore post-1996.

As proven earlier in his career, Jordan can be beaten when matched up against an elite team.

I think prime Zeke + Dumars gives the Jazz a much better chance, especially with Pippen playing hurt.

That Jazz team already went thru: Hakeem/Barkley/Drexler, Duncan/Robinson, Shaq/Kobe/Van Exel/Jones.

Lebron at his peak struggled against an old Duncan and was down with 30 seconds left in a game 6 at home until the coach made a dumb move.

Where the hell did Lebron come from in this discussion?

Very poor attempt at deflecting.

[jazzed77]

since we're in the middle of the summer and things are slow, what do you guys think:

replace stockton with prime isaiah. do they beat the bulls ?

i say yes. IT was more of a scorer and would get you buckets when needed. we saw him drop 25+ on showtime on 1 ankle the year right before he started winning

I think if past his prime Stockton played more than usual in the finals they might have won. Sloan never adjusted his rotation even with a championship on the line.

[JN61]

Yes. IT steps up on the big stage and especially against the Bulls.

Uhm no? Your statement isn't based on the realities.
In 88 in eastern semi finals vs Bulls Thomas averaged stats of:
20.4 PPG, 4 trb 10.4 ast
Shooting:
40.2% fg, 16.7 3pt, 86.1 ft.

In 89 in eastern finals vs Bulls Thomas averaged stats of:
20.7 PPG, 5 trb, 7.8 ast, 2.3 stl
On shooting numbers of:
39% fg, 16.7% 3pt and 73.2% FT

In 90 in East finals vs Bulls:
17.6 PPG, 6.1 trb, 8.6 ast, 2.9 stl
Shooting:
39.6 fg, 33.3 3pt, 83.3 ft

In 91:
16.5 PPG, 4.8 trb, 6 ast, 1 stl
Shooting:
40.7 fg%, 25 3pt%, 72.4 ft%


All of his series vs bulls he shot really poorly and only really in 88 he had anywhere near his career averages in the playoffs. Thomas wasn't the guy who beat the bulls. He had really good serie in 90 in the finals but his other finals are very much even bellow average in comparison for an all-star player

[JN61]

Karl Malone would get the ball less, and Jordan/Pippen/Harper would force IT into bad shots, so the Bulls would win 4-0.

Most likely scenario. There is huge evidence that Thomas didn't play that well vs bulls defense combine the fact that Malone wasn't that effective in the playoffs. Now mix in him getting even worse looks from Thomas and Malone's impact takes small hit as well.

[JN61]

Zeke whipped Jordan’s ass 3 years in a row & only lost in 91 because the team had broken down + injuries.

Jazz were horrible outside of Stockton & Malone, so Zeke alone wouldn’t swing it.

Maybe if I’m allowed to swap out Hornacek for Joe Dumars too.

Pistons did like laimbeer and Mahorn. Not Thomas alone. See my breakdown above.

[OdomFan]

Do they beat the Bulls? I don't think they even beat the Rockets in 1997, or Lakers in 1998.

That's the problem with these type of threads. The OP just makes the team with the replaced player automatically/magically still get to the Finals without any explanation. In the NBA Playoffs, those other rounds still matter.

John Stockton was a key part of that Jazz offense, and duo with Malone. So No you can not just replace him with any other All time great and expect them to just still be just as good.

[Collymore]

Absolutely **** not.

Stockton could not do what isiah did not could the bulls even DREAM of shutting Isiah down in the same pressing fashion they did Stockton in the finals.

Edit: i read that as replace isiah with Stockton onnthe pistons.

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[cam24thomas]

Jordan shot .481 from the field vs. Detroit in the playoffs (22 games), for 30.0 points, 6.7 rebounds, 6.1 assists.
Jordan shot .487 from the field and 33.4 points in his playoff career, and 6.4 rebounds, 5.7 assists.
Not a big difference, considering that Detroit were supposed to be the best at defending Jordan.
And I'm sure if we look at every team Jordan faced in the playoffs, we'll find some that he did worse than 30ppg and 48% shooting.
Also Jordan didn't have a big series in 1991 when Chicago beat Detroit 4-0, he scored 29.8 points, 5.3 rebounds, 7.0 assists.

[Kvothe22]

If they did not win with Stockton why the fk would they win with Isaiah?

[og15]

Replace Stockton with prime Stockton, do they beat the Bulls?

Yes. IT steps up on the big stage and especially against the Bulls.

Isiah has some good games and series', but his team also played against the Bulls when they were a much weaker team than when the Jazz played them.

Here are his series':
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1988-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-bulls-vs-pistons.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1989-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-pistons.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1990-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-pistons.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-eastern-conference-finals-pistons-vs-bulls.html

He consistently shot 40% FG or lower against them for example, that doesn't get easier on the Jazz whose overall supporting cast was weaker even though Malone is there. The Pistons were able to win games in those series' then won with poor play from him. For example, 1990 Games 1, 2, and 5 were all wins without particularly impressive individual play from him, if you lose those games or if people are being critical, one would get blasted for those performances.

Of course the Jazz would also have to get to the finals first.

[CallMeKahn]

Stockton was still All-NBA in those years, so I don't see where a prime Zeke helps them.

[cam24thomas]

Karl Malone would get the ball less, and Jordan/Pippen/Harper would force IT into bad shots, so the Bulls would win 4-0.

Most likely scenario. There is huge evidence that Thomas didn't play that well vs bulls defense combine the fact that Malone wasn't that effective in the playoffs. Now mix in him getting even worse looks from Thomas and Malone's impact takes small hit as well.

During his 18 years with Utah, Karl Malone averaged 26.3 points in the playoffs, and that is higher than his 25.4 regular season average.
But I agree if you mean specifically in the NBA Finals, where he averaged 23.8 vs. Chicago 1997, and 25.0 vs. Chicago 1998, so slightly less than his regular season level.
Rodman was his worst nightmare.

[flow]

Karl Malone would get the ball less, and Jordan/Pippen/Harper would force IT into bad shots

Horrible take.

[flow]

If they did not win with Stockton why the fk would they win with Isaiah?

Stockton was still All-NBA in those years, so I don't see where a prime Zeke helps them.

Great points. There's nothing prime Isiah Thomas could do that John Stockton couldn't.... Right?