Kevin McHale over 176 games from '86 playoffs to '88 playoffs: 24.6/9.03/2.6/0.5/1.9 bpg on 65.5% TS

[BostonCouchGM]

How many other players in NBA history have an argument for being both the best paint scorer and overall defender at the same time? Giannis and LeBron? Shaq and Chuck don't have the defense, although O'Neal did finish 3rd in the 2000 DPOY.

Definitely Hakeem. Tim Duncan should be mentioned. Giannis. Embiid is close. Maybe peak Bill Walton. Wilt was probably never considered the best defender in the league when Bill was there, and Wilt wasn't an elite scorer by the time Bill retired Lebron was never considered the best overall defender in the league (but he did finish 2nd in DPOY voting in 2013). MJ won a DPOY.

I'm not sure McHale was ever considered the best overall defender in the league. He made 5 all-defensive teams (3x first team from '86-'88). People were really into Alvin Robertson and Michael Cooper back then. There was also Mark Eaton, Dennis Rodman, Sidney Moncrief, and Dennis Johnson. Then MJ and Hakeem entered the league.

But I get what you mean. Even having an argument at that is pretty cool.

Wilt was a better defender than Bill but he was on a worse team and the media and players hated him. History is written by the victors. And Wilt was leading the league in scoring every season so his identity wasn't centered around being the elite defender like Bill's was since Bill had negligible offense in comparison.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

You could have built a team around McHale but the Celtics did not do that because they did not have to. McHale could beat double teams. McHale had difficulty passing and finding the open man.

I have my doubts about him as an offensive centerpiece. I think he was too much of a finisher than a shot generator to really be the keystone of an offense, personally. YMMV, of course.

I lived those years as a Celtic fan.

McHale was as efficient a scorer as it gets, an all time great at high volume efficiency without the help of 3s.

But what happens if you ask McHale to score 40 points per game? The threat of McHale passing never helped McHale much with his shooting space because McHale was a bad passer. It would be nicer if McHale could suck in help defenders and then kick out to the open man like LeBron but McHale was bad at finding the open man.

McHale did suck in help defenders and he regularly beat help defenders. McHale was facing his man and usually a help defender and occasionally 2 help defenders. If I ask McHale to score 40 points a game McHale would face his man and 2 help defenders most of tge time and Occasionally 3 help defenders. I believe McHale can maintain a fairly high level of effiency while beating quadruple teams.

Bird feed McHale some open shots because Bird drew the help defender but that was not the basis of McHale’s success. Bird also took shots that would have gone to McHale if Bird waa not arround.

Bird did not create much more space for McHale and McHale did not need much space. McHale did fine without Bird.

McHales’s foot injury broken foot suffered at the peak of his career in late winter or early spring of 1987 was an issue. I think the story is that McHale came back from the injury too soon and that McHale playing on a broken foot in the 1987 playoffs permanently injured McHale.

I think you can ask McHale to score 40 points a game without a major decline in efficiency. The reason to allow the less eficient Bird to shoot is because the passing of Bird for efficient shots makes up for Bird not being nearly as efficient of a scorer as McHale. In no way did McHale depend on Bird. McHale was fine without Bird.

I think McHale in the current could give you a more efficient 40 points a game than Kobe could- Floor spacing barely matters for McHale. I think Kobe would benefit more from current era floor spacing from 3 point soothers than McHale wood. Usually the inside players benefit more from floor spacing because it gets rid of the help defenders. McHale beats doubles and 3 point shooters can’t get rid of the help defenders guarding McHale because McHale can’t find the open 3 point shooter so McHale might as well just beat the help defender.

[jokeboy86]

The greatest Post player in NBA history as far as I am concerned.

Only Hakeem can argue that he was equal to McHale in term of Post moves.

Here are two videos showcasing McHale's Post moves

The quality isn't good on some of these highlights but you get a sense of why he was so difficult to defend.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

;t=27s

Just noticed that McHale was a master at sealing and good look trying to front him.

[tsherkin]

McHale was as efficient a scorer as it gets, an all time great at high volume efficiency without the help of 3s.

I'm with you here. He was brilliant.

But what happens if you ask McHale to score 40 points per game? The threat of McHale passing never helped McHale much with his shooting space because McHale was a bad passer. It would be nicer if McHale could suck in help defenders and then kick out to the open man like LeBron but McHale was bad at finding the open man.

McHale did suck in help defenders and he regularly beat help defenders. McHale was facing his man and usually a help defender and occasionally 2 help defenders. If I ask McHale to score 40 points a game McHale would face his man and 2 help defenders most of tge time and Occasionally 3 help defenders. I believe McHale can maintain a fairly high level of effiency while beating quadruple teams.

I don't doubt his ability to continue scoring efficiently against significant coverage, I doubt his ability to impact a team offense to a degree sufficient to build around him as the primary star. We have seen ultra-efficient guy before (say, for example, Dantley or Amare) and they move the needle only so much.

I think you can ask McHale to score 40 points a game without a major decline in efficiency.

You've lost me. We haven't seen anyone in the league who could do that apart from Wilt, and even then, that wouldn't happen today either.

The reason to allow the less eficient Bird to shoot is because the passing of Bird for efficient shots makes up for Bird not being nearly as efficient of a scorer as McHale. In no way did McHale depend on Bird. McHale was fine without Bird.

Mmm, 82-88, Bird was a 58% TS scorer who was posting higher volume and also adding playmaking, so in terms of offensive value added, it really isn't a contest at all as to who was the more important and valuable offensive player. Not sure that's the tree you want to bark up to defend McHale's case.

I think McHale in the current could give you a more efficient 40 points a game than Kobe could-

Oh, you actually mean that rate. I can't envision a scenario where he would do what no non-Wilt player has done. Certainly not at an efficient rate.

[FrodoBaggins]

I don't think McHale was any worse of a passer than Dirk, Davis, and even Duncan and Hakeem. McHale's passing leveled up once he began starting in '85. He was definitely better than Moses Malone. Kevin's shot creation was limited by the role he was playing, the teammates he was playing with, and the system he was in.

Boston's offense was diversified and democratic; they made a point to get everyone shots. McHale's usage rate and time of possession were quite low compared to his offensive output. If he was in a similar situation to Duncan, Dirk, and Hakeem, his usage rate and time of possession would increase. He would become more of a focal point and his shot creation would increase.

McHale would have a diversified offensive game in today's league. He'd posting up more than anyone, but he'd also be thriving in the dribble hand-off and pick-and-roll. He'd be shooting threes and elbow jumpers - he had that kind of range as we know. There would be more high-quality passing opportunities playing more from the elbow, mid-post, and in PNRs and DHOs.

[FrodoBaggins]

I'd also argue that McHale's game was only mildly synergistic with Larry's game. Kevin didn't rely on him as much as Amar'e did Nash. I feel similarly about Karl Malone regarding John Stockton. We have a sample of games showing Karl was able to maintain his offensive output sans Stockton. We've also got a small sample of games that show a similar trend for McHale during his best years:

Kevin McHale played 10 games without Larry Bird between 1985 and 1987

1984-1985 (2 games)

27.0 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 1.0 apg, 0.5 spg, 1.0 bpg, on 64.5% FG (10/15.5) and 77.8% FT (7.0/9.0) [69.37% TS]

1986-1987 (8 games)

28.0 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 3.0 apg, 0.5 spg, 3.4 bpg, on 59% FG (10.6/18) and 88.5% FT (6.8/7.6) [65.59% TS]

Combined that is: (10 games)

27.8 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 2.6 apg, 0.5 spg, 2.9 bpg, on 60% FG (10.5/17.5) and 88% FT (6.8/7.8) [66.41% TS]

Kevin's output didn't crater without Larry as one might expect. Even in the '88-'89 season an aging, degenerating McHale still put up 22.5 ppg on 60.8% TS - certainly no great failure. That season had several factors that influenced the performance of the team aside from Larry's absence. A rookie coach, an aging core, lackluster youth, and a weak bench. It was a 45-win-pace team when healthy without Bird.

The team was only marginally better the next season even with Larry back. A late-season winning streak got them to 52 wins. McHale's stats didn't shoot back up to his '87 and '88 levels despite Bird being back.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

McHale was as efficient a scorer as it gets, an all time great at high volume efficiency without the help of 3s.

I'm with you here. He was brilliant.

But what happens if you ask McHale to score 40 points per game? The threat of McHale passing never helped McHale much with his shooting space because McHale was a bad passer. It would be nicer if McHale could suck in help defenders and then kick out to the open man like LeBron but McHale was bad at finding the open man.

McHale did suck in help defenders and he regularly beat help defenders. McHale was facing his man and usually a help defender and occasionally 2 help defenders. If I ask McHale to score 40 points a game McHale would face his man and 2 help defenders most of tge time and Occasionally 3 help defenders. I believe McHale can maintain a fairly high level of effiency while beating quadruple teams.

I don't doubt his ability to continue scoring efficiently against significant coverage, I doubt his ability to impact a team offense to a degree sufficient to build around him as the primary star. We have seen ultra-efficient guy before (say, for example, Dantley or Amare) and they move the needle only so much.

I think you can ask McHale to score 40 points a game without a major decline in efficiency.

You've lost me. We haven't seen anyone in the league who could do that apart from Wilt, and even then, that wouldn't happen today either.

The reason to allow the less eficient Bird to shoot is because the passing of Bird for efficient shots makes up for Bird not being nearly as efficient of a scorer as McHale. In no way did McHale depend on Bird. McHale was fine without Bird.

Mmm, 82-88, Bird was a 58% TS scorer who was posting higher volume and also adding playmaking, so in terms of offensive value added, it really isn't a contest at all as to who was the more important and valuable offensive player. Not sure that's the tree you want to bark up to defend McHale's case.

I think McHale in the current could give you a more efficient 40 points a game than Kobe could-

Oh, you actually mean that rate. I can't envision a scenario where he would do what no non-Wilt player has done. Certainly not at an efficient rate.

I think the average NBA player could score 40 points a game if he is allowed to shoot TS% 20% and is allowed for his team to lose the game.

I think McHale could shoot 40 points a game at higher than league average shooting percentages and with a permanent double team. I am talking about 40 points a game at a good percentage against a triangle and 2 with the 2 both being on McHale. But his teammates have to throw the entry pass as well as BIrd DJ and Ainge.

McHale’s high releases, variety of releases, fall away realses and smart choice of shooting gaps made it very hard to stop him once he got the ball. The defender of McHale ends up being more like a road cone than an actual defender. Who is supposed to be a credible threat to block McHale’s shot. David Robinson, Hakeem and Ralph Samson and who else? I don’t think Tim Duncan or Rudy Gobert would have any luck against McHale. I think McHale would shoot Mark Eaton because Eaton lacks the mobility to get his hand near McHale’s hand.

I think denying the entry pass would be the best strategy to defend McHale.

Having lived in the Boston area for McHale’s career and living in the SF Bay are for Curry’s career it is not hard for me to imagine McHale added to the current Warriors. Warriors have a tiny team and we want Nerlens Noel bad. With McHale added you can pretty much just concede the championship to the Warriors.

But to make the team McHale’s team I must pass 2 rule changes. 1 if any player other than McHale scores 25 points the Warriors lose. 2 if McHale does not score 40 points at higher than TS% 50% the Warriors lose. That makes the team seem like McHale’s team even if Curry is still great. Those rules also give the rest of the league a fighting chance but even with those rules I think McHale and the Warriors win the championship. Double team or triple team McHale all you want because you still can’t stop McHale from scoring 40 points at a not so good TS% 50%.

[turnaroundJ]

Could never find official measurements but he has some of the longest arms I’ve ever seen on a player. Post play is inefficient yes, for MOST players. But he was some of the best of the best.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Could never find official measurements but he has some of the longest arms I’ve ever seen on a player. Post play is inefficient yes, for MOST players. But he was some of the best of the best.

I have seen unofficial wing span measurements and standing reach measurements that are very long but nonbelievers say those measurements can’t be true.

[turnaroundJ]

Could never find official measurements but he has some of the longest arms I’ve ever seen on a player. Post play is inefficient yes, for MOST players. But he was some of the best of the best.

I have seen unofficial wing span measurements and standing reach measurements that are very long but nonbelievers say those measurements can’t be true.

Well...the "8 feet" claims were always outrageous to be fair i've never seen a serious listing

[cam24thomas]

Low-post scoring is the most difficult thing to do in sport, so much skill and timing. When I play NBA2k20 I have no idea how to score in the low-post....

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

The Celtics were just loaded in the 80s.

After trading Gerald Henderson for the Len Bias draft pick, and having Walton and Wedman retire from injury in the fall of 1986 during the 1986-1987 season the Celtics got very thin. Just playing 5 men basically with a bit of Jerry Sichting as the 6th man. Coach KC Jones did not believe in developning a bech and played his starters for almost 40 minutes a game..

With 20 20 hindsight knowing the NBA careers, and when they get injured and knowing that Len Bias will die on draft night nigh and drugs will take Washburn and Tarpey who do you draft for the Celtics with the 2nd pick?

I think I trade the 2nd pick to Dallas for the 7th pick and the 1st 2nd round pick and take Ron Harper and Mark Price.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Could never find official measurements but he has some of the longest arms I’ve ever seen on a player. Post play is inefficient yes, for MOST players. But he was some of the best of the best.

I have seen unofficial wing span measurements and standing reach measurements that are very long but nonbelievers say those measurements can’t be true.

Well...the "8 feet" claims were always outrageous to be fair i've never seen a serious listing

Internet says the average man has a wingspan 2 inches longer than his height.
McHale was 6' 10" (could be 7' 0" if you want to do the NBA height in sneakers lie)
McHale's wing span was a rediculous 8' 0".
Standing reach 9' 5"
https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/The-21-Most-Incredible-Ape-Indices-in-NBA-History

He didn't have a 8'0" wingspan, that is just a bogus number like Michael Jordan's "48" vertical" from most sites. A 9'5" standing reach from a 6'10" guy with high shoulders would give him around a 7'5" 7'6" wingspan. For comparison's sake, Tacko Fall has the highest standing reach measured at 10'2" and largest wingspan ever as well at 8'4".

McHale would look really weird if he had a 8'0" wingspan and only a 9'5" standing reach. He was also shorter than Kevin Garnett, so he wasn't 7 feet tall with shoes.

He is shorter than KG. McHale is 6' 10" and probably a half. KG is something like 6' 11" and probably a half. The NBA norm is to add about an inch and a half to the bare foot height (which I think is a stupid lie because everybody else measures barefoot). Both KG and McHale and other guys like Keven Durant rejected letting their height be exaggerated. They did not want to be called 7 foot tall

McHale really did look weird. I don't know if the 8 foot wing span is true but he definitely had a longer wingspan in proprtion to his body than any other big man I can think of.

The 8 foot Wing Span is repeated over and over on the Internet and in Internet articles. The 9' 5" standing reach I just saw in one place. The place that said McHale had a 9' 5" sanding reach also said Shaq had a 9' 5" standing reach. If Shaq is 2 and a half inches taller than McHale and Has the same standing reach as McHale that would imply that McHale's arm is about 2 and a half inches longer than Shaq's arm. Shaq's wingspan is listed as 7' 7". If McHales 2 arms together are 5 inches longer than Shaq's arms then their shoulder to shoulder measuremeant would have to equal for McHale to have a 5 inch larger wingspan than Shaq. There is a problem there because Shaq is broad shouldered and McHale is more narrow shouldered. McHale did have the most freakishly long wingspan I ever saw but the 8' 0" is probably exaggerated by 2 inches.

Presumably Dwight Howard go measured and 8 foot wingspan for McHale is only 2 inches longer than Dwight Howard’s 7’ 10”
Rondo is 6’ 1” with a 6’ 9” wingspan and I did not really notice Rondo having freakishly long arms but I noticed McHale having freakishly long arms.

[FrodoBaggins]

The thing about McHale is that he's 6'10" barefoot. He's very similar to Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett in height; McHale would've been listed as 6'11" in the 2000s. He was listed as 6'11" in college and was actually heavier at 230 pounds. He might've actually gone up to as much as 240 pounds by his senior year. You can see his heavier composition in the video below:

Watch on YouTube

You can see his listed stats in the 1978-79 Minnesota Basketball Guide:

[FrodoBaggins]

I have seen unofficial wing span measurements and standing reach measurements that are very long but nonbelievers say those measurements can’t be true.

Well...the "8 feet" claims were always outrageous to be fair i've never seen a serious listing

Internet says the average man has a wingspan 2 inches longer than his height.
McHale was 6' 10" (could be 7' 0" if you want to do the NBA height in sneakers lie)
McHale's wing span was a rediculous 8' 0".
Standing reach 9' 5"
https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/The-21-Most-Incredible-Ape-Indices-in-NBA-History

He didn't have a 8'0" wingspan, that is just a bogus number like Michael Jordan's "48" vertical" from most sites. A 9'5" standing reach from a 6'10" guy with high shoulders would give him around a 7'5" 7'6" wingspan. For comparison's sake, Tacko Fall has the highest standing reach measured at 10'2" and largest wingspan ever as well at 8'4".

McHale would look really weird if he had a 8'0" wingspan and only a 9'5" standing reach. He was also shorter than Kevin Garnett, so he wasn't 7 feet tall with shoes.

He is shorter than KG. McHale is 6' 10" and probably a half. KG is something like 6' 11" and probably a half. The NBA norm is to add about an inch and a half to the bare foot height (which I think is a stupid lie because everybody else measures barefoot). Both KG and McHale and other guys like Keven Durant rejected letting their height be exaggerated. They did not want to be called 7 foot tall

McHale really did look weird. I don't know if the 8 foot wing span is true but he definitely had a longer wingspan in proprtion to his body than any other big man I can think of.

The 8 foot Wing Span is repeated over and over on the Internet and in Internet articles. The 9' 5" standing reach I just saw in one place. The place that said McHale had a 9' 5" sanding reach also said Shaq had a 9' 5" standing reach. If Shaq is 2 and a half inches taller than McHale and Has the same standing reach as McHale that would imply that McHale's arm is about 2 and a half inches longer than Shaq's arm. Shaq's wingspan is listed as 7' 7". If McHales 2 arms together are 5 inches longer than Shaq's arms then their shoulder to shoulder measuremeant would have to equal for McHale to have a 5 inch larger wingspan than Shaq. There is a problem there because Shaq is broad shouldered and McHale is more narrow shouldered. McHale did have the most freakishly long wingspan I ever saw but the 8' 0" is probably exaggerated by 2 inches.

Presumably Dwight Howard go measured and 8 foot wingspan for McHale is only 2 inches longer than Dwight Howard’s 7’ 10”
Rondo is 6’ 1” with a 6’ 9” wingspan and I did not really notice Rondo having freakishly long arms but I noticed McHale having freakishly long arms.

McHale's wingspan and standing reach have intrigued me too. There are always moments when I stop the game footage because Kevin's arms look comically long. DeMarcus Cousins is 6'9.5" barefoot, has a 9'5" standing reach, and a 7'5.75" wingspan. McHale is taller and appears longer, even compared to skinny DMC.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I have seen unofficial wing span measurements and standing reach measurements that are very long but nonbelievers say those measurements can’t be true.

Well...the "8 feet" claims were always outrageous to be fair i've never seen a serious listing

Internet says the average man has a wingspan 2 inches longer than his height.
McHale was 6' 10" (could be 7' 0" if you want to do the NBA height in sneakers lie)
McHale's wing span was a rediculous 8' 0".
Standing reach 9' 5"
https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/The-21-Most-Incredible-Ape-Indices-in-NBA-History

He didn't have a 8'0" wingspan, that is just a bogus number like Michael Jordan's "48" vertical" from most sites. A 9'5" standing reach from a 6'10" guy with high shoulders would give him around a 7'5" 7'6" wingspan. For comparison's sake, Tacko Fall has the highest standing reach measured at 10'2" and largest wingspan ever as well at 8'4".

McHale would look really weird if he had a 8'0" wingspan and only a 9'5" standing reach. He was also shorter than Kevin Garnett, so he wasn't 7 feet tall with shoes.

He is shorter than KG. McHale is 6' 10" and probably a half. KG is something like 6' 11" and probably a half. The NBA norm is to add about an inch and a half to the bare foot height (which I think is a stupid lie because everybody else measures barefoot). Both KG and McHale and other guys like Keven Durant rejected letting their height be exaggerated. They did not want to be called 7 foot tall

McHale really did look weird. I don't know if the 8 foot wing span is true but he definitely had a longer wingspan in proprtion to his body than any other big man I can think of.

The 8 foot Wing Span is repeated over and over on the Internet and in Internet articles. The 9' 5" standing reach I just saw in one place. The place that said McHale had a 9' 5" sanding reach also said Shaq had a 9' 5" standing reach. If Shaq is 2 and a half inches taller than McHale and Has the same standing reach as McHale that would imply that McHale's arm is about 2 and a half inches longer than Shaq's arm. Shaq's wingspan is listed as 7' 7". If McHales 2 arms together are 5 inches longer than Shaq's arms then their shoulder to shoulder measuremeant would have to equal for McHale to have a 5 inch larger wingspan than Shaq. There is a problem there because Shaq is broad shouldered and McHale is more narrow shouldered. McHale did have the most freakishly long wingspan I ever saw but the 8' 0" is probably exaggerated by 2 inches.

Presumably Dwight Howard go measured and 8 foot wingspan for McHale is only 2 inches longer than Dwight Howard’s 7’ 10”
Rondo is 6’ 1” with a 6’ 9” wingspan and I did not really notice Rondo having freakishly long arms but I noticed McHale having freakishly long arms.

Dwight Howard has a 7'4.5" wingspan, his height/wingspan were measured when he came into the league.

https://www.nba.com/stats/draft/combine-anthro?SeasonYear=2004-05

Mo Bamba has the largest wingspan of any active player, his was 7'10" and he had a 9'7" standing reach. The only verified 8 foot wingspan on record is Tacko Fall which comes straight from the combine at 8'2.5" and a 10'2.5" standing reach, it is the only 8 foot + wingspan in the entire database that goes back around 22 years. There's unofficial numbers like Manute Bol, but that's believable because of how tall he was, and also Victor allegedly has an 8 foot wingspan as well, all of these guys are over 7'4".

It is highly unlikely McHale had a 8 foot wingspan, at most we're looking at between 7'5" to 7'9", the latter number would be more than Rudy Gobert too.

[formula 400]

wouldnt make it alive in today's game though.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Backs shrink with age but I don’t think arms do. Come on McHale, get measred.

[tsherkin]

I think the average NBA player could score 40 points a game if he is allowed to shoot TS% 20% and is allowed for his team to lose the game.

Sure, that makes sense. If you're just chucking and then you don't have to worry about passing and you're not concerned with it being a worthwhile possession, sure. That won't actually happen, so it's sort of moot.

I think McHale could shoot 40 points a game at higher than league average shooting percentages and with a permanent double team. I am talking about 40 points a game at a good percentage against a triangle and 2 with the 2 both being on McHale. But his teammates have to throw the entry pass as well as BIrd DJ and Ainge.

Unlikely. 40+ ppg has happened from one player in league history, and there have been lots of teams that have needed more scoring than they had. McHale didn't have a LOT of range, and in real NBA basketball even in the 80s, teams would do their best to deny the entry pass and otherwise frustrate him out of his spots to an extent that would really make his life difficult and erode his efficiency.

Like, no. He doesn't have the on-court mobility or range to manage it. He could have scored more than he did, for sure, and he showed that well enough in 87. But 40 ppg is an unreasonable threshold. He managed 26 in 40 mpg. And from 84-92, he was a 29.5 PTS100 type of guy, and was pretty consistent about it. Yeah, he was on Boston and yeah there were other scorers and such, so you can look at that a little, but 40 is a pretty specific threshold. If neither Jordan nor Kobe could manage that and if we still haven't seen it in this era of perimeter scoring, there's basically a 0% chance that you'd have seen that from McHale except if you ported him back into the 60s and played him the way they played Wilt early in his career.

Having lived in the Boston area for McHale’s career and living in the SF Bay are for Curry’s career it is not hard for me to imagine McHale added to the current Warriors. Warriors have a tiny team and we want Nerlens Noel bad. With McHale added you can pretty much just concede the championship to the Warriors.

McHale on that frontline would be horrific for the rest of the league, agreed.

[dhsilv2]

But I was told that post play was inefficient? How can this be???

Mid range jumpers are too. Unless you're an all time great at them....